[deck] budget doomsday

[acidfreak]

Budget Doomsday

Blue 14
4 Force of Will
4 Careful Study
1 Pact of Negation
1 Gush
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ambassador Laquatus


Black 21
4 Doomsday
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Animate Dead


Red 1
1 Worldgorger Dragon

Artifact 7
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault


Land 16
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Watery Grave
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard 15
?

Let's take a common scenario:
Turn 1: Land, Duress
Turn 2: Land, Ritual, Doomsday

It took me a while to figure out how to win from here on the next turn, with no cards in hand that support the combo.
I looked around and found that the best unpowered pile involved the dragon kill using Predict, and requiring 2UB
mana to execute. Not good enough since it wouldn't allow me to go off but it gave the idea to use the dragon combo.

The cheapest doomsday pile i could come up with that has no power9 cards in it is:

Gush
Animate Dead
Careful Study
Worldgorger Dragon
Ambassador Laquatus

Drawstep draw gush, play gush floating UB mana. Draw animate dead & careful study, replay a land,
play careful study, draw worldgorger dragon and ambassador and discard them. You still have two mana floating
to play animate dead and combo off with dragon.

You can play around leyling and extirpate by waiting until you have one of the stack cards in hand
(either a careful study or the animate dead) and stack chain of vapor to bounce leyline or duress to disable extirpate
instead of the study.

Ive thought about adding unmasks, maybe frantic search, misdirections, sensei's and alot more. Too much to fit in.
I'm also looking for an even cheaper stack using a single bazaar of baghdad as the first draw card (if i can afford one :p)

If you comment, keep in mind that it is a budget deck so no power.

Any suggestions?

[Anusien]

First off, Oona, Queen of the Fae is pretty much strictly better than Laquatus because you can't lose to Bargain and it is a much better card to Animate just to beat down.  Other Dragon builds used Sliver Queen as a secondary card to animate against Stax; Oona fulfills both roles.

That's a really neat stack; I think it's pretty damn clever.  It's possible there are other stacks that work, but I don't know any that work for just 3 mana.

I do think you need to decide whether you're a combo deck that can win with Doomsday, or a dedicated Doomsday deck.  Regardless, the cards that seem the weakest to me:
Careful Study #2-4
Ideas Unbound
Chromatic Star
Mana Vault
Yawgmoth's Bargain

Watery Grave should just be more basics.

I don't forsee you ever being able to cast spells like Bargain where you are.  In place I'd consider Cruel Bargain/Infernal Contract.

Alternately you could gain some inspiration from this deck: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13186.html

Edit: You may want to consider Thirst for Knowledge as a way to pitch discard pieces at end of turn and then untap and win.  They could replace the Careful Studies and Ideas Unbound.

[acidfreak]

First off, Oona, Queen of the Fae is pretty much strictly better than Laquatus because you can't lose to Bargain and it is a much better card to Animate just to beat down.  Other Dragon builds used Sliver Queen as a secondary card to animate against Stax; Oona fulfills both roles.

That's a really neat stack; I think it's pretty damn clever.  It's possible there are other stacks that work, but I don't know any that work for just 3 mana.

I do think you need to decide whether you're a combo deck that can win with Doomsday, or a dedicated Doomsday deck.  Regardless, the cards that seem the weakest to me:
Careful Study #2-4
Ideas Unbound
Chromatic Star
Mana Vault
Yawgmoth's Bargain

Watery Grave should just be more basics.

I don't forsee you ever being able to cast spells like Bargain where you are.  In place I'd consider Cruel Bargain/Infernal Contract.

Alternately you could gain some inspiration from this deck: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13186.html

Edit: You may want to consider Thirst for Knowledge as a way to pitch discard pieces at end of turn and then untap and win.  They could replace the Careful Studies and Ideas Unbound.

Oona is indeed alot better kill card, ambassador out.

