Suicide Black deck. Help a n00b out!

[AngeloBangelo]

Hi guys.

I've been playing Magic for a while now, but never really vintage. Mainly just type 2. So, I'm looking to make a Suicide Black deck as powerful as possible, within reason haha. I can't afford a lotus or a mox jet right now so minus those, this is my decklist as it is right now:

4 Nantuko Shade
4 Negator
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hippy

4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Extirpate
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor

4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
8 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Lotus Petal

Sideboard is mainly going to be anti-aggro hopefully. I haven't made the SB yet. Like I said, I don't play Vintage at all yet really, but these are the cards I've used to make a sui black deck as of now. ANY HELP AT ALL is greatly appreciated! Anything from taking out 1-2 extirpates (I don't know if 4 is overkill) or even sideboard suggestions! Ok, I'm done rambling. Anything you guys can do to help me make this deck a bit better! Thanks a lot!

[AngeloBangelo]

Oh, and one more thing. I've been looking into adding Chains of Mephistopheles or Nether Void. Not sure if I'd want them MD or SB. Do either of those cards still have a place in Vintage at all?

[nineisnoone]

-4x Hymn, + 4x Thoughtseize, better to get information and the right card then 2 random cards
-4x Extirpate, + 4x Null Rod, works well with your Waste/Strip/Sinkhole package

I'm guessing you don't want to shell out for Vamp/Imp/D.Consult?

Negator and Hippie and Shade seem a bit dated. 

But that being said, 8 Duress/Control + Hippie/Negator seems like a solid win against Combo/Control.

You'll have a problem with Stax as black doesn't really have any good answers for them.  Oath of Ghouls might the best option, which would help against aggro as well.

You also probably want some main deck creature kill of the Smother variety. 

You can cut a few lands....

Chains would be good in the SB. 

[AngeloBangelo]

Thank you very much for the advice. From advice I've gotten from other forums as well on this deck, they said it is difficult to make it really competitive and recommended a mono black control build similar to this by Jeff Kruger:

4 Mishra's Factory
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5 Swamp
4 The Rack
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Extirpate
4 Mind Twist
4 Dark Ritual
4 Dark Confidant
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
1 Mox Jet
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Black Lotus

Sideboard
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Extirpate
3 Damnation
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Nether Void
1 Haunting Wind
1 Chains of Mephistopheles

Would that be an overall better deck if I wanted to do well in tournaments? MBC over Suicide Black, I mean. Because I have most of the cards for that deck as well, so I'm just curious.

[nineisnoone]

I'm not really big on Mind Twist or Rack.

Again, I would add Nulls and Thoughtseize to the deck.  I would rather go Raven's Crime + Dakmor Salvage than Mind Twist.  Dredge back Salvage, and use it to replay Raven's Crime for it's Retrace.  It also has a synergy with Top in that you know what you are Dredging to your GY.

Factory seems a bit much.  There is only have 8 Black mana sources.

Edict over Smother is an interesting call.  I can see both.  Edict if you worry about Oath/Tinker.  Smother if you anticipate aggro. 

So...

-4 Hymn
-4 Mind Twist
-4 Rack
-4 Factories
-1 Y-Will
-1 Sinkhoke

+4 Thoughtseize
+4 Null Rod
+2 Swamps
+1 Dakmor Salvage
+4 Negator
+2 Raven's Crime
+1 Demonic Tutor (which I'm assuming you have)

I would rather just go Negator is a good card against anything that doesn't run creatures.  Cutting Factories/Rack would take away your clock, so you need something.  Negator still kills in 4 attacks if they have no creatures. 

While going mono-limits your deck, the deck gives you slightly worse disruption to BUG.  Slightly better mana disruption.  And a better clock.  You have a limited ability to deal with Artifacts and Enchantments in general.  Specifically your aggro base will be weaker since Goyf > Negator.  You are on the one had solid against Stax since you are pretty much waste proof, but you can't deal with their board.  Combo should be fine.  Control is questionable with no ability to answer top decks.  Null would be great here since Vault/Grindstone is often the control win of choice.  Edict would also give you an out against Oath (for a turn at least) and Tinker -> DSC. 

