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Author Topic: Xantid Swarm: Still possibly usable in Long?  (Read 2694 times)
Stormanimagus
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« on: March 11, 2008, 06:23:05 pm »

Hey guys. I have a very simple question, and depending on the wise insight of all you TMD Vintage peoples I will choose to run this guy or not in my Long lists.

Question: Is Xantid Swarm too outdated for modern day Grim-Long/Long Variants? Could it still be used successfully and does it give you anything that the alternative disruption does not?

My main reason for liking Swarm in the past is that it completely negates the drawback of a Draw 7 because you are clear to play all of your spells for the turn.

Thoughts?
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« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2008, 11:23:11 pm »

What do Xantids provide?
they provide protection against Force of Will, which is played by every deck running  {U}
they provide protection against Drains, which is played by Drain Tendrils, Control Slaver, Tyrant  {U} and Tog.

Essentially it provides protection against  {U} control elements and prevents the casting of Brain Freeze when you cast a top deck tutor.

What's the cost?
You must run reliable  {G} sources to facilitate Xantids.
You must resolve a Xantid and pass the turn or resolve a Timewalk to make them effective.

I think you need to look at a few things:  How controling is the meta you play in?  Are there a large number of Drain decks?, is the meta relativly slow in terms of the average turn in which the competition wins? and how fast is the deck you are piloting vs. your ability to see the fastest/most reliable path to victory.

In concerns to the last element, you shouled be aware that a deck like Grim Long, requires very little in terms of counter measures to win a game/match in the hands of a well versed pilot.  On the other hand, a Grim Long list can be disasterous in the hands of a player that cannot see beyond the obvious lines of play that ANY Tendrils/Yawg'sWill list provides.

If you are intermediate or new in nature (be honest with yourself) to Tendrils/Will lists, then playing Tropical Storm with Xantids might be a good match for you.  To be honest, if I played Grim Long, I would make an unacceptable number of play mistakes, and would opt for Ponder Long (Super Long) or Tropical Storm to suit my play abilities/style.

Haunted.
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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2008, 12:18:00 am »

What do Xantids provide?
they provide protection against Force of Will, which is played by every deck running  {U}
they provide protection against Drains, which is played by Drain Tendrils, Control Slaver, Tyrant  {U} and Tog.

Essentially it provides protection against  {U} control elements and prevents the casting of Brain Freeze when you cast a top deck tutor.

What's the cost?
You must run reliable  {G} sources to facilitate Xantids.
You must resolve a Xantid and pass the turn or resolve a Timewalk to make them effective.

I think you need to look at a few things:  How controling is the meta you play in?  Are there a large number of Drain decks?, is the meta relativly slow in terms of the average turn in which the competition wins? and how fast is the deck you are piloting vs. your ability to see the fastest/most reliable path to victory.

In concerns to the last element, you shouled be aware that a deck like Grim Long, requires very little in terms of counter measures to win a game/match in the hands of a well versed pilot.  On the other hand, a Grim Long list can be disasterous in the hands of a player that cannot see beyond the obvious lines of play that ANY Tendrils/Yawg'sWill list provides.

If you are intermediate or new in nature (be honest with yourself) to Tendrils/Will lists, then playing Tropical Storm with Xantids might be a good match for you.  To be honest, if I played Grim Long, I would make an unacceptable number of play mistakes, and would opt for Ponder Long (Super Long) or Tropical Storm to suit my play abilities/style.

Haunted.


Agreed on your points for the most part.

Answer number 1: I play in the Northeast metagame (the biggest and most vibrant Vintage metagame around? The only consistently active metagame around? The metagame of TMD players), and usually only have time for the big Stradfordbury events.

Answer number 2: I wouldn't call myself a masterful Vintage player like ELD, or Rich Shay or Stephen Menendian, but I think most of that is due to lack of experience and not being up-to-date on metagame switches and cardpool changes and stuff like that. Vintage is just soooo vast in cardpool that it can be difficult to keep up on the latest "tech". . . until someone pwns you with it! However, all of that aside, I think that I am most comfortable piloting at the head of the Ritual/Yawgwin steamship and I always have been, oddly enough. You'd think that Storm combo would be one of the most difficult things to master and require a deep knowledge of the card pool, but I actually like how everything is compacted in to a couple turns and you basically have to keep track of only what might kill you. I find that fish players and control players must be far more versed in the current card pools as games can go long and many different card interactions will come up.

Storm combo is difficult because it requires extremely tight play and foresight. Kinda like chess. However, I think it does not require as much knowledge of the cardpool as you can generally gather what might beat you and usually the number of cards that might beat you in a given situation can be counted on one hand Smile. I like mathematical puzzles and I find the "Storm Math" to be exciting when you are trying to find some way to eek out 20 points of damage (or less depending) to your opponent before they gain control of the game and end you. High stakes, but high rewards.

I really like that Storm Combo doesn't tie often too because of its speed. I hate ties at tournaments. They are so lame.
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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2008, 01:55:06 pm »

I believe Xantid swarm has been replaced by Thoughtseize realistically.  In all cases where you can cast a  {G} creature and pass the turn you could tap  {B} and duress or thoughtseize.  Duress/Seize are far superior because they can be used off Dark Ritual mana.  There ar emany cases where you will cast Dark ritual and duress/seize into will for the win, whereas with swarm you do need to pass the turn.  You also need to dilute your mana base off  {U}/ {B} to play a subpar card. Coming frmo a combo player, i'd rather have a duress or thoughtseize rather than a swarm any day.
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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2008, 02:17:24 pm »

I believe Xantid swarm has been replaced by Thoughtseize realistically.  In all cases where you can cast a  {G} creature and pass the turn you could tap  {B} and duress or thoughtseize.  Duress/Seize are far superior because they can be used off Dark Ritual mana.  There ar emany cases where you will cast Dark ritual and duress/seize into will for the win, whereas with swarm you do need to pass the turn.  You also need to dilute your mana base off  {U}/ {B} to play a subpar card. Coming frmo a combo player, i'd rather have a duress or thoughtseize rather than a swarm any day.

Agreed, but does this mean we can't play the draw 7's anymore? I mean, it would kinda suck to Thoughtseize away FoW and then cast a draw 7 only to put it back into their hand, right?
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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2008, 03:48:38 pm »

I believe Xantid swarm has been replaced by Thoughtseize realistically.  In all cases where you can cast a  {G} creature and pass the turn you could tap  {B} and duress or thoughtseize.  Duress/Seize are far superior because they can be used off Dark Ritual mana.  There ar emany cases where you will cast Dark ritual and duress/seize into will for the win, whereas with swarm you do need to pass the turn.  You also need to dilute your mana base off  {U}/ {B} to play a subpar card. Coming frmo a combo player, i'd rather have a duress or thoughtseize rather than a swarm any day.

Agreed, but does this mean we can't play the draw 7's anymore? I mean, it would kinda suck to Thoughtseize away FoW and then cast a draw 7 only to put it back into their hand, right?

In my years of playing combo i've come to a realization on draw7's.  I play Timetwister due to its raw power and so I can reshuffle failed bombs or tendrils / will into my library.  I personally hate Wheel of Fortune / Windfall because I would rather tutor for exactly what I want then chancing a crapshoot at what I can get. 

In regards to your question, there are more chances to duress/thoughtseize again after a draw 7 then to have them have a force of will.  If your running 7 duress effects and can manage to leave a black up for ritual or duress to pick their force your in great shape.
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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2008, 04:00:34 pm »

Don't most people just Ponder/Brainstorm into mana rather than casting Draw 7s?
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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2008, 10:14:56 pm »

I believe Xantid swarm has been replaced by Thoughtseize realistically.  In all cases where you can cast a  {G} creature and pass the turn you could tap  {B} and duress or thoughtseize.  Duress/Seize are far superior because they can be used off Dark Ritual mana.  There ar emany cases where you will cast Dark ritual and duress/seize into will for the win, whereas with swarm you do need to pass the turn.  You also need to dilute your mana base off  {U}/ {B} to play a subpar card. Coming frmo a combo player, i'd rather have a duress or thoughtseize rather than a swarm any day.

Agreed, but does this mean we can't play the draw 7's anymore? I mean, it would kinda suck to Thoughtseize away FoW and then cast a draw 7 only to put it back into their hand, right?

In my years of playing combo i've come to a realization on draw7's.  I play Timetwister due to its raw power and so I can reshuffle failed bombs or tendrils / will into my library.  I personally hate Wheel of Fortune / Windfall because I would rather tutor for exactly what I want then chancing a crapshoot at what I can get. 

In regards to your question, there are more chances to duress/thoughtseize again after a draw 7 then to have them have a force of will.  If your running 7 duress effects and can manage to leave a black up for ritual or duress to pick their force your in great shape.

Agreed. I played against a guy tonight (just for fun) Running Old school Morphling Control and he had 4 FoW 2-3 Misd., 4 Drain and plenty of dig for those cards. I was playing a list of my own that runs FoW and 3 MD Duress. I won 2-1 against him. After SB we also have access to good stuff like Extirpate. Extirpate is great at just shutting down Tyrant Oath if you can Duress out or FoW the Oath Turn 1 and then Extirpate it turn 2. We also have potentially some REB for that matchup.

Thanks guys. I think you have me sold on not running Xantid. There are too many powerful decks out there right now that run a full suite of disruption and can win very quickly. Xantid just won't cut it against those decks.
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« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2008, 03:05:51 pm »

Xantid Swarm, it seems to me, has become less popular just because of how fast and proactive the decks have become.  Whereas, in the past Storm combo had a good turn and a half on the other combo-control decks (control slaver, gifts, et cetera) now that gap has been considerably closed by decks like GAT, Gush Tendrils, and Dredge decks. 

Not to mention the dwindling popularity of Mana Drain, plays a big part in why the Swarm has disappeared from Tendrils sideboards.  I think that Swarm is a fantastically powerful card--and speaking from the point of view of a guy who loves to play Drains--I can assure you that there are few cards I hate more than a Xantid Swarm.  However, until there are more counterspell oriented decks, I don't expect that Swarms will see too much play.
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« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2008, 04:59:30 pm »

One thing to remember is that back in the past, most decks did not have mainboard removal or they would just side it out.   These days, we have extremely versatile cards like Repeal and Engineered Explosives that can be used effectively, regardless of matchup.  I think that is the main reason for Xantids power to be on the downfall.
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« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2008, 11:49:45 pm »

Well, Oath is part of it for me, but also in terms of the opposing disruption.  Xantid Swarm doesn't stop Duress or Extirpate, nor does it stop Sphere of Resistance or Thorn of Amethyst.  If you're already in blue, why not just run Force of Will instead?  Long decks are contracting in the number of colors they play; we left the days of 4 City of Brass 4 Gemstone Mine 2 Forbidden Orchard decks a long time ago.
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