Ichorid help

[technogeek5000]

So, since there is a T1 tournament coming up ina a reletively short time in my area, I decided to put down my legacy decks for a weekend and experience vintage one more time. The only deck that I can really afford is Ichorid so I guess thats what Im going with. The list im working with is at the bottom of the post in case anyone cares. What I really would like to know is how ichorid fares against the rest of the current T1 metagame. Also for that matter, what is the current metagame and which are the strongest decks currently. The first thing I want my deck to do is fend off hate so I know that I am going to need colored mana in the maindeck and my whole sideboard or nearly all of my sideboard goes to stopping leyline of the void. The only other things I have to worry about are waste/strip, jailer, and crypt (namely when combined with welder). 1 darkblast maindeck kills jailer and welder so it seems like a good idea to run that. Im running 5 lands maindeck so I can run a extra card in my board (some mega tech if your look at my board below) and that gives me 14 cards sideboard for leyline plus my one other card. For Dread return targets I Figured I had 3 really strong options and 2 slots: Flame-kin Zealot, Ancestor's chosen, and Cephalid Sage. For my last question I would like to know which of these two shopuld I be running. Anyways here is my current list.

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
4 City of brass
2 Petrified Field
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Golgari Grave troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari thug
1 Darkblast
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from below
4 Leyline of the void
4 Chalice of the void
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask
2 Dread Return
1 Ancestor's chosen
1 Flamekin Zealot

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Emerald Charm
2 Wispmare
1 Ancestral Recall

Thoughts?

[FadeToBlack]

To start, I would suggest checking out Meadberts primer for manaless Ichroid builds found here:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35200.0

Basically any possible discussion on decklists goes on here and was pretty vital to my playing of Ichorid. But in case you don't have time to read, I'll share my short thoughts.

The biggest discussion is usually about the correct Dread Return package. From what I've read and what I've tested, you either go the FKZ route with 8 cards (4 Dread Return, 2 Cephalid Sage, 2 FKZ) or you go with 2 Dread Return/2 Targets and 4 more disruption pieces (MD Leyline, Unmask, etc). I heavily prefer the latter option as I find that you typically don't need to win right away G1, and the extra disruption just seems better.

As for targets, its typically 4 of them that are discussed (outside of FKZ): Ancestor's Chosen, Angel of Despair, Sundering Titan, and Eternal Witness. I'd check the thread for a more full discussion of these, but in an unknown meta, I'd probably pack a Chosen and Despair. Its hard to really go wrong though.

As far as the rest of the deck goes, the only change I would make is -1 Undiscovered Paradise for +1 Strip Mine. 8 lands postboard should be sufficient, you'll never need mana game 1 (outside the random darkblast and MAYBE having to hardcast a Narc/Thug), and Strip Mine will randomly win games for you.

Last thing to touch up is the board. The only change I would make is a second Darkblast for the Recall...which just seems really random.

I find Ichorid is pretty good against the field...though its kind've dependent on your opponent's board. You'll win like 95% of G1's, so knowing how to board against each matchup is key. You'll bring in the full board almost every game (except for Darkblast), usually dropping some combination of Leylines/Unmask/Chalice and random 1 of's such as Thug, Imp, Ichorid, etc. Also to note, I almost always side out the dread return package (leaving just 1 Dread Return for the random Grave Troll and to make tokens) because its typically just not necessary.

As noted at the top, its definitely worth your time to read through that thread, as it covers everything. Good Luck!

[nero angelo]

hmm, I'm an Ichorid player but not an expert. I still have tons of things to learn but I'll share you BOTH my decklists. (Mana-Ichorid and Manaless Ichorid)


Manaless Ichorid:

4 Bazaar of Bahgdad
4 City of Brass
2 Petrified Field

4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return

4 Unmask
4 Cabal Theraphy

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Golgari Thug
1 Angel of Despair
1 Flamekin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage (Finally, after 3 months of searching!! >.< )
1 Darkblast

Board:

4 Contagion (kills Yxlid Jailers, Welders, Lackeys, etc...)
4 Wispmare (Kills Leyline of the Void, Engineered Plagues, other nasty stuff...)
2 Ancient Grudge (kills the Pithing Needle, Platinum Angel...)
3 Gemstone Mine (Could be replaced w/ 3x Chain of Vapors or Echoing Truths?)
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Blazing Archon


**Notes:

If Storm decks are all around you, I suggest you replace the Angel of Despair with Ancestor's Chosen.

Darksteel Colossus are for the freakish Painter-decks.
Blazing Archon are for ALL aggro decks out there.



Mana-Ichorid:

4 Bazaar of Bahgdad
4 Cephalid Colesium
4 City of Brass
3 Petrified Field
1 Stripmine

3 Breakthrough (I only have 3, sorry)
3 Careful Study

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Theraphy
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Dread Return

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Golgari Thug
1 Angel of Despair
1 Flamekin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage (Finally, after 3 months of searching!! >.< )
1 Darkblast


Sideboard:

3 Chain of Vapor
4 Contagion
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Balzing Archon
4 Wispmare
2 Ancient Grudge


Mana-Ichorid is FASTER than Manaless versions, but it lacks disruption and most likely dies to Tormod's Crypt alone. >.<
However, Mana-Ichorid packs more hate in the SB.


Well, that's my list.
Again, I'm no expert, I just happen to have some experience in playing the deck.

[Harlequin]

Here's a List I've been working, and even have a little mini-artical I was working on about it.  I haven't really field tested yet.  I've done some goldfishing, and the deck feels about right.  I think it would be really good in the field, but I simply haven't had time to test it.

FOW-Dredge:
4 Bazaar
4 Cephalid Colesium
4 City of Brass
1 Gemstone Mine / Chrome Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal

4 Careful Study
2 Breakthrough
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall

11 Dredgers: GGTroll, Stinky, 2xThug, 1xDarkblast
4 Narcomeba
4 Bridge from below
2 Ichorid

4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therepy
4 Dread Return
3 River Kelpie
1 Flamekin Zealot

---------------------
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Anceint Grudge
2 Contagion
2 Wispmare
=====================

Ichorid has an amazing game 1, but generally can't keep up momentum for games 2 and 3.  Why? because you just don't get lucky enough to draw a quick win along side the right anti-hate cards in every match.  The goal was to take another look at Ichorid and see what could be done about game 2-3 smoothing.

The Breakthrough about Breakthough
Breakthrough seems like it would be insane in ichorid.  Tossing it out for 1 mana is a fairly easy third of your deck into the bin. However 1) you have to already have dredgers in the yard, 2) you have to resolve it, 3) you have to win with no cards in hand.  Each condition alone is easy to overcome for ichorid, but the combination of each incremental issue makes Breakthrough often not worth the gamble.  Especially when you compare it to a 3-card draw effect like Ancestral or Brainstorm.  Sure you end up with 1 less dredge but in this build that is often insignifigant.  Lastly, breakthough doesn't actually "dig" for answers post board - unless you spend more than 1 mana.  Cards like Recall, Brainstorm, and Careful study do.

Why not run the "Best" Free spell in the game? 
Manaless ichorid was developed because there were just SO many free disruption spells.  But how did the best free spell get overlooked?  I'm refering ofcourse to Force of Will.  Force of Will is often un-expected from Ichorid, also it gives you a blanket answer to Sphere, Tormod's Crypt, Jailor, Planar Void, Fanatic, Trisphere, Triskellion, Tinker, [insert non-leyline ichorid answer].  Basically Force is going to trump any game-1 chances a deck has against ichorid. 

Kelpie, the Gift that keeps on giving. 
I have found that all this deck needs to do is get Kelpie in play.  In goldfishing, fizzling after even a bear-bones Keplie is under 5%.  Also, he builds your handsize... which is important if you need to find force or chain of vapor.  For this reason, 3 kelpies and 4 dread returns help increase the chance of a turn 2 kelpie which invarriably leads to a turn 2 win.  There's basically never a reason to opt not to return kelpie if you don't have leathal FKZ yet.

Ichorid's Roll in dredge decks.
Is Ichorid important to find ASAP?  No.  You rarely choose to return an ichorid to play on your 1st upkeep of the game.  In a build without 4 thugs, you sacrafice alot by RFGing stinkies early.  This means that Ichorid in a goldfish game is often reserved for the turn 3 win.  And in at least 1/2 of the goldfishing wins that Ichorid is used - he is Win-More.  Is Ichorid Good in Multiples?  Generally No.  If you are in a situation where Ichorid is your out (like against trinisphere) Having 3-4 in the yard is often not signifigantly better than having 1.  1 gives you zombies, and zombies win you the slow-match.  When it comes to spheres, FOW-Dredge has additional outs game 1 against early sphere effects (ie FOW).  Also you run plenty of maindeck mana, so you can often afford the 1 mana to dread return the win.  For this reason Ichorid is an important out against balls.dec, however you really don't need 4 or even 3 - two should be enough for any mana'ed build of dredge.

Power of Cabal Therepy.  One of the most powerful abilites of this deck is to hardcast Cabal Therepy from your hand via colored mana.  Between an early therepy and having FoW online - you should have no problem ensuring your short 3 turn window stays open. 

15 Card Sideboard.
One of the main problems with manaless ichorid is that it essentially -has- to transformationally board into mana'ed Ichorid for games 2 and 3.  This means you usually get about a 10 card sideboard.  FOW-Dredge has a full 15 card board (with the arguement that 4 cards go to Leyline). 

FOW-Less FOW Manaless-less Ichorid? 
I could actually see for certain meta's swapping maindeck force for the sideboarded Leylines.  This would mean you are bringing in Force when it is better supported by the deck.  FOW and Leyline both serve a very similar hybrid roll of both protection and disruption.  Which is better is a question I leave to be answered by your meta.

[nero angelo]

Is 3 River Khelpies that much needed or you can run -1 Khelpie and +1 Angel of Despair?

I don't know, but I won games using Angel of Despair.

[Harlequin]

I personally don't think Angel of Despair is that good.  There are just so few maindeck situations where Angel will win you games that no other card would.  Sure they exsist, but I think in almost every game 1 situation you can win with either FOW or just by going lethal with FKZ.  Khelpie also increases you blue count, which is dangrously low as is.

[nero angelo]

I'm also worried about blue card count.

I wanted to test the build but I don't have powers and FoW's (omg).



I'm curious, as I have stated, I'm no expert on Ichorid, I just play it...

How do people deal w/ hate? I mean, yes, Ichorid wins 99.9% of game 1. games 2 and 3 are soooooooo questionable.

Hate is being brought out. LotV's and Crypts being MD'd....

Which cards do you guys remove to bring in the "anti"-hate?