[Metanoia]

Thank you very much for the advice. From advice I've gotten from other forums as well on this deck, they said it is difficult to make it really competitive and recommended a mono black control build similar to this by Jeff Kruger:

4 Mishra's Factory
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5 Swamp
...

Have you tested this deck? I have to admit I haven't, but I played a lot of Suicide Black, back in the day when it was an answer to mono blue.

It seems to me your mana-base cannot support your spells. The amount of black producers seems way off. I used at least 15 swamps, but 16 or 17 usually felt better, then come 5 strips which you desparately need for disruption, and your total base is 22 lands.

If you want an excellent primer on the subject of Suicide Black you can read the one by Legend. It is dated by now, but the basic points are still the same and still very valid today.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=11797.msg222583#msg222583

As a quick update:

Since the days of Legend, Discard has changed from being a threat to being an enabler. I believe Hymn to Tourach is no longer playable in Type 1 (Ichorid, Goblin Welder, Y Will etc)

So it should definately be replaced by Thoughtseize.

A second point that is not adressed in the primer (I believe) but which came to me during my testing, back in the day is:

Do I need Dark Ritual?
If you are not going for storm, and you are just running one Yawgmoth's Will, without any tutors...
Do the Dark Rituals actually help you?

I'm not saying they are useless. But I do say that they require significant thought and a deck design that is built around them.

[Darkenslight]

What about replacing the Rituals with Moxen (Jet and Chrome)?

That still gives you the acceleration, whilst not quite being as turbocharged as the 'Swamp, rit, Hippy' play.

[Harlequin]

For this type of deck, I would probably be shooting for 21 lands/artifacts with +4 Rits for mana.  Your mana denial package is probably focused too heavily on lands.  Your meta may be focused more to "budget" decks but you can't ignore the existance of moxen.

Another general point is don't be afraid of 3-ofs.  Lastly I know sinkholes are Iconic sui-black... but for 1 more mana you get the added consistancy and versility of Crucible.

Lets start with the essentials:
25 mana TBD
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hippy
4 Yawg, DT, Vamp, Necropotence
4 Duress

To that lets add some 3-of meat:
3 Crucible
3 Extirpate
3 Null Rod

That leaves us with 10 slots left to define the deck. 
You probably want at least 1 more solid beater at the 3 or 4-of level. 
> Negator - Powerful against combo and control.  Worthless (or down right dangrous) against aggro and stax
> Nantuko Shade - tried and true.  Good on both offense and defense, but requires mana comitment to really bring down the game.  Also he dodges some removal.
> Bitterblossom - A bit on the expensive side for a no-proxy enviroment.  But bitterblossom is actually fairly nasty when it comes down on turn 1 to 3.  It also improves your game against stax where commitment-free permenants are great.
> Withered Wretch - not as much of a beater, but adds more utility against graveyard decks (which is often a bad match up for discard decks).

More Discard:
The core deck above has only 4 duress and 4 hypies for discard.  This is likely not enough. 
> Thoughtsieze - Tried and true, gives you a much greater chance of turn-1 duress. 
> Hymn to Tourach -  Hymn is good in the early game, but diminishes in value as the game progresses.  This makes it somewhat hard to decide the right number to run.  As a 4-of means you will likely see one in the early game and 1 in the late game.  Running 3 means you are likely to see 1 mid game or late game.  Hymn to me is an awkward card to try and fit into a deck.
> Raven's Crime - I have played a fair amount of testing on both sides of the table for this card.  I think people have a hard time seeing the -real- value of the card because it's effect is not usually immediate gratification.  Here are the two most common cards that get tossed and what the final outcome is:
 - They toss a land.  This is fairly good for you in the long run.  Your deck is built on mana denial and duress/sieze can't even take lands.
 - They toss a 'bad' blue card.  Ahh the diamond in the rough.  The power of this is that it makes the cost of thier next force of will much greater. 
 - There is a chance they have a "dead" card they just toss, its fairly rare but this just makes Hypies and Hymns(if you run them) better.
> Cabal Therepy.  I really like Cabal Therepy as a 2-3 of for decks looking to add that extra removal.  Therepy is not the easiest card to play, you need to know the metagame and the decks, and the best players will be able to read the game state to name the 'right' card.  But the ability to "shotgun" it twice makes it hard to miss.

Removal
You probably want some form of removal.  Losing to Tinker is frown-town. 
> Edict.  Diabolic Edict is the instant-staple.  Chainers has a VERY expensive flashback.  And Cruel Edict is not misdirrectable.  Take your pick.
> Small Pox.  Another Edict like removal card that rips down a land and a card in hand too.
> Darkblast.  Reusable, but it only kills annoyances like welder and confidant. 
> Snuff Out.  A very dangerous card if you run confidant. 
> Smother... its good~ish I'd probably rather run Perish in the board.
> Faceless Butcher.  If your meta is slow~ish and full of aggro, Facelss Butcher is really not that bad of a card all around.

Wildcards:
> Entomb.  Yes, Entomb.  Looking back at the list, there are certianly more than a handful of cards you can "tutor" for with Entomb: Any land with crucible in play, Raven's Crime, Cabal Therepy, and Darkblast.  It wouldn't be out of the question to run 1-2 Petrified Fields along with a few utility lands.  Petrified Fields alows you to Raven's Crime via your land drop with crucible in play.
> Nethervoid.  If you run heavy on man-lands nethervoid isn't that bad of an option as 1 or 2 of.  Probably a bit lofty.
> Maze of Ith.  I don't count non-mana lands as part of the manabase.  So if I want to add Maze it will cost me slots in the final 10 cards.  All in all its not a bad card.

Putting it all together:
Step 1: Concept, in this case mono-black aggro control
Step 2: Manabase # in this case 25 cards counting Dark Rit
Step 3: Core Cards, this should come out to between 40-50 cards with the manabase.
Step 4: Use the remaining slots to plug up the holes in the deck.
Step 5: Sideboard, this generally ends up being cards that didn't fit the maindeck.
Step 6: Now pick the cards for the manabase
Step 7: Step Back and look at the deck.
Step 8: Test

So for Step 4 Here's what I would personally go with...

4 Dark Confidant
4 Hippy
4 Yawg, DT, Vamp, Necropotence
4 Duress
3 Crucible
3 Extirpate
3 Null Rod

2 Cabal Therepy
2 Raven's Crime (or 1 crime 1 darkblast)
1 Entomb
2 Bitter Blossom
3 Small Pox

With the board being:
2 Bitter Blossom
1 Null Rod
1 Crucible
1 Extirpate
4 Withered Wretch
3 Relic of Protogenitus
2 Maze of Ith / Diabolic Edict / Parish

Finally Manabase:
5 Fetchlands
7 Swamps
3 Wasteland
1 Stripmine

1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Urbog, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Spawning Pool / Tomb of Urami
2 Petrified Field

4 Dark Ritual

Thats probably what I would do for my own manabase.  Again it depends on what you choose for the deck.

[nineisnoone]

> Bitterblossom - A bit on the expensive side for a no-proxy enviroment.  But bitterblossom is actually fairly nasty when it comes down on turn 1 to 3.  It also improves your game against stax where commitment-free permenants are great.

> Small Pox.  Another Edict like removal card that rips down a land and a card in hand too.

Can't believe I forgot those cards. 

Bitterblossom is great against Workshop and Aggro.  Negator is great against Combo and Control.

Small Pox is also better than Sinkhole.  I can't believe I forgot it because I've always been a huge fan.  Works well with Dakmor Salvage which works well with Raven's Crime.

Sui-Black seems better than I thought.

[Smmenen]

I think this archetype could be significantly improved, but it will require abandoning many of the cards we cling to.   

Edward A. Paltzik (aka “Legend”) wrote a fantastic primer, making his case for Suicide Black.   His primer remains excellent reading today.   

Primer Part 1
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=11797.0
Primer Part 2
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=11798.0