[Deck]Not Quite Goblins.

[nero angelo]

How are we gonna race for Angels?

6 damage a turn puts you in a whopping 4 turn clock that starts ticking the moment it lands into play. And that's only w/ a single Angel. Obviously, If we are racing damage, Goblins will ALWAYS have more critters than Oath. Meaning, every upkeep, Oath will trigger. Meaning there would be atleast 2 Angels swinging in for the 6 per turn that CAN block next turn and live to see another day because of the Pro Red - Redirect damage to Pro Red.

Your best damage dealers, namely Gargadon and Piledriver, will be blocked and one of them will die, the other wouldn't touch you. And once again, next turn, Angels will attack and WILL deal 6 damage minimum, 12 maximum.

Oh, how do you plan to "un-suspend" Gargadon that fast? You said we should race damage to Oath. I assume that you wouldn't be saccing goblins into gargadon, only their Spirit Tokens. By the time you have the swarm, you are below 0 life. (Well again, if your opening hand was Lotus, Wachief, Mox Mountain,2 Piledriver and Lackey, plus your topdeck was Matron. And Oath does not counter them.)

REB would be oh so useful if your opening hand packs atleast 3 of it, which should repel FoW's coming to stop the swarm, which is very unlikely.


That's why I went in the Bombardment plan. Though slow, it will assure that Oath players could not land a huge critter that eats any red deck it encounters.

I don't know, all my arguments here are based on the matches I've faced and based on the meta here in my place. So maybe that's the reason we have different views on matters.

My 2 cents.

PS:

I do agree however on the 6 Fetchland thing. Yes and yes, Goblins are hungry for mana mid game. 

Pithing Needle is also a crappy board on Goblins. It does not stop GaT, it does not stop Staxx, It does not stop Ichorid (It slows it, but you have LotV for that, It does not stop Sliver Flash (LotV once again) it does, however, disables Reviellark Flash (which once again, the job of LotV).

[the boogie man]

If you want to race them with the gargadon plan, you just play normally until they drop an oath, then you suspend gargadon. They can't counter the suspending, so you just wait, restock your hand, then alpha swing. You could even hold back a couple of threats and wait. If they counter the gargadon, you can probably find another one, or maybe you've even built up enough of a hand to win. If they bounce it, play it again. Don't forget, gargadon has haste.

And I didn't think people played with angels anymore.

[kaos42069]

Coyoteugly YOu have just proven my point about how RUDE and annoying you really are. My statement was that you have to have:

Black mana on turn 2. "you need turn 2 black mana mana" Never once did i say ANYTHING about double black.

But since you feel so inclined to put other people down to make yourself feel better. TRY building your own deck and get off someone elses coat tails. Either find a way to make constructive criticism. Or don't bother replying to the post.
 
You made a decent point regarding the pyrostatic pillar. I agreed with you. But you need to grow up and stop trying to put other people's ideas down, and either offer the reason yours is better in a decent way, or just leave that to the person who made your deck.

The reason there are 2 threads, is because there are 2 totally different deck ideas.

[The Atog Lord]

Verbal Warning to coyoteuglly for Flaming.
"But this is the last time I answer a question of yours in which you state something obviously stupid"

Verbal Warning to kaos42069 for Flaming.
"Coyoteugly YOu have just proven my point about how RUDE and annoying you really are."

This is a thread for discussing Goblins, not for verbal battles. Do not flame anyone else in this thread. Anything more from anyone and this thread is locked.

[nero angelo]

If you want to race them with the gargadon plan, you just play normally until they drop an oath, then you suspend gargadon. They can't counter the suspending, so you just wait, restock your hand, then alpha swing. You could even hold back a couple of threats and wait. If they counter the gargadon, you can probably find another one, or maybe you've even built up enough of a hand to win. If they bounce it, play it again. Don't forget, gargadon has haste.

And I didn't think people played with angels anymore.

Like I said, we all have different metas.

Here, Angels are still in use. Simic Sky Swallower usually either stays on board, unless we are dominated by targetted spells such as StP, cycled Incinerators and such. (Haven't fought against TyrantOath... )

Well, I guess it all depends on the meta in our area. .


At all:

Please do keep our discussion flame-free. It makes it healthier and makes the thread last longer, thus enabling us to brainstorm with more ideas to keep Goblins in play.

Thanks!

[the boogie man]

but the angels wont hit play if you keep sacrificing spirits and goblins to gargadon. You get to swing before they do with gargadon, and if you have a pretty saucy hand  with ringleader, you can definitely hit them real hard in that one-turn opening.

[nero angelo]

ohh...

But yous said "play normally". And goblins "play normally" by developing a swarm.

Anyways, will try Gargadon sometime. 

hahaha!


BTW, aside from Oath, what are the "hardest" matchups for Goblins?

is Sui-Black still poses a threat? or We sumply remove their boarded Plagues via Earwigs?

[chief]

The problem with all these theoretical difficulties racing oath is that your theoretical seems to be assuming they have oath on turn one.  This is often not the case.  Also, as coyote mentioned, around us nobody plays the angels anymore.  The angel version of oath is admittedly nasty but you can either have gargadon out of the board or just try and sqaud out their angels before they activate oath.  The poster who said "play normally" was just saying that you can have gargs suspended and swarm the board until they find their oath.  Once they put it into play, you start sacking dudes so that they can't activate.

As far as "hard" matches, storm combo can be difficult, and flash can get sticky as well.  I haven't come across a sui black deck in ages...but if i did see one, i'd just rely on the fact that my deck is infinitely faster than they could ever hope to be.  You would almost 100% win game one, and you should be able to get one of the other two even if they land plagues.

[nero angelo]

well, It is not a theory. It is based on what I've matched so far.

Oath is like LotV. The deck packs 4 of it. I could appear in the opening hand more than 60% of the time.

If it doesn't, it has tutors/fixers to fetch it for the player and most likely will appear on the 2nd turn.

About the Angels, as I have said, it is still being used here (as far as my matches fare). We have different meta. Sui Black is still used here. Heck, even FCG.

All the things I've said was based on what I see, and what I've experienced. I can't post anything I haven't experienced, can I?

I'm not forcing that my solutions were the best, that this tech is better than anything, but is it primarily built around the meta in my place.

Thanks!


Let's keep the discussion healthy.


Oh yes, storm. Storm could be a pain. About flash, I tend to lose to it whenever I have misplays, or I am so unlucky, or he is so lucky. Still, it is a very "powerful" deck considering the "1st turn" or "upkeep" kill.

[Harlequin]

This deck has a fundamentally differant match-up against combo, oath, and flash.  Bitter Ordeal for 2 on turn 2 will typically slow any of these decks to a halt.  Which is why Gargadon is so amazing against Oath.  Its not that Gargadon will attack for the win - its that you can stall your opponent out for 3-6 turns while you get enough ordeal's to strip out their dudes.  They you start to win.

While it's true that Oath will have thier oath of druilds in hand roughly 40% of the time, the turn 1 oath of druids requires more than just oath in hand.  Also if an oath player is unsure what the opponent is playing, then they may opt to mull a hand even with a turn 1 oath if it has no other counters/business.

I guess thats why I think this deck is so interesting.  It has similar strengths to a traditional goblin build - but it takes the "hopeless" matches and moves them into the "Not bad, but I'm not looking forward too..." matches.
 

[coyoteuglly]

This deck has a fundamentally differant match-up against combo, oath, and flash.  Bitter Ordeal for 2 on turn 2 will typically slow any of these decks to a halt.  Which is why Gargadon is so amazing against Oath.  Its not that Gargadon will attack for the win - its that you can stall your opponent out for 3-6 turns while you get enough ordeal's to strip out their dudes.  They you start to win.

While it's true that Oath will have thier oath of druilds in hand roughly 40% of the time, the turn 1 oath of druids requires more than just oath in hand.  Also if an oath player is unsure what the opponent is playing, then they may opt to mull a hand even with a turn 1 oath if it has no other counters/business.

I guess thats why I think this deck is so interesting.  It has similar strengths to a traditional goblin build - but it takes the "hopeless" matches and moves them into the "Not bad, but I'm not looking forward too..." matches.
 

Or you could simply suspend the Gargodon.  When they play Oath, you untap.  Attack with your team.  Than after combat eat them all to Gargs.  Than you simply sit there and build up a hand of Goblins + Warchief.  Than when Gargs is ready to come home from vacation.  You un Suspend him.  Than play all your Goblins + Warchief and alpha strike for the win.

Than you don't have to waste any slots on crappy Bitter Ordeal.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

What happened to Aether Vial in the mess of all this? It's pretty important to have that reach against, oh hmm I dunno Oath. To instant speed Stingscourger a Tyrant on their upkeep to get a strong win set up on the next turn.

If you are playing it as a "combo cap deck" you need to be playing Ancient Tomb so you can consistently "Jester's Cap" the opponent. But I wouldn't go down that road since Bitter Ordeal doesn't seem impressive at all to me.

I would favor a list like the one from Waterbury where I made finals in August of last year. I think Leyline is a very fine choice at the moment, since Ichorid and Flash are at numbers from last year. It's just you need to tune the deck better against Oath. Earwig Squad is an excellent start.

If were talking about Shusher, what happened to plain 'ol REB? It'll force your Earwig Squad through for sure. If you play REB you'd need to play Prospector too though, but it allows you to force through Squad pretty often since you have Prospector for extra mana. In this case you probably can't play Fanatic though, which probably isn't a big deal. He's not that strong against all that much in this meta, but squeezing in Aether Vial is the tricky part.

[chief]

Aether vial is too slow for the current metagame, and instant speed putting a dude in against tyrant oath isn't at all impressive, even if it bounces their guy.  Right now, you never want to play an artifact that doesn't attack on turn one.  It's just setting yourself back.  Int he past, that setback has been offset by the fact that vial lets you cheat mana costs, avoid counterspells, and play dudes at instant speed.  Right now, opposing counterspells are not a major threat, and a large number of the decks in the meta will have you dead before vial gets online. The tyrant oath match really isn't that bad anyway.  All you need to do is find piledrivers and land them while forcing the oath player to counter other spells (ie earwigs or whatever) so that when tyrant lands they can only bounce a couple of perms at best.  They shoiuld already have taken a hit or two, and if they didn't have the force for the squad then they're going to be hurting for wins either way.  They can't touch piledriver with tyrant, so once they oath a dude out you just use those to race.  Post board there are rebs for sure.  It would be a mistake to think that this deck crutches on earwig squad though...it's just trying to be a goblins deck with an extra tool.  I'm not sure if you were walking about my list or the list in the original post...but as far as my build is concerned, those were my thoughts.