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Author Topic: Dread Slaver  (Read 1953 times)
nineisnoone
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« on: June 11, 2008, 05:45:16 pm »

Basically the deck combines 3 basic plans of attack.
1) Dreadnaught + Stifle
2) Welder into large artifact.
3) Drain into large artifact.
4) Additionally you can Tinker into DSC.

LAND
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Volcanic Island

ARTIFACT MANA
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus

CREATURES
4 Goblin Welder
4 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
1 Darksteel Collossus
1 Platinum Angel
1 Tinker

CONTROL
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Mana Drain

DRAW
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Intuition
3 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Accumulated Knowledge

Yes, there is no hate for ANY.dec.  And there definitely should be.  Right now I'm just trying to work on the shell.  Running both Intuition/AK and Thirst for Knowledge is clearly excessive.  I'm sort of toggling between the two.  While Thirst seems like the obvious draw engine, Intuition can tutor for the missing piece of Welder+Artifact in play+Artifact in Graveyard or Dreadnought+Stifle.  It also gives a tutor sweet for any 3x hate that might works it's way into the sideboard.

I'm pretty new to Slaver variants, so let me know if I'm way out of line here.  But I do like Dreadnaught/Stifle. And I feel they both complement each other. 

If you go the Dread+Stifle path, Welder works well.  If you draw into either you can Weld the Dreadnought in you GY back into play, either sacing the other Dreadnought or Stifling it.

Drain mana goes to Thirst/Intuition, either pitching away Dreadnaughts or Tutoring for the other combo piece.

Dreadnaught also only costs 1, meaning it's cheap to play if you just want an artifact on board to Weld a bigger Artifact into play.

Stifle is also a generically good card and seems like should have a good place in the deck since it has a proactive use here.
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hvndr3d y34r h3x
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« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2008, 07:02:32 pm »

Hi, I've actually toy with similar ideas my self. You didn't mention this is your post, but I just wanted to make sure you were aware that you can hard cast a dreadnought, then weld one in with the trigger on the stack to sac to the other and keep the 1st. In the same way you can also vial in a second nought.
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credmond
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« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2008, 07:18:31 pm »

Things look okay so far, but I think you are overlooking some more optimal cards to use.

Illusionary mask seems like it would be better here than stifle. In addition to masking dreadnaught into play you could also mask welder into play. Also, once welder is in play mask can always be welded back in should it be countered. The mask is also an artifact that goes great with your TFK draw engine. Stifle goes better in decks that put pressure on the mana with 5x wastes and life from the loam or crucible. You seem to be going for more aggro here and would benefit from more interaction with welder/TFK.

To further the aggro bent to this deck you might consider fling as a one of, but that needs to be tested since fling is theoretically a weak card.

Also, time walk seems like an auto-include in a deck with big fatties. And what about mystical tutor for grabbing intuition, or ancestral, or tinker, or fling, or TFK?

Also, trinket mage works well with what you got so far, so you should throw some copies of him in here as a tutor for dreadnaught, top, lotus, or the tormod's crypt you should add.

Just some things to consider. Good luck with the deck.
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nineisnoone
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« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2008, 11:15:38 pm »

Hi, I've actually toy with similar ideas my self. You didn't mention this is your post, but I just wanted to make sure you were aware that you can hard cast a dreadnought, then weld one in with the trigger on the stack to sac to the other and keep the 1st. In the same way you can also vial in a second nought.

Cool.  It's always a good sign when other people are independently heading in the same direction. 

Thanks for the tip!  I hadn't thought of that.

How is your list going?  I had originally also planned on cramming a Bazaar Engine into it.... but yeah the deck is pretty packed as is. Are you using Intuition or Thirst?  If you're using Intuition are you using DA or AK?  While AK for 1 is horrible, it's something.  Whereas on a mana light hand DA's might sit there for awhile.  If I felt more confident about doing relevant things in the early game, I'd probably go for DA. But as of the moment I'd like to have something to do when I'm at 2 mana.

Of course, being a Drain deck doing nothing on two is a quasi-justifiable event.  And cantripping isn't that much of an advantage.

Things look okay so far, but I think you are overlooking some more optimal cards to use.

(1) Illusionary mask seems like it would be better here than stifle. In addition to masking dreadnaught into play you could also mask welder into play. Also, once welder is in play mask can always be welded back in should it be countered. The mask is also an artifact that goes great with your TFK draw engine. Stifle goes better in decks that put pressure on the mana with 5x wastes and life from the loam or crucible. You seem to be going for more aggro here and would benefit from more interaction with welder/TFK.

(2) To further the aggro bent to this deck you might consider fling as a one of, but that needs to be tested since fling is theoretically a weak card.

(3) Also, time walk seems like an auto-include in a deck with big fatties. And what about mystical tutor for grabbing intuition, or ancestral, or tinker, or fling, or TFK?

(4) Also, trinket mage works well with what you got so far, so you should throw some copies of him in here as a tutor for dreadnaught, top, lotus, or the tormod's crypt you should add.

Just some things to consider. Good luck with the deck.

(1)
Mask - I had never been a fan of Mask-Nought, but the synergies you mention (being an artifact and a Weldable target) are important. 

At the moment though, what I like about Stifle is it's utility.  It 1) stops Wasteland 2) acts like a Wasteland (on fetches) 3) stops storm Triggers 4) can stop a Bazaar/Oath/Welder activation (buying you a valuable turn) 5) pitches to FOW 6) works with Dreadnought.  So I like it in the way that it is a pretty versatile card.  True, the deck doesn't touch the mana denial element at all, but a 1 mana Sinkhole can't hurt and can randomly win games.  Plus, their presence makes opposing players have to play around it.

I do like the idea of Mask though and may inevitably include it either in conjunction with or replacing Stifle.  The main advantage I see is that you can just blindly play a Mask when you draw it, since the following Dreadnought (whether immediate or  many turns down the lines) would be uncounterable. However, the versatility of Stifle wins me over.

(2)
Fling would be a very good choice actually, though I'd likely only incorporate it as part of a Wish board, not main deck.
Drain -> Wish -> Fling -> Dreadnought for 12 to the face. At 5 mana to do so (6 if you're doing it in response to the trigger) you don't even need to Drain for much.  Of course, this leads me to....

(3)
Mystical and Time Walk were both originally in the deck (as was Scroll and Ponder). Preferentially the first cards go in would be 1) Time Walk 2) Mystical 3) 4) Ponder.  The question is really what do I want to cut.  Running Intuition and Thirst I ran all the 0 Mana sources, and I'm not even running the full 4 Intuition/Thirst's yet. 

At the moment the first cut would be the 2nd Top or the 3rd Intuition for a Time Walk and Mystical.

I have this irrational love for Top so that 2nd top is really difficult to let go of.  The Intuitions have been a bit clunky, and going down to 2 would justify switching from AK to DA which I'm sort of leaning towards.

The more I think about it the more I think that's the right call.

(4)
Going with Trinket imo pushes me towards a more Fish-style deck.  Of course, I am looking to build a deck using Dark Confidant (draw), Welder (power), and Trinket Mage (toolbox).  But that's a different deck. Crypts will probably be in there eventually (possibly cutting land), but at the moment I can live with Game 1 loss to Ichorid.  However, I'll probably play some bounce before Crypts, at least as far as maindeck goes.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 12:08:09 am by nineisnoone » Logged

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Kelme
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2008, 05:31:09 am »

Hey

You are new to Slaver, so therefore I'll give you some stuff to consider in your testing, as it in general is applied testing that makes you master the deck and understanding and really appreciating the art of deckdesigning.

First off, I dont think Dreadnaught belongs in a slaver deck. Slaver is Control Slaver, meaning you must enter a present controllish state of mind, not forcing through a little 12/12, while leaving the opponent free to destroy you. Have cards that immidiately impacts the game like sundering, mindslaver, crypt, trike. My reason is based on a lot of premises but the most significant is that A)You dont play duress, so you might waste your counters, throw away two cards for 1 dreadnaught that does nothing but add pressure, B) and in the meantime throwing away counters, passing the turn, and leaving the opponent a whole turn (actually two) trying to cope or go off.

Secondly. Thirst is the premiere engine of Slaver. I dont think I have to explain this part so  Id say play 4x thirst.

Thirdly. You play a very heavy draw engine but also the most solid there is. But you cant support it with just 12 lands! I mean, thats like the same amount Grim or Flash played. You want to have at least 2-3 lands in your opening hand. Secondly and with this point in mind, your weak manabase cant even support your drawengine, meaning digging for lands is sincerly difficult. Furthermore, your accelerant quanity is the lowest ive seen in slaver for a very long while. You are completely hosed by Chalice. You cant play Tinker under chalice, unless you sac a dread, which leads to -->tinker, dread, stifle 3 cards for tinkering in platz or something.

Finally, I think you are trying to accomplish two goals in one try. Ive always appreciated this. But using slaver shell for a fish deck is contradictory I think. Slaver is a deck I truly love and all innovation in this shell is deeply appreciated, so take this post as a sharing of information to use for enhancing your own critical thinking. Most importantly, Id say run 25-26 mana sources.  Thats a suggestion for a starting point.

Peace and Good luck,
Kelme

 
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KnowmaD
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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2008, 10:55:31 am »

I like the deck idea a lot  but second the " where the *&^5 is the mindslaver". 

                                                                       
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nineisnoone
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2008, 11:06:05 am »

I like the deck idea a lot  but second the " where the *&^5 is the mindslaver".

lol. yeeeahhh.... Title thread a little misleading there.  Wink  It's in there now.

Also someone please find a name that doesn't sound as idiotic as "Dread Slaver."

Hey

You are new to Slaver, so therefore I'll give you some stuff to consider in your testing, as it in general is applied testing that makes you master the deck and understanding and really appreciating the art of deckdesigning.

First off, I dont think Dreadnaught belongs in a slaver deck. Slaver is Control Slaver, meaning you must enter a present controllish state of mind, not forcing through a little 12/12, while leaving the opponent free to destroy you. Have cards that immidiately impacts the game like sundering, mindslaver, crypt, trike. My reason is based on a lot of premises but the most significant is that A)You dont play duress, so you might waste your counters, throw away two cards for 1 dreadnaught that does nothing but add pressure, B) and in the meantime throwing away counters, passing the turn, and leaving the opponent a whole turn (actually two) trying to cope or go off.

Secondly. Thirst is the premiere engine of Slaver. I dont think I have to explain this part so  Id say play 4x thirst.

Thirdly. You play a very heavy draw engine but also the most solid there is. But you cant support it with just 12 lands! I mean, thats like the same amount Grim or Flash played. You want to have at least 2-3 lands in your opening hand. Secondly and with this point in mind, your weak manabase cant even support your drawengine, meaning digging for lands is sincerly difficult. Furthermore, your accelerant quanity is the lowest ive seen in slaver for a very long while. You are completely hosed by Chalice. You cant play Tinker under chalice, unless you sac a dread, which leads to -->tinker, dread, stifle 3 cards for tinkering in platz or something.

Finally, I think you are trying to accomplish two goals in one try. Ive always appreciated this. But using slaver shell for a fish deck is contradictory I think. Slaver is a deck I truly love and all innovation in this shell is deeply appreciated, so take this post as a sharing of information to use for enhancing your own critical thinking. Most importantly, Id say run 25-26 mana sources.  Thats a suggestion for a starting point.

Peace and Good luck,
Kelme

 

Thanks.  Particularly on the Mana sources suggestion, I've never been good at them.  At the moment, I've uped it to 24. I'm not sure what I'd cut to make 25 however.

(1)
I'm not sure what you mean by "You dont play duress, so you might waste your counters, throw away two cards for 1 dreadnaught that does nothing but add pressure."  Are you referencing Stifle/Dreadnought as the 2 cards? Or FoW/Blue to protect that combination?  I wouldn't protect Stifle/Dreadnought.  Welder would give me the option to weld it back into play anyways Once I've drawn another Dreadnought/Stifle.  I'm perfectly happy getting it countered.  Less so getting a Stifle Duressed away, but if my hand was any good I'd probably be happy with that too.

And as far as the 2 cards to play it goes, it's the same as Tinker but for 1 less mana but requiring a specific artifact.  Dreadnought is also larger than DSC (relevant if they are chumping with 2/2s), the destructibility is an actual bonus since you can weld it back if you draw another Stifle/Dreadnought (of course who runs non-swords removal anymore?), and if it gets bounced you can play it easily again (again with another Stifle/Dreadnought+Welder).

Of course, you might be saying "I wouldn't run DSC either."  Which makes comparing the two moot.  However, I just looked at what I posted though and I added 2 slavers (which I realized should have been in the list, otherwise... why did I call it slaver?)

(2)
Without Brainstorm, I'm not sure if I can support the 4th Thirst.  At the moment, I haven't had any real problems with 3. Though I'm somewhat fattie-lite and I might want to hold onto a Dreadnought for Stifle.  If I went more pure slaver or added a 2nd Top or went from Stifles to Masks, I would probably add the 4th.  I still might in any case.  It's definitely on the table, it's just at the moment I'm leaving it at 3 because I need more room to play around with the other card slots.

(3)
I think I added a land or two and Sol Ring and Mana Vault.

(4)
It's not really meant to be a fish variant, despite taking elements from DeezNaughts.  It's more like Tarmogoyf in Random.dec, more a random threat to throw out. If it sticks and swings, great.  If it doesn't, then it's efficient for cost (at least mana-wise) and I'll just keep drawing to I get something else.

With that in mind, Masks might be the better option as I don't have to commit to two cards up front.

Current list:
Lands
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Volcanic Mountain

Artifact Mana
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring

Creatures
1 Darksteel Colossus
4 Goblin Welder
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Spells
2 Intuition
1 Mystical Tutor

4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Mana Drain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder

1 Tinker
1 Time Walk

2 Mindslaver

4 Force of Will

3 Stifle
2 Illusionary Mask

Note that hate for ANY.dec is still absent.  If I'm conceding Game 1 to Ichorid (and yes, I'm conceding Game 1 to Ichorid), what match-ups should I be looking to address in the maindeck? 
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 11:39:08 am by nineisnoone » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2008, 12:03:09 am »

Hey again.

The list you just posted is certainly an improvement!

There are two things Id like to hear your oppinion on.

1)Why DSC? In CS without large creatures, its ok. but in your case, im thinking Platz, Sundering titan (the card thats won me the largest number of matches in my slaver career), memory jar, crypt, ect.

2)Two slaver. The way Id suggest you see Slaver is as an universal out. A card that when activated always does guarantee that you get a turn to prevent losing, do funny stuff to your opponent or typically, destroy him completely. However, its mana hungry. I generally think, it should be your reserve card, something you have in case of. And its legendary too.

Have fun!
 
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nineisnoone
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« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2008, 11:26:54 am »

Thanks!  Glad to know it's starting to shape together.

1) I'm just running DSC because it's always been my Tinker target.   It's straight-forward and the easy choice when I'm not trying to be clever.  While it seems redundant with Dreadnought, I can't really Tinker for Dreadnought so if I just want a beater I'd need DSC.  But I'm not really sold on him either.

I don't think Jar would be right because I don't have the ability to combo off cards, I would probably just be casting Dreadnought/DSC anyways.

Crypt? You mean Tormod's Crypt?  I'm conceding (at least as far as pure hate cards go) Game 1 to Ichorid and can randomly remove some bridges by letting Dreadnoughts die and I can Stifle storm triggers Game 1 against Long decks.

Angel was my second choice as it does help against Ichorid/Shop and is another easy choice, but DSC should be able to out race shop (or it can at least) and won't die to Smokestack and Ichorid usually runs the other Angel (the one that destroys a permanent CIP) as a Dread Return target (or at least so I anticipate).

Titan it depends on the Meta.  Against Ichorid/Shop it won't touch their lands. It can swing and block against Shop (unless they can weld it out) but it does nothing offensively or defensively against Ichorid. (Well DSC isn't doing anything against Ichorid either).  It is a beating against anything other decks however.

2) Yeah, I'm not actually at all sure on 2 Mindslavers.  Like I said, I'm new to Slaver so when I went back to tweaking the mana base, I looked back at the list I started from, http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35954.0 and realized I had neglected the 2 Mindslavers (and that I didn't run Slaver yet called it Slaver.  ::dilemma:Smile

Why are there 2?  I'm not really sure, you'd have to ask Menendian.  I couldn't really make the case for there being 2 rather than 1 or none.

I am thinking of swapping one of them for a Titan to give me more options.  Slaver vs. combo, Titan vs. control. I suppose if I have a Titan he can serve as the generic beater and don't need DSC.  If I stuck with 2 Slavers I'd want DSC though (barring cutting any other cards).

Maybe Razormane Masticore for aggro?  I just realized a drawback to DSC is you can't weld it out in response to Swords or bounce (well you can, you just can't weld it back).  And an advantage to Razormane is I can Tinker him in during upkeep to avoid the first payment.  Or maybe Angel would still be the better option?  Or Triskelion?

I've actually always wanted to find a use for Bosh, Iron Golem. He wins in 2 (2 attacks and then fling him) and can be used as removal.



The other cards I'm questioning are the 2x Intuition and Ponder.  I would put in Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall  into these slots, but I was under the impression that CS had a good Shop match up.  Not sure what to run outside of the generic answers, Vapor, Truth, and Wish.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 11:35:58 am by nineisnoone » Logged

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