Careful Study #2-4
Ideas Unbound
Chromatic Star
Mana Vault
Yawgmoth's Bargain

Careful study serves two purposes in this deck: it builds up your threshold, which might not be so important anymore, but originally I had four cabal rituals in it to compensate for having a lack of mana artifacts, so you could go for the tendrils kill as soon as you have multiple rituals and a tutor for will. Chromatic sphere and ideas unbound (which is basically a really bad ancestral) are in it to make doomsday stacks using the tendrils plan. That being said, they are weak cards. Bargain is also for the quick tendrils plan but its not so good without 8 rituals. The upside of bargain is that you win the same turn if you draw into a doomsday.
The other reason for Careful study is that it is part of the dragon combo, and it provides a basic amount of drawing since you play quite a few cards that are suboptimal so it allows you to ditch these cards since you recover all of them if you cast a doomsday anyway. It is also a bit to try and compensate for having no more 4 brainstorms early in the game.
Mana vault is a leftover from the predict kill requiring 4 mana. It can go out.
I'm now trying 3xSensei's DT, 2x Misdirection and 1 windfall and 1 wheel of fortune (with 1 volcanic island).

[acidfreak]

After playing some games with it, it seems that the WGD kill is just too easily hated out, it is too vulnerable to everything from creature kill and bounce to extirpate & leylines. So i read some of menendian's articles on dday stacks in search for ideas, and came up with a new kill, using the same scenario as before (two islands in play, doomsday cast last turn, and no power9 cards), stacking:

Gush
LED
Street Wraith
Mind's Desire
Research/Development

The way this works is: draw gush, play gush floating UU, replay land, float another U, play LED, cycle wraith, in response sac LED for UUU. Draw Desire, you now have 6 mana floating to play it. Storm is 3. Draw and play Reserach/Dev off Minds desire, shuffling 4xTendrils of agony in your deck. Use the two remaining desire effects to cast tendrils for 5 and tendrils for 6, dealing 22 dmg.

This kill works under the same conditions but is obv much harder to stop than the dragon. It does require you to run 4xTendrils too (research dev can get cards in the sideboard right?). This also allows me to ditch all of the crummy cards needed to support the WGD combo (careful studies etc), making more room for disruption and tendrils.

Any thoughts?

Edit: My rules knowledge is a bit foggy; is it possible to sac led in response to putting the cycling effect on the stack?
'Cycling is an activated ability that functions only while the card with cycling is in a player's hand. "Cycling [cost]" means "[Cost], Discard this card: Draw a card."'
So you could stack the cycling effect and then sac LED before drawing the card am i right?

[EnialisLiadon]

You could also use the legacy stack, which wins the turn after doomsday for only 2U.

Predict
Grapeshot
Lion's Eye Diamond
Conjurer's Bauble
Second Sunrise

Predict the Grapeshot away for LED and Bauble.  Crack LED for WWW and pop the bauble (putting nothing on the bottom) to draw Sunrise.  Play Sunrise, getting LED and Bauble back.  Rinse and repeat until you have sufficient storm, then crack LED for RRR and pop bauble to get Grapeshot.

The desire stack looks pretty good, as it dodges grave-hate.  Do note that you don't need four Tendrils--just two.  Research lets you shuffle in up to four cards; not exactly four cards.

[acidfreak]

This is now my new deck, with desire instead of WGD:

Budget Doomsday

Blue 15
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
1 Pact of Negation
1 Gush
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Mind's Desire

Black 23
4 Doomsday
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
3 Unmask
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Street Wraith

Multi 1
1 Research//Development

Artifact 5
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

Land 16
4 Underground Sea
3 Watery Grave
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard 15
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tendrils of Agony
?

I am not entirely sure about some cards though. A little more blue for FoW would be nice, also the sensei's tops are neat but I sometimes I wish I had chromatic spheres instead.

[EnialisLiadon]

Personal Tutor to get the blue count up to 16?  Not sure what to cut, though.

[acidfreak]

Budget Doomsday

Blue 18
4 Force of Will
3 Daze                 // not sure
2 Misdirection        // not sure
1 Pact of Negation
1 Gush
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Mind's Desire
1 Windfall             // not sure

Black 20
4 Doomsday
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Street Wraith

Multi 1
1 Research//Development

Artifact 5
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

Land 16
4 Underground Sea
3 Watery Grave
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard 15
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Massacre
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tendrils of Agony
?

This is what i am now playing. The blue cards that i am not sure about are basically six spots i have left beside the skeleton of my deck. I'm trying to bridge the brainstorm gap with 1 bstorm, 1 ponder, 2 tops. The problem is that it puts the blue count too low to run FoW decently, and this is made worse because you do not want to have to remove MDesire, Gush and Research/Dev as they are the easiest combo cards to win with. I have considered Serum Visions (cantrip lets you win this turn and pitches to FoW) but it is so much worse than Top imo. Daze is sometimes brilliant but sets you back a turn and you really want two islands on the table to win with the Gush stack.

I'm gonna try -3 Daze -2 Misdirection -1 Windfall and +3 Opt +3 Unmask.

[emidln]

As someone who actually plays Doomsday in a Legacy Tendrils deck, I can tell you that 4x Sensei's Top is going to be necessary without 4x Ponder, 4 Brainstorm, 4x Gush. If you look at the ways you have to not pass the turn you end up with:

1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Gush
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Street Wraith
1 Windfall (theoretically)
1 Mind's Desire (again, theoretically)

Which is a lot less than NLD had (4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Gush, 1 Recall, 4 Scroll, 1 DT) or even Legacy Doomsday (4 Brainstorm, 4 Sensei's Divining Top, 4 Ponder). This is going to lead to a lot of "pass the turn" piles that give your opponent opportunities to wreck you. At minimum, you're going to want at least 11 ways to win once you cast Doomsday, and even that is very low.

If you were to go with 4 Sensei's Divining Tops, you could construct stacks like this:

Infernal Contract
Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual
Lion's Eye Diamond
Tendrils of Agony

which will generate 5 storm + tendrils (12 damage with only the stack not counting Doomsday or anything else cast this turn). It requires BBB and a Sensei's Top on the table post-doomsday. Additionally, Sensei's Divining Tops act as a a storm engine when you have extra mana (spinning a top into a top yields 1 storm for 1 colorless mana) and can help smooth draws from Dark Confidant (which isn't a bad call in your maindeck or sideboard). Infernal Contract is easy to cast in your deck and serves as a Doomsday-independent bomb with which you might storm out (see it's use in Grimlong, Pitchlong, and The Contractor). 

As far as protection, Daze can probably be cut because it doesn't do a whole lot when not backed up by other taxing effects like Cursecatcher/Spiketail Drakeling or Mana Denial. You're going to be better off with Pact of Negation, Misdirection, or more Duress effects. Lim-Dul's Vault might be a consideration if you do actually implement 4x Sensei's Top due its synergy with the deck (it's a decent tutor by itself) and its synergy with Sensei's Divining Top (it usually tutors for 2 cards with a top in play).

[acidfreak]

The thing is when you're able to cast dday with three mana left you win anyway using the gush stack or bstorm rit rit MD research. The problem is usually that i have dday in hand, rit to cast it, but only one mana left. What you really want to do is cast doomsday turn 2, then live a turn by the grace of FoW or Duress and untap, draw, win. Now you can only risk this early in the game. If they game stretches out you want to get a ritual, dday, cantrip and three mana up so you can win in one turn. Usually the restraint is not drawing into the dday stack but lack of mana to execute it in the same turn (which is where blotus and ancestral recall really make a difference, as they allow you to build dday stacks that require only 1 or 2 mana to execute).

I now play -3 Daze, -1 Windfall, -2 STop for +3 Opt, +3 Street Wraith.

It really looks like meandeck dday now, except with no power.

Its possible to kill the turn you play dday with two mana and a street wraith or three mana and a cantrip with this stack:

stack
Brainstorm
LED
Ritual
Will
Tendrils

I played some games against fish and won most of the time with just tutoring up necro (always a good decision in this deck). He killed me one game with a draw that i shouldn't have kept and i killed myself once by screwing up my dday stack. Going off is usually easy as duress/unmask do their job well the first two turns of the game, allowing you to go off in one turn once you have ~3/4 land in play.

[Anusien]

What about Slithermuse as a budget Draw7?  It's also much safer as a cast and pass the turn tutor because it does not give the opponent more turns.  Turn 1 Top, turn 2 Unmask, Ritual, Slithermuse is a fine play.  Basically out of a deck like this you want to cast spells and then have your draw 7 help you reload, and Muse seems fine for that.
Also, have you considered Chrome Mox?  Seems like you really want to go turn 1 Duress, turn 2 tutor up Doomsday and win.  Chrome will give you a little more oomph.  You're going to have extra cards anyway because you don't have the extra accel of Moxen.