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Author Topic: Is Keeper any good nowadays?  (Read 3022 times)
LennoxLewis86
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« on: April 01, 2008, 11:34:50 am »

After a long break from Magic I'm thinking of making my comeback.. I used to play a lot of Extended and Standard but I was always a great fan of the Vintage format.
I just didn't have the money to buy power or other good cards to build a competitive deck. Now I do have the money and also the desire to play tournaments.
I've always loved Keeper as a vintage deck. It just has a lot of cool cards and I only feel comfortable playing control decks. When playing combo decks or hate decks I make more mistakes and always have the weird feeling my opponent has answers.. A way to disrupt my combo when playing combo or overwhelming my hate cards with just too much top tier stuff when playing a ''hate deck''.. The deck I want to play also has combo elements but I think almost all control decks have that, right?
I have read a bit about what's being played today but I've been away too long to have any clue of what's good and what's bad..

I've been thinking of something like this:

1 x Black Lotus
1 x Ancestral Recall
1 x Time Walk
1 x Mox Sapphire
1 x Mox Jet
1 x Mox Ruby
1 x Mox Emerald
1 x Mox Pearl
1 x Sol Ring
1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Mystical Tutor
1 x Crucible of Worlds
1 x Zuran Orb
1 x Fastbond
1 x Future Sight
4 x Brainstorm
4 x FoW
4 x mana Drain
1 x Balance
1 x Regrowth
1 x Yawg's Will
2 x StP
1 x Tinker
1 x Colossus
3 x Cunning Wish
1 x Disenchant
2 x Exalted Angel
2 x Stifle
4 x Flooded Strand
3 x tundra
2 x Underground Sea
1 x Tropical Island
1 x City of Brass
4 x Wasteland
1 x Strip Mine
1 x Tolarian Academy
1 x LoA

I think this is pretty solid, correct me if I'm wrong..

My SB is a mess, I absolutely don't know what to do with it.. All I know is that Cunning Wish is a very, very good card.. I just don't know how to abuse it.. When playtesting the deck I am pitching it to FoW more often then actually playing the card.. I'm doing something wrong!

I don't know what to put in, maybe Engineered Plague because it takes care of a lot of annoying creatures..
Maybe Tormod's Crypt? I have no idea.. Before SB'ing I do pretty good but because of Cunning Wish I don't have enough slots left to have an answer against most threats.. Could anyone help me out here? Which changes/additions would work? And most importantly.. Is this deck any good in the first place?

Any comment is welcome, as long as you're commenting on the deck..

LL86

ps. I'm thinking of cutting Tolarian Academy and playing an extra City of Brass but when Academy is nice to me I love him too much to cut..








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Kaiser von Hugal
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« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2008, 11:59:30 am »

Extripate and thoughtseize - Id make room for these for when you play against Flash.deck
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LennoxLewis86
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« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2008, 12:12:38 pm »

Thoughtseize is a great card to play, I agree.. It would definately make a good SB card! Against flash I already have a fighting chance..
If I don't lose the dice roll I have 4 Force, 2 Stifle and 2 StP (which helps best against the Carrion Feeder/Fanatic build but also slows down the Sliver build)
After sideboarding I have an extra stifle and StP which increase my chances..
How many Thoughtseize should I play SB? I'm thinking 3?


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nero angelo
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« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2008, 07:07:44 am »

Leyline of the Void helps greatly in Ichorid Matchups, so as in Flash.

SB should include Energy Flux, wash the Workshop based decks to nothingness.

Against Oath, Curfew MAY be good, especially if they are packing (and will be packing) Simic Sky Swallower. StP should work if they have no SSS.

What's your plan against aggro decks? (Goblines, FCG, R/G Beats and the like?)

Sui Black should be a bad matchup, unless you drew enough card drawers to recover from discarders. Extirpate is really a bad news for you, especially if the target is Drain or FoW.

Basic Lands is a tech nowadays, especially most, if not all, mono-red or red based decks are running Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon SB'd or MD'd.

Just my 2 cents.
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LennoxLewis86
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« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2008, 12:22:05 pm »

Leyline of the Void is a card I should play, but I've never played against Ichorid and I kinda beat Flash most of the time anyway..  I'm playing 3 Annul SB now, I think Energy Flux is more effective but I play 5 Moxen and 5 other artifacts too.. (I like Tinker/DSC and Lotus, Sol Ring both stay after SB) Annul is also very good against Oath and doesn't blow up in my own face..
Curfew is a good card, and I'll play him once in my SB as a wish target. But with Annul, I already have three extra hate cards against Oath. Backed up by FoW's, Mana Drains and Wastelands/Strip Mine>StP (to plow my own spirits) I think the Oath match-up maybe is in my favor..? I have a hard time against Aggro decks, ESPECIALLY against Magus of the Moon. They pressure me, force out my removal and counters too early. And unless I have a really good hand and make no mistakes, it's gg  Sad

Running basics will be hard in this deck, but is it a crazy idea to have 1 Plains and 1 Island in my SB to board in against those decks? I can fetch for both, have  {U} for brainstorms and  {W} for StP! I also have Disenchants to destroy the Blood Moons but without access to  {B} it still is a tough creature to deal with.

Against Aggro I experimented with Engineered Plague: it works against Sliver-Flash, but also the Fanatic build, Oath, Goblins and especially that annoying little Goblin Welder. It comes a little late but I play counters so 1 or 2 counters is enough, I resolve Plague and it's their turn to do something about it.. It gives me the time to take control of the game.

Yes, Sui Black is a bad match-up, Hymn absolutely destroys me and FoW'ing it is often times just as bad.. I can do funny tricks like Misdirecting a Sinkhole but it kinda stops there. I have no hand left and get beat to death by Negators and/or Hypnotic Specters.. Luckily, Sui Black is very bad against most other good decks in Vintage so I decided not to waste any SB slots to that potential match-up. I just hope for a sick hand IF I ever face them on tournaments, which is unlikely right? What other decks does Sui Black beat? You guys know better then me.

So I want to save 3 slots for Annul, Vampiric Tutor, 2 x StP, 2 x Engineered Plague? Stifle, Stroke of Genious, REB and Disenchant. I have 3 slots left which I could use for Thoughtseize against Combo decks but maybe there are better ideas out there, I could cut the Plagues but it's a reliable card and works against multiple decks. Stroke of Genious isn't that great.. It's just another way to kill someone via Crucible, Orb, Fastbond, Wish.. Sometimes I use it to draw sick amounts of cards but whenever that happens I'm often already winning big time, it's not like someone is going to Channel/Fireball me and I use Mana Drain into Wish>Stroke.. I counter important stuff and they don't cost a lot of mana most of the time. Is the other kill condition in the deck so important? I think so but Angels or Colossus do the trick most of the time! What do you think?

Stifle is great! Disenchant in the SB is sometimes good as a Wishtarget but as an extra SB card against the right cards he is actually very good. Combined with other hate cards I found out after some testing that 2 Disenchants after SB against the right decks is killing. Vamp Tutor is good to play in your SB in this type of deck, I heard this from a friend. Tested it and it does work, It really took me a while to figure out that Wishes are VERY good with Mana Drains haha.. I always thought Wishing for an answer was too slow but I've just returned to the game so give me a break,   Smile

REB for obvious reasons but I think I have at least 3 slots left.. Thoughtseize?




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Kaiser von Hugal
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« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2008, 12:52:45 pm »

Thoughtsieze helps against Flash, Magnus of the Moon and Blood Moon  to name a few...
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LennoxLewis86
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« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2008, 02:18:38 pm »

Yeah, it is a great card if I happen to catch one of those spells that ruin my deck. Asside from resolving Tinker/DSC better and forcing in a Yawgmoth's Will I don't see this card do anything about a good topdeck from my oppo.. My main answer to Magus/Moon would be StP and Disenchant aside from counter back-up.. I've thought of the idea of running basic lands SB to avoid the non-basics lock.. Should I rather play 2 Islands or 1 Island, 1 Plains? If lucky I can get out two Islands before Magus resolves, IF he resolves. Then have Drain online. This could make up for the land-lock. That way I could Wish for REB to finish off Magus/Blood Moon.

Thoughtseize is great against combodecks. But I pretty much got combo covered with this build. I can Stifle all sorts of combo stuff, I play 8 counters and some essential cards main as well as side to hate on the important combo pieces. I'd rather play basic lands SB to battle Back to Basics, Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon, Wastelands and Crucibles instead of hoping to snatch it early and praying that he doesn't topdeck one. Like I said earlier, the control aspect of this deck makes me more relaxed and a better player.

With that being said, this is what my SB looks like now:

1 Disenchant
1 StP
1 Stifle
1 REB
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Misdirection
2 Engineered Plague
3 Annul
2 Island
2 Energy Flux

I thought about the Energy Flux to improve my match-up against Shop based decks that you often play against.

What do you guys think? Is the Island plan any good? I haven't really tested it and a Magus resolving would still be devastating because I only have 4 Fetch, 2 Island PSB. And when Magus/Moon resolves both Islands have to be there to make the Drain-Wish play work, otherwise I can only hope to float white in order to plow/disenchant.. Those slots could be used differently but I will try this out, I can't change my manabase because this base is just right at supporting 4 colors. Sometimes I get screwed, I'll get really screwed if I start to run basics maindeck.

Any other good cards that are most effective against Moon effects?

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nero angelo
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« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2008, 10:20:28 pm »

^

In our meta, most of the decks run basics (well, except for Staxx and Ichorid).

They hate being Mooned (yeah, invented the term) and being wastelanded.

IMO, 3 colors and up SHOULD NOT/CANNOT run basics, for if they would, they might and probably will suffer screwness.
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hvndr3d y34r h3x
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« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2008, 12:01:46 am »

In my meta there is usually a lot of shop, and also a lot of people running primarily 2 color mana basses with a 3 splash, occasionally a 4th. 90% of the time they run a basic or 2 in there mana base.
I'd say running 3/4 colors most definitely should run a fetch able basic or 2. I provides protection against wast lock.

in short, I disagree with nero
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nero angelo
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« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2008, 12:52:55 am »

^

Hmm, now that you've said it... maybe Basics DO fit 3 color decks.  Very Happy

But I find it hard, still. Wink
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LennoxLewis86
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« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2008, 02:47:15 am »

A possibility would be to to cut my Tolarian Academy and play 1 basic Island main. Pack another Island SB, I could board abandon {G} after SB, exchanging Tropical for Island. Board out Regrowth and Fastbond (I'm not playing Gush, making it far less important for the deck) and go with 3 colors, making my manabase far less vulnurable. It doesn't solve the Pre-SB problems since {U} hardly doesn't have any answers except for counters and Wish into REB..


I kinda left out the yardhate but I haven't seen exactly how explosive Ichorid is and I tend to have little difficulty with combo decks as oppposed to good Aggro decks or heavy disruption..
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LennoxLewis86
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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2008, 10:09:50 am »

Kinda found out that a 4 color control deck isn't really competitive enough to compete with the fast tier 1 decks. I get colorscrewed a lot since I play 5 Strip effects which don't do that much for me since decks like Flash, Ichorid and Gush decks aren't affected that much..
I prefer to fight fire with fire so I'm trying out the Sliver kill Flash deck.. Kinda lame and not original but as a returning and relative ''new'' player to Vintage, Flash is most likely the easiest deck to play.. Gives me the chance to get to know what decks are being played..
I hate it when losing takes me 10 seconds and winning takes me about an hour with headaches, I hate that!

So I have to take back that I like playing controldecks.. Maybe in limited formats.. But here in Vintage (with still very limited skill) I found out that I get decapicated cause I have difficulty making optimal plays and with this deck you have to make A LOT of decisions..

I also found that the deck is pretty good at responding to threats but has difficulty making thegame.. It's too passive for my taste..
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