Creatureless Fish

[Guli]

Hi, I am Guli, some of you might know me from my Mr. Gaddock topic in open section. A very interesting rather new approach. That topic belongs in open section because of the insight various people could provide. I recommend checking it out and read it if you are a fish fan.

That being said I think it's time to start with a different fish idea. I can't really see a way to drastically improve Mr. Gaddock so I decided to start working on something new and design another competitive and innovative deck. Their might be cards that are familiar from earlier builds because they really impressed me or are simply good because they provide answers to common problems.

I have this feeling about the next cards I can't explain. I feel like they are hardcore card advantage. A one time investment that will provide resources for the rest of the game is GOOD in my new deck idea. So again I am already creating a basic criteria. An example is Counterbalance. But since the theme is fish (creatures) i will be abusing the next cards:



You play it and from that point on you will have a long term advantage. You do have to stay alive to make it work though. So adding control elements is key. Actually it might be wise to add a heavy control base.

A card that inspired me to design a deck around these 2 creature generators is skullclamp



All right, I fired the first shot. Off we go.

To make a disadvantage an advantage with a card like Goblin Assault you need cards that interact with creatures. Skullclamp is a perfect fit. It's new so I am looking for more synergistic cards. While skullclamp is a must 4x add I also thought of a couple of 1x adds:



Jitte is extremely good in here. I even considered to go with 4x jitte and ignore legendary factor. You will see that I have a way to cycle my dead cards. How?



With token generators/skullclamp as a draw engine you can pump the cards into more tokens and more cards. Dump those jitte for infestation.

Summarize:
- 2 enchantments that will create free tokens
- Skullclamp is an extremely powerful draw engine here
- Zombie infestation will cycle and speed things up clockwise
- You have a heavy control base (will come up next)
- The possibility of jitte, opposition, ... is interesting


The control base

4 Force of Will
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
4 Negate

This is really solid. With a full compliment of moxes you will always drop something useful turn 1, keep the mana open for negate or go for duress depending on the match up. Enchantments tend to survive a bit better than the rest of card types. This is important in here. You generate free cards that attack and create cards. The cards that are created eat up the cards of the opponent. This kind of card advantage is extremely strong. It is very hard to break a deck like this when they have achieved control. There will be a force or/and negate waiting for you in best case and in worst multiple counters/duress. And in the mean time he is generating free creatures and drawing free cards...

Cards like jitte and opposition should be used of course. I think it is interesting to add 1x of each at the least and tutor them when a specific situation arises. But I also think that Jitte can be abused in a deck like this. Remember bitterblossom does make you lose life and jitte can give you life.

I suggest to brutally add rack and ruin main deck to take care of Null Rod/Needle/Chalice a likes. A little bit control slaver style. Maybe Fire/Ice is interesting as well.

I am NOT posting a list. And I want to ask that the feedback stays within this norm. I have a list but it is so rough i refrain from posting it prematurely. When I think the time is right I will most likely open up a thread in open section backing up my idea with well built arguments and insights.

Anything is welcome! There is room for a lot in this thread.

Fire away the feedback,

Guli

[Sporkcore]

In a build like this, I could see Standstill seeing play in it. Drop a Bitterblossom, lay a Standstill and sit back with cards in hand to counter whatever they want to play when they break Standstill. Also, what about Drains in the deck? It would help power out the enchantments and equipment, as well as machine gun your tokens with Skullclamp to draw a lot of cards.

[maatn]

Guli, this is a really great idea. Like it a lot!

I do have some thoughts though.

At first creatureless fish sounds horrible to me. Looking at the direction you are pointing in, I see what you mean. I also see how this list could go multiple directions from here:
- the more 'landstill' direction (no creatures, perhaps drains, standstill, man-lands etc.)
- the more 'fishy' direction (man lands, perhaps include creatures > GBW baghdad bob by vroman)
- the more 'Dawn of the dead' direction (abusing zombie infestation)

If I were to choose, I would probably try to go BUG. Gofy and Bitterblossoms do some dirty work. I would also keep zombie infestation and some skullclamps, include Life from the Loam and at least 6 duress-effects. If there is any space left, include 4 Null Rods.

Well, I failed that experiment..Tried to include creatures in creatureless fish.

Perhaps the landstill direction is easier?

In legacy, around the summer of '08 I read a column on StarcityGames on 5c landstill. The green splash bringing in Goyfs of course.
But then again, landstill is too much control, and too little fishy.

I would definitively like to hear more about your ideas for this list.

Some questions for you:

Have you looked into the directions I mentioned above?
How will your creatureless fish differ from those lