stifle in fish

[SadDubs]

 I notice that most people play a full set of stifle, and I question this. I realize that it is a strong tempo card forcing your opponent to wait on their fetch land until the fish player taps out a turn later. It can also protect against strip effects, stop a turn of vault key, stop a welder, stop a bob draw, and do other random things. But I just find that unless you have it in your opening hand, it loses alot of value. The control player will ramp up tons of mana and the stifle will be minimally effective, and  be fow fodder. And with all the moxen, is a stifle really a worry for the control player? Does its true value come from actually stifling the fetch or just the fear of stifle? With that thought, do you think it is truelly justified as a four of? or should it be cut down to 2-3? Discuss.

[swawagon]

Stifle on a fetchland and a timely Wasteland can often alone win agames. Stifle is still good against Tendrils of Agony and Mind's Desire too. And Bazaar Activations. It's hard to say just how good it is. You ask the same questions about any of the Fish 'situational disruption'.

I think Stifle at one Blue is still relevant, but sorta of fights for a slot on the team with a number of cards including Spell Pierce - which is also situational, but can be great too.

[Deathknight]

As Stifle+Wasteland is great, Stifle+Spell Pierce, Stifle+Null rod... also are great combinations. It is just a question of synergy. As a matter of fact, I think there is no good number of Stifle in a U-Fish build. It could be a question of taste. Whereas you have lot of tricks available to you with Stifle (against Oath, Tangle...) and could have some effects throughout the whole game, Spell Pierce is a bit less situational and less tricky to play with (unfortunately almost unuseful after a few turns).

[jewfro]

I think that now that spell pierce has been printed it will take the place of stifle in fish as it is less situational.

[Harlequin]

I can't see any reason why Fish (with blue) wouldn't want to run 4 stifles.

Its a GREAT maindeck card because EVERY deck in the format including the random decks will be doing something stifleable in the first 3 turns.  As you point out in the opening post.
- Fetches
- Wasteland
- Bazaar
Right there you hit easily the top 90% of most common decks.  Some decks like fish run both Fetch and waste!  Even outsiders like Oath or Elves can be suseptable to Stifle.  Goblins is a deck of Triggered abilites.  Also in a deck of mainly 2cc cards, Stifle can push a 2cc through a Chalice at 2.  This is especially powerful if you run answers to chalice that cost 2 mana like Qalsali.  Lastly, it can answer answers like Engineered Explosives or Sower.

As you point out Stifle is extremely good in the first few turns of the game, which is why you absolutely want 4, to maximize the stifles in your chances of getting one early.  

I disagree that Stifle is less useful late game against Tezz.  It IS less useful as mana denial if they have alot of mana - however it has different uses.  For 1 it can stifle Tezzeret's Search ability, and they still pay the cost.  This can be an issue if they tutured up a , they won't be able to do that again and have Tezz live.  Also Many Tezz decks right now also run a Maindeck Tendrils and often don't include many duresses.  The stifles can be very good here as well, at least steal a game from time to time.  Finally it can get you a timewalk against and impending TV-Key combo.  Which makes it better than many things.

I think Spell Peirce is much more situational than stifle.  Every deck is going to give you something to stifle, where Peirce is only good against decks that have little mana and no relevant creatures.  I do like spell peirce as a compliment to stifle, because it allows you to do alot of damage to most lines of play with a simple open.  Also with open, you can use peirce to force someone into cracking a fetch, and follow up with a stifle, therefor getting a solid 2 for 2.  

[Stormanimagus]

Another nice quality for Stifle is against a match-up that is really potential a disaster for Fish: Elves!

Against Elves you can actually win from what looks like an unwinnable situation if you Stifle Their Storm Trigger for Grapeshot on the turn they are comboing out and sometimes they'll lose to multiple Pact Triggers on the following turn. You could Stifle Even if they don't lose to a pact trigger (i.e-they can tap some dudes to pay for it) you've bought yourself critical time in perhaps staging a defense of creatures or plowing and important creature of theirs.

I'd actually like an experienced elf pilot's take on this match-up. Is there any way for Noble Fish to walk away the Victor here? Obviously we side in STP AND Needle as Rod #5-7 correct? Is that enough for a Noble Fish player to win with? What does BUG Fish do here? Seems like a pretty horrible match-up for the Fish player no matter how you slice it.

-Storm

[RecklessEmbermage]

Another nice quality for Stifle is against a match-up that is really potential a disaster for Fish: Elves!

Against Elves you can actually win from what looks like an unwinnable situation if you Stifle Their Storm Trigger for Grapeshot on the turn they are comboing out and sometimes they'll lose to multiple Pact Triggers on the following turn. You could Stifle Even if they don't lose to a pact trigger (i.e-they can tap some dudes to pay for it) you've bought yourself critical time in perhaps staging a defense of creatures or plowing and important creature of theirs.

I'd actually like an experienced elf pilot's take on this match-up. Is there any way for Noble Fish to walk away the Victor here? Obviously we side in STP AND Needle as Rod #5-7 correct? Is that enough for a Noble Fish player to win with? What does BUG Fish do here? Seems like a pretty horrible match-up for the Fish player no matter how you slice it.

-Storm

I don't qualify as an experienced elf pilot, but I have built some elfball decks.

With the new engine, elves are not as hard-pressed for mana as they used to be (relatively speaking). They can combo off without bouncing all their lands, since sentinel untaps on itself and the draw engines are redundant enough that the elf player rarely needs to clamp all of his guys. After comboing out, the elf player will have a massive board-presence practically always and fish normally has no way of answering that, since it wins through combat. Stifling the storm spell therefore won't do much and having elves die to pacts is very unlikely.

Making them answer a canonist or laboratory from the board should give you time to start beating and hopefully get them on their back foot. If you're in luck, they can be seriously underprepared for enchantments.

This becomes a lot easier with mass-removal of some sort (explosives on 1 ftw!) or atleast jitte, but you aren't keen on making room for such cards in the board, are you?

EDIT: Stifle isn't useless against elves though. If you stifle clamp early, stp a creature early, counter jitte or glimpse or blow up jitte with pridemage before they get to use it, that's certainly good and can easily lead to game wins. As long as you take out their most critical cards (clamp, glimpse, their turn one creature -whatever it is) before they get rolling, you have good chances.

[theLastGnu]

Stifle's stronger than ever after Zendikar. The enemy fetches result in more basics being playable and makes it arguably better than Wasteland. Not running it is probably a mistake in any blue fish deck aiming for mana denial.

[dawgie]

I don't know why but I really like Stifle in UGW fish. It has saved me in games about so many times and Stifling a fetchland has won me many times. The way it protects your dual lands from Wasteland and Strip Mine is also an incredible feat because you made them lose a land drop. Really, it fools a lot of players especially during the early turns. I only put 3 tough because I think 4 is too much.

[urweak]

Another nice quality for Stifle is against a match-up that is really potential a disaster for Fish: Elves!

Against Elves you can actually win from what looks like an unwinnable situation if you Stifle Their Storm Trigger for Grapeshot on the turn they are comboing out and sometimes they'll lose to multiple Pact Triggers on the following turn. You could Stifle Even if they don't lose to a pact trigger (i.e-they can tap some dudes to pay for it) you've bought yourself critical time in perhaps staging a defense of creatures or plowing and important creature of theirs.

I'd actually like an experienced elf pilot's take on this match-up. Is there any way for Noble Fish to walk away the Victor here? Obviously we side in STP AND Needle as Rod #5-7 correct? Is that enough for a Noble Fish player to win with? What does BUG Fish do here? Seems like a pretty horrible match-up for the Fish player no matter how you slice it.

-Storm

Canonist makes short work of elves. With Stifle and Meddling Mage targeting grapeshot, its game over.