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Author Topic: What would your ideal banned and restricted list be?  (Read 3105 times)
Lurker101
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« on: June 24, 2008, 10:53:55 pm »

My banned list would stay the same except I would legalize some silver bordered cards that aren't too jokey and could function according to normal rules:
The following silver bordered cards are unbanned (I don't like the idea of printing playable cards and not making them usable at all):
I changed this list and moved it to the bottom of the page.
I would also legalize Mox Crystal (a 5c promo card) and restrict it.
The Following Cards Are Restricted
    * Ancestral Recall
    * Balance
    * Black Lotus
    * Brainstorm
    * Burning Wish
    * Channel
    * Chrome Mox
    * Crop Rotation
    * Demonic Consultation
    * Demonic Tutor
    * Dream Halls (unrestricted)
    * Enlightened Tutor (Unrestricted put on Watch)
    * Entomb (Unrestricted put on Watch)
    * Fact or Fiction (unrestricted put on Watch)
    * Fastbond
    * Flash
    * Frantic Search (Unrestricted put on watch)
    * Gifts Ungiven
    * Grim Monolith
    * Gush
    * Imperial Seal
    * Library of Alexandria
    * Lion’s Eye Diamond
    * Lotus Petal
    * Mana Crypt
    * Mana Vault
    * Memory Jar
    * Merchant Scroll
    * Mind’s Desire
    * Mise (Unbanned)
    * Mox Diamond
    * Mox Crystal (unbanned)
    * Mox Emerald
    * Mox Jet
    * Mox Pearl
    * Mox Ruby
    * Mox Sapphire
    * Mystical Tutor
    * Necropotence
    * Personal Tutor (Unrestricted)
    * Ponder
    * Regrowth
    * Serum Powder
    * Sol Ring
    * Strip Mine
    * Squee, Goblin Nabob
    * Time Spiral
    * Time Walk
    * Timetwister
    * Tinker
    * Tolarian Academy
    * Trinisphere
    * Vampiric Tutor
    * Wheel of Fortune
    * Windfall    (unrestricted)
    * Yawgmoth’s Bargain
    * Yawgmoth’s Will
    *Zodiac Dragon (changed to original wording)

I just thought this would be a fun topic and there actually seems to be a number of silver bordered cards that play well enough under normal rules. I wonder how this vintage would turn out.
Edit: I kept Chrome Mox restricted because I unbanned Mox Crystal. I kept ponder/brainstorm restricted because I unbanned Mise. Zodiac Dragon loses power level errata so it is restricted as is Squee. Bazzar is not restricted because it enables decks besides Dredge to thrive and I knock Dredge down a peg by restricting Serum Powder. See my post below for my rationale as to why some silver bordered cards should be legalized.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2008, 11:28:22 pm by Lurker101 » Logged
EnialisLiadon
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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2008, 11:16:32 pm »

I would keep silver bordered cards illegal.  I would unrestrict Dream Halls, Fact or Fiction, Flash, Gifts Ungiven, and Time Spiral.

Dream Halls is garbage, and Time Spiral isn't really that much better.  I think Flash is fine without Brainstorm or Scroll.  I think Fact is fair.  And I just really want Gifts back, heh.
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Jo84
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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2008, 03:31:23 am »

agree with Enialis, I would keep the B&R List as small as possible, so Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Library of Alexandria and Frantic Search would be my other choices.

I might also consider Tolarian Academy as this deck couldn´t keep up with the speed of nowadays.

Library is strong with Mind over Matter, but this card isn´t played anymore and is too slow without Academy (and with Geyser and Stroke are much stronger than Library). Also it produces colorless mana and I can´t think of a deck that would play more than one as no control deck could afford to drop too much colorless mana.

I also would Flash give another shot with 1 Scroll like I would do to Gifts as well. Brainstorm and Ponder would also be unrestricted.
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« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2008, 08:24:22 am »

Unrestricting Academy is utter maddness. Whether its's the focus of your deck or not, it still produces a crazy burst of blue mana acceleration. Stax, Control Slaver, almost any deck could abuse it pretty heavily, not just combo. Doubly so if you're unrestricting Frantic Search at the same time.
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« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2008, 08:52:00 am »

Ancestral Recall
Balance
Black Lotus
Burning Wish
Channel
Crop Rotation
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Fact or Fiction
Fastbond
Flash
Gifts Ungiven
Imperial Seal
Library of Alexandria
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Mana Crypt
Memory Jar
Merchant Scroll
Mind's Desire
Mox 5 (Jet, Pearl, Ruby, Sapphire, Emerald)
Mystical Tutor
Necropotence
Personal Tutor
Regrowth
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Time Spiral
Time Walk
Timetwister
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Trinisphere
Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Yawgmoth's Bargin
Yawgmoths Will
+Polluted Delta
+Flooded Strand
+Windswept Heath
+Bloodstained Mire
+Wooded Foothills

Ok, so some reasoning:

Brainstorm, Ponder, Gush all back to 4x, but restrict Fetchlands.  Merchantscroll (and regrow) all restricted.  I think the most fair and logical way to scale back the power of brainstorm and ponder is to attack the free, uncounterable, put dirrectly into play tutors.  Fetchlands.  Really, what is the differance between Tinker and Polluted Delta?  Also how good is brainstorm when you -don't- hit a shuffle effect?  The consistancy of brainstorm really is in the ability to tutor afterwords.  So why not add the -tutors- to the list?

Frantic Search x4.  This is probably the most imporant "watch" card.  I'm not sure how it would play out, would vintage soldarity-reset-tide be playable?  Would Ux Madness be competative?  Would either of these decks 'break' the format? probably not.  The only danger would be in a sort-of Tide/Madness/Combo deck I think.  But one of the interesting things about Frantic Search is that you really need multiple lands in play to make it busted so this means your not realistically creating a turn-1 combo deck around Frantic Search.

Mana Vault x4.  Can anyone really tell me what Mana Vault is fundamentally more busted than Dark Ritual?  If black decks get Dark Ritual - shop decks get Mana Vault.  Oh they can have Grim monolith as a gimme too. 

Enlightend Tutor x4, but Mystical and Personal stay restricted.  I just don't think 4x Etutor is that dangerous for the format.  Would combo use it?  It gets lotus at the cost of a draw.  Would Shops use it? possibly.  The reason Etutor is not that dangerous is that you have to splash white to play it.  And with all the fetchlands restricted you'll need to do more than run a single tundra.  All this does is make Counterbalance viable in vintage.

Chrome Mox x4, Mox Diamond x4.  I don't see these cards being used in a competative well tuned combo deck.  The only real way to support them is with draw-7s.  And draw-7 decks are already at crytical mass with mox and rituals.  These cards are really not that good.  They trade 2 cards for a single mana a turn.  Mox Diamond could possibly make Land tax playable but really I don't think any decks at the top tiers of play are going to be salivating over either of these cards. 
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Tha Gunslinga
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« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2008, 09:03:49 am »

Banned:
Aether Vial
Amulet of Quoz
Ancestral Recall
Ancient Tomb
Arcbound Ravager (Play Broodstar instead)
Balance
Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Lotus
Brain Freeze
Brainstorm
Bridge From Below
Bronze Tablet
Burning Wish
Channel
Chaos Orb
Chrome Mox
City of Traitors
Contract from Below
Crop Rotation
Crucible of Worlds
Dark Confidant
Dark Ritual
Darkpact
Demonic Attorney
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Earthcraft
Empty the Warrens
Enlightened Tutor
Entomb
Fact or Fiction
Falling Star
Fastbond
Fireblast
Flash
Force of Will
Frantic Search
Gifts Ungiven
Goblin Charbelcher
Goblin Lackey
Goblin Ringleader
Goblin Welder
Grim Monolith
Grim Tutor
Hermit Druid
Hymn to Tourach
Isochron Scepter
Imperial Seal
Intuition
Jeweled Bird
Land Tax
Library of Alexandria
Life from the Loam
Lightning Bolt
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Bloom
Lotus Petal
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Merchant Scroll
Metalworker
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Mishra's Workshop
Mox Diamond
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Mystical Tutor
Necropotence
Oath of Druids
Painter's Servant
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Ponder
Psychatog
Rebirth
Regrowth
Sensei's Divining Top
Skullclamp
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Swords to Plowshares
Tarmogoyf
Tempest Efreet
Tendrils of Agony
Thirst for Knowledge
Thoughtseize
Time Spiral
Time Walk
Timetwister
Timmerian Fiends
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Umezawa's Jitte
Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Worldgorger Dragon
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will

Restricted:
none
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personalbackfire
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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2008, 09:07:11 am »


Mana Vault x4.  Can anyone really tell me what Mana Vault is fundamentally more busted than Dark Ritual?  If black decks get Dark Ritual - shop decks get Mana Vault.  Oh they can have Grim monolith as a gimme too. 



This has been argued before. The reason I believe that people have viewed it as stronger than Dark Ritual is the ability to play it on one turn and then get the 3 mana out of it on a different turn.

Black decks might have Dark ritual, but shop decks allready have Shops...
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« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2008, 09:32:03 am »

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Jo84
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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2008, 01:12:00 pm »

Unrestricting Academy is utter maddness. Whether its's the focus of your deck or not, it still produces a crazy burst of blue mana acceleration. Stax, Control Slaver, almost any deck could abuse it pretty heavily, not just combo. Doubly so if you're unrestricting Frantic Search at the same time.

yeah it produces some mana, but without a mox it doesn´t produce you any mana. Workshop also produces 3 mana for artifacts and Academy needs artifacts in play to be good. Furthermore Academy is legendary, so playing 4 of them will increase the chances of 2+ Academies in your opening hand. If you rely too much on Academy - which you have too if you want to support 3-4 of them in your deck - you are really really vulnerable to Spheres and Chalice of the Void. Also a countered mox can easily lose you the game.
You may get some tempo from playing 4 Academies but on the other hand you will have to mulligan much more.

It´s not that broken anymore!

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BigBarn
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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2008, 01:26:29 pm »

Differences only -

Restrict:
Bazaar of Baghdad
Mishra's Workshop
Dark Ritual
Mana Drain

Unrestrict:
Regrowth
Fact or Fiction
Trinisphere
Time Spiral
Chrome Mox
Gifts Ungiven
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Necrologia
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2008, 06:49:05 pm »

Unrestricting Academy is utter maddness. Whether its's the focus of your deck or not, it still produces a crazy burst of blue mana acceleration. Stax, Control Slaver, almost any deck could abuse it pretty heavily, not just combo. Doubly so if you're unrestricting Frantic Search at the same time.

yeah it produces some mana, but without a mox it doesn´t produce you any mana. Workshop also produces 3 mana for artifacts and Academy needs artifacts in play to be good. Furthermore Academy is legendary, so playing 4 of them will increase the chances of 2+ Academies in your opening hand. If you rely too much on Academy - which you have too if you want to support 3-4 of them in your deck - you are really really vulnerable to Spheres and Chalice of the Void. Also a countered mox can easily lose you the game.
You may get some tempo from playing 4 Academies but on the other hand you will have to mulligan much more.

It´s not that broken anymore!


You're missing the point. It's not just mana acceleration, it's blue mana acceleration. Take Mind's Desire. It's absurdly strong, but the UU makes it difficult for combo players to cast it consistently, especially now that many of them are moving to more of a black base without Brainstorm. Academy fixes that problem. Workshop decks gain another consistent large mana producer, and gain easier access to Tinker/Recall. Control Slaver can get a faster Mana Drain into a bigger Will.

Requiring artifacts is a joke. Any deck that would be looking to run Academy is certainly running upwards of 10 artifacts already. As for the possibility of moxen getting counted, if my opponent counters a mox solely because of Academy I'll be jumping for joy. I'll have just traded a simple mana source for a counter. I'll make that trade all day long. If you desperately need the mox to fuel academy, lead with the artifact first. No one in their right mind will ever counter a mox out of the blue unless you've dropped an Academy turn 1 onto an artifact free board. Even then it's still an extremely sketchy play.

The fact that it's legendary is another problem with it, not a mitigating factor. We don't need to add Academy wars to the long list of randomness in Type 1.

To be honest, I can't believe that it's necessary to argue this. Academy isn't restricted because of the terribly obsolete combo deck from a decade ago. It's restricted because it's completely broken of it's own accord. No land should be able to tap for UUU turn 1, or UUUUUUUU late game. It's completely outside of what a single card, let alone an uncounterable land should be capable of.

Threads like this are why breaking off from the DCI simply wouldn't work.
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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2008, 07:36:44 pm »

Ok, I'll bite

Remove:
Dream Halls - this card is about as far from broken as it gets on the B/R list.
Entomb - it's my understanding that this card never really got out of control. I could be wrong here, but I just don't see the harm.
Regrowth - this card is pretty good at times, but I don't think it's quite at the caliber it needs to be in order to be restricted. The fact that it is green really hurts the brokenness of this card.
Ponder - I think the DCI acted a little too quickly on this one in that I would have liked to see Brainstorm x1 + Ponder x4 and see where that goes. Then again, the DCI has a new policy now, so who knows if this card fits their criteria.

Add:
Bazaar of Baghdad - as I said in Cody's article, I think this card is just too objectively broken to be permitted to go free any longer.

Silver bordered cards also should not be vintage legal.

Also, why are the ante cards not listed out in the B/R list? I know that you can figure out which cards are ante cards easily, but there are only nine that you would have to list...
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 07:40:17 pm by Yare » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2008, 10:09:46 pm »

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=judge/resources/sfrvintage
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« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2008, 10:47:45 pm »

    * Ancestral Recall
    * Balance
    * Black Lotus
    * Brainstorm
    * Burning Wish
    * Channel
    * Chrome Mox
    * Crop Rotation
    * Demonic Consultation
    * Demonic Tutor
    * Enlightened Tutor
    * Entomb
    * Fact or Fiction
    * Fastbond
    * Flash
    * Frantic Search
    * Gifts Ungiven
    * Grim Monolith
    * Grim Tutor
    * Gush
    * Imperial Seal
    * Library of Alexandria
    * Lion’s Eye Diamond
    * Lotus Petal
    * Mana Crypt
    * Mana Vault
    * Memory Jar
    * Merchant Scroll
    * Mind’s Desire
    * Mox Diamond
    * Mox Emerald
    * Mox Jet
    * Mox Pearl
    * Mox Ruby
    * Mox Sapphire
    * Mystical Tutor
    * Necropotence
    * Personal Tutor
    * Regrowth
    * Serum Powder
    * Sol Ring
    * Strip Mine
    * Time Spiral
    * Time Walk
    * Timetwister
    * Tinker
    * Tolarian Academy
    * Trinisphere
    * Vampiric Tutor
    * Wheel of Fortune
    * Windfall
    * Yawgmoth’s Bargain
    * Yawgmoth’s Will

No Un-sets.

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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2008, 01:57:08 am »


What he said.
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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2008, 03:30:55 am »

Silver bordered are still not legal.

The following cards are banned in Vintage tournaments:

    * Any ante card
    * Chaos Orb
    * Falling Star
    * Shahrazad

The following cards are restricted* in Vintage tournaments

    * Ancestral Recall
    * Balance
    * Black Lotus
    * Brainstorm
    * Burning Wish (Unrestricted, LED was the card that needed to go from long, not wish)
    * Channel
    * Chrome Mox
    * Crop Rotation
    * Demonic Consultation
    * Demonic Tutor
    * Dream Halls (Unrestricted, because it sucks)
    * Enlightened Tutor (Unrestricted, because noone would play it)
    * Entomb
    * Fact or Fiction (Unrestricted, mostly as a test, i wonder if it really deserves its place anymore?)
    * Fastbond
    * Flash
    * Frantic Search
    * Gifts Ungiven
    * Grim Monolith (Unrestricted, it's not viable)
    * Gush
    * Imperial Seal
    * Library of Alexandria
    * Lion’s Eye Diamond
    * Lotus Petal
    * Mana Crypt
    * Mana Vault
    * Memory Jar
    * Merchant Scroll
    * Mind’s Desire
    * Mox Diamond (Unrestricted, it's unplayable)
    * Mox Emerald
    * Mox Jet
    * Mox Pearl
    * Mox Ruby
    * Mox Sapphire
    * Mystical Tutor
    * Necropotence
    * Personal Tutor (Unrestricted, again noone plays it, because it really ain't all that good!)
    * Ponder (Unrestricted, i have yet to see ponder getting played nearly as much as brainstorm, and it's at best half as good as brainstorm)
    * Regrowth
    * Sol Ring
    * Strip Mine
    * Time Spiral (Unrestricted,  {U} {U} {4} is just too much for the effect in T1)
    * Time Walk
    * Timetwister
    * Tinker
    * Tolarian Academy
    * Trinisphere
    * Vampiric Tutor
    * Wheel of Fortune
    * Windfall
    * Yawgmoth’s Bargain
    * Yawgmoth’s Will

New cards added:
Bridge from below
Serum powder

Changes in T1:
Dredge gets alot weaker, but hopefully not entirely unplayable.
We gain Burning wish, Fact or fiction, Ponder and some other minor cards to play with! hopefully creating a few new decks! Smile
...And the list gets smaller, which to me, is a bonus!

/Zeus
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« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2008, 11:04:14 pm »

Maybe I went overboard with all the silver bordered cards but I still think:
Mise (restricted)
Mana Screw
Gerrymandering
Once More With Feeling
Goblin Tutor
Staying Power (probably with an errata of some sort)
Strategy Schmategy
World Bottling Kit (maybe in need of errata and maybe restricted)

Blast from the Past
Uktabi Kong
and Goblin Bookie are fair enough to play.
Mise would obviously be restricted for power level reasons but it certainly fits within the rules of the game. Then you could run Ancestral, Mise, Brainstorm, and Ponder as your 3 draw 3s for  {U}. This is also why I would keep brainstorm and ponder restricted.
Mana Screw Broken artifact but not Mox Lotus or Gleemax broken. Way worse than Sol Ring and Mana Crypt but would probably see play and could warrant restriction, who knows.
Gerrymandering was supposed to be in Alpha anyway and was cut but the card doesn't seem like it would be too confusing or time consuming if anyone even bothered playing it.
Once More With Feeling has already been reprinted as Sway of the Stars in a different color and mana cost. The WWWWW Needed to Cast this probably won't lead to anyone playing it but still fits within game rules and isn't too silly.
Goblin Tutor This adds dice rolling effects as a mechanic which isn't too harmful as long as a bunch of cards aren't printed with dice rolling effects (use coin flipping as precedent).
Staying Power This was also supposed to be a real card in Mirrordin block, I think. It was too much of a rules nightmare so it was saved for Unhinged. With Humility already legal though and several cards having fallen victim to erratas this could function if it was errated to only apply to certain effects and not instants or sorceries.
Strategy Shmategy See above reason for Goblin Tutor. Plus this is actually kind of powerful.
World Bottling Kit City in a Bottle is legal and so is Apocalypse Chime. This was another card developed for a real set (I think Mirrordin block again) but was decided it would wreck standard too hard. I think set hosers are interesting and this is the only powerful one. Think of naming Urza's Saga or Alpha/Beta/Unlimited or something. This may be restrictable.
Blast From the Past Lots of abilities, could be confusing but there are more confusing cards out there that are legal
. Doesn't break any rules. This could have been some ridiculous card from Time Spiral.
Uktabi Kong Another card that is fair and falls within game rules. It's an inside joke but not too goofy of a card.
Goblin Bookie See above again.
I doubt most of these cards would see major play (aside from Mise) and I really just hate the idea of 2 entire sets that contain some cards that fit within game rules and precedent being completely banned. Most silver bordered cards should be banned, most are joke cards that only apply to multiplayer casual games or clash with the rules completely. I just hate to see the following sit in non-playable limbo when they could be played.
It could be fun to playtest these in casual vintage or something as I realistically don't see these ever being legalized Sad

Also remember that Mindslaver was supposed to be an Un-card, The Cheese Stands Alone got a functional reprint and Once More With Feeling got a semi-functional reprint and most of the cards I've named were supposed to be black bordered anyway and fit with the rules and aren't too jokey. The rest of the cards on my "unbanned silver bordered" list I couldn't care less about. I just think these have strong cases and most probably wouldn't be viable anyway but again it would just be nice to have the ability to play a few Un cards in real tournaments. Sort of like when Portal and Starter cards were banned, it upset me to see so many potential good cards sit around gathering dust.
Also, I would change Zodiac Dragon back to it's original text and restrict it and probably restrict Squee or Bazzar also (probably Squee actually because Bazzar lets a lot of different decks operate aside from ichorid, like Madness, Threshold, and DragonCombo and they would have 1 Zodiac Dragon and 1 squee to feed their draw engines. Restricting Bazzar doesn't just hurt Ichorid. If I were to restrict anything to hurt Dredge while letting other decks flourish it would be Serum Powder.)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2008, 12:51:53 am by Lurker101 » Logged
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