What is the correct play?

[T00L]

While goldfishing MSPaint last night I was met with a particularly difficult decision. My hand was Demonic Tutor, Yawgmoth's Will, and a newly drawn Polluted Delta. My board was Underground Sea, Island, Black Lotus and Sol Ring. My Graveyard consisted of Mana Drain, Flooded Strand, and Brainstorm. I've long believed in the notion that if you have Demonic Tutor in your hand you should be able to win the game or at least put yourself in a position where you're in incredibly good shape. I pondered upon what the optimal play was for a good 10 minutes before I logged onto #themanadrain to ask other people what they thought the optimal play was. Brassman and I discussed all the different options this hand presents to you for about an hour before we came upon what we feel was the correct play. Now the reason I am telling you all this is because I wish to venture the same question to all of you. What do you think is the optimal play. For the sake of this exercise assume your opponent has no way to interact with you and you know this. Once again so you don't have to reread this paragraph for the relevant information here is the game state.

HAND: Polluted Delta, Demonic Tutor, Yawgmoth's Will
BOARD: Sol ring, Black Lotus, Island, Underground Sea
GRAVEYARD: Brainstorm, Flooded Strand, Brainstorm

Also consider this is your maindeck

4   Force of Will   
4   Gush   
4   Brainstorm   
3   Merchant Scroll   
3   Mana Drain   
2   Pyroblast   
2   Red Elemental Blast   
1   Fastbond   
1   Tinker   
1   Ancestral Recall   
1   Gifts Ungiven   
1   Time Walk   
1   Timetwister   
1   Vampiric Tutor   
1   Demonic Tutor   
3   Painter's Servant   
3   Grindstone   
1   Tormod's Crypt   
1   Darksteel Colossus   
1   Yawgmoth's Will   
1   Black Lotus   
1   Sol Ring   
1   Mana Crypt   
1   Mox Jet   
1   Mox Sapphire   
1   Mox Ruby   
1   Tolarian Academy   
3   Polluted Delta   
3   Flooded Strand   
2   Island   
3   Volcanic Island   
2   Underground Sea   
1   Tropical Island   

I'm interested to see what everyone comes up with.

[ErkBek]

Are you assuming your opponent doesn't have countermagic in hand?

I think I'd Demonic for Time Walk and go like this:

Delta, DT for Walk, play it
Untap and draw a new card
Yawg Will
Strand
At this point you've got access to a total of 9 mana (or 7 mana plus an untap step for 5-6 more mana)

Your will ends up like this:

BS -> Shuffle (8 mana left)
BS (7 mana left)
DT -> shuffling -> 5 mana left
Cast what you DT'd for (Tinker or Painter combo piece) (2 mana left)
Walk

Untap
attack with DSC or cast other combo piece and activate Grindstone

That'd be my play.

[arctic79]

A lot of possibilities here.  
Assuming no opponent interaction, I would play it out like this:

Lotus for B, (BBB)
Tap Island for U, (BBBU)
Cast DT (BB)
Grab grind
cast grind (B),
Yawg tapping Sol (O)
play flooded
fetch Underground
play lotus
sack lotus (BBB)
DT for painter (B)
cast painter using B and underground
use remaining underground for brainstorm
pass and win next turn.

I can't quite get a win now...I'll keep mulling this one over.

[meadbert]

Perhaps this is just totally wrong, but I would have begun by Tutoring up Ancestral and casting that.  I then would have likely cast Yawg Will and then cast Ancestral again.  That would of course depend on what I drew after casting the first Ancestral.  If Ancestral is countered then you still have enough mana to cast Yawg and Ancestral immediatly.  If Ancestral is MisDed then you may have problems!

Incidently, given the other lines of play, if you draw into Force you can likely use the Drain in the yard to drain your own Force and in that manner generate enough manner to combo out that turn with Painter/Grindstone!
EDIT:  The above comment is wrong.  Somehow I misread and thought there was a Drain in the yard.  With two Brainstorms in the yard it seems offly tempting to Tutor up Ancestral and then go Ancestral, Yawg, Lotus, Ancestral, Brainstorm, Fetch, Brainstorm and now having drawn 12 cards you have at least two mana available!

[RJ]

since I can go off unmolested I would do the folllowing:

tap sol ring and underground to play DT for ancestral

cast ancestral using island

crack lotus for BBB and use 1 plus BB for will

replay lotus, crack for UUU cast ancestral

DT for Walk

play a fetch, and play walk.

then untap and win.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

EDIT:  The above comment is wrong.  Somehow I misread and thought there was a Drain in the yard. 

My Graveyard consisted of Mana Drain, Flooded Strand, and Brainstorm.

...

Once again so you don't have to reread this paragraph for the relevant information here is the game state.

HAND: Polluted Delta, Demonic Tutor, Yawgmoth's Will
BOARD: Sol ring, Black Lotus, Island, Underground Sea
GRAVEYARD: Brainstorm, Flooded Strand, Brainstorm

If there was only one Brainstorm in the yard, I'd DT for Ancestral, play it and see where it goes from there.

I think I'd follow kobefan's or RJ's plan is there were two Brainstorms in the yard.

[ErkBek]

since I can go off unmolested I would do the folllowing:

tap sol ring and underground to play DT for ancestral

cast ancestral using island

crack lotus for BBB and use 1 plus BB for will

replay lotus, crack for UUU cast ancestral

DT for Walk

play a fetch, and play walk.

then untap and win.

So you are assuming that the "win" was in those 6 cards you drew?

If you DT for Walk initially, you get to see 7 cards and then Demonic for another.

[wox2]

My play will be :
1. Tap Sea + sol ring ---->>> Demonic with 1 floating for Gush
2. Tap island , Gush with U and 1 floating
3. sacrifice Lotus for BBB, Cast Will with BU floating
4. Lotus for GGG Demonic for Fastbond with UGG floating
5. Fastbond UG floating
6 Sea, Island --->>> Gush with UUUG floating
7. Brainstorm then fetch
8. Brainstorm then fetch

You will have access to 10 cards, Gush engine allowing you to cast everything you draw. You can possibly not draw combo but if you face blue deck you shoud win with so many disruption in deck.

[Canadian_Pride]

EDIT:  The above comment is wrong.  Somehow I misread and thought there was a Drain in the yard.

Reread the entire post.  In the paragraph, he says that the yard was Mana Drain, Brainstorm, and Flooded strand, like you thought.  Then in the summary, it says 2x Brainstorm and the Strand.  Clearly the difference is significant. Personally with the 1 BS I'd do the Ancestral line, but with 2 I'd be playing the time walk line. 

[RJ]

since I can go off unmolested I would do the folllowing:

tap sol ring and underground to play DT for ancestral

cast ancestral using island

crack lotus for BBB and use 1 plus BB for will

replay lotus, crack for UUU cast ancestral

DT for Walk

play a fetch, and play walk.

then untap and win.

So you are assuming that the "win" was in those 6 cards you drew?

If you DT for Walk initially, you get to see 7 cards and then Demonic for another.

In your scenario, you could win right then, but if the BSs don't come up with the goods, then you have to go the tinker  DSC route, which can easily be answered.  I think if you draw 7 cards and untap, you should have a stranglehold on the gamestate and be in "incredibly good shape" as referenced by the original poster.  If they are at less than 11 life then the tinker plan would be 100% right. 

[Demonic Attorney]

The information that would determine what line of play I would follow isn't available.  It's all well and good to say your opponent can't interact with you, but it's also important to know why.  Is he out of cards in his hand?  If so, I'd probably do: Play land, DT -> Tinker, Tinker -> DSC sacrificing Sol Ring, Yawgmoth's Will off the Lotus, replay Lotus, replay Sol Ring, replay DT -> Time Walk, play Time Walk. 

Does he have a healthy hand but no control resources at the time?  In that case, I'd play DT -> Ancestral, play Ancestral Recall, Yawgmoth's Will, replay Lotus, replay Ancestral, play Brainstorm, use shuffle effect, DT -> Fastbond, play Fastbond, and by then have drawn enough cards to probably start going off with Gushbond since all 4 Gushes, all 3 Merchant Scrolls, and most of your other cantrips are still in the deck and you'll have seen 9 cards.   

Does he have no defense against milling out?  In that case, I might go for DT -> Painter's Servant, play Painter's Servant (name white), Yawgmoth's Will, replay Lotus, play land out of graveyard, Brainstorm to dig for mana, sacrifice to shuffle as needed, DT -> Grindstone, play Grindstone.  Obviously I'd need to be pretty confident that my opponent isn't in a position to disrupt my win mechanism or win themselves on the ensuing turn. 

[Mdizzle4life85]

walk deff seems like the move here

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[TheBrassMan]

After Machinas on IRC came incredibly close, I figure I'd post the answer.


Step one:

sack lotus for black, tap out for 2UBBBB
Demonic Tutor for Gifts Ungiven
Gifts Ungiven for Fastbond, Mana Crypt, Gush, Time Walk (At this point you have one black mana floating, one fetch in hand)
Gush or Time Walk before the Will just gives you the same kill with more mana/cards, so we assume they give you Fastbond, Crypt
Crack fetch for Trop for Fastbond
Play Crypt, use floating black for Will (nothing floating)

Step two solution A

graveyard is now, Flooded Strand, Brainstorm, Mana Drain, Demonic Tutor, Gifts Ungiven, Time Walk, Gush
play fetches for UU, Gush and Mana Drain it
second main phase crack lotus blue, replay lands from gush, 5UUUBB floating
gifts ungiven for Painter, Grindstone, Tinker, Gush, 2UUBB
that's enough mana to play both pieces, play one and tinker for the other, or tinker, DT for the other piece, and Time Walk

Step two solution B

play fetches from yard, break Black Lotus, play Gifts with one Underground Sea untapped
Gifts for Vampiric Tutor, Gush, Painter, Grindstone
if given Painter and Grindstone, Gush for 2 more mana, play Time Walk, Grindstone, win
if given either piece and Vamp, Vamp for other piece, gush for 2 more mana, Time Walk, win
if given either piece and Gush, play both gushes for 4 more mana, DT for the other piece, Time Walk, win
if given Vamp and Gush, vamp for one piece, Gush for 2 mana, DT for the other piece, Gush for 2 mana, Time Walk, win



Solution A is obviously way more fun, but after T00L posted the wrong graveyard information, I needed a route that didn't require the Mana Drain.  Demonic Attorney brings up an excellent point about the Painter kill not necessarily getting there.  As this is the game one list, it can generally be assumed that blessing or double DSC won't be an issue.

If you had a reason to believe they had either of those maindeck, you could still play out Step 1, and have enough mana available to DT->Tinker and Time Walk. I think that route is slightly better than the simpler Time Walk->DSC->Brainstorm play offered, as drawing almost anything off the Gush will put you in better shape (any mana source lets you Brainstorm, any Gush or Scroll continues the engine, any counterspells make your kill more resistant to the one turn you have to give them, drawing into the Tinker lets you tutor for a counter, etc)

phew... I haven't had that much fun in a while! RIP Gifts

[Nevermore]

I play chess and IMO the best way to get to a high level game is through doing tactic books which are just positions that you have to solve for a win (or avoid a loss).  It would be very interesting/awesome if someone could put a MtG puzzle 'book' with problems like this and archive a bunch of them (or make them up) with varying difficulties with vary decks.  I have seen a few over the years on this website and everyone seems to enjoy them and its a good way to stay sharp with magic.  I am sure people at all levels have there own favorite problem they have seen.  It could even be done in a MWS format where u can see the hands graveyards and board of each player.  I miss the old duelist problems too!  Would be cool if someone posted a thread full of puzzles like this one, either synthetic ones or actual ones.

[AngryPheldagrif]

I believe the correct play is to view the current gamestate, then give yourself a gameloss for having an illegal deck. Brainstorm is restricted.

The preceding post is a joke, DemonicAttorney, no need to bust out the red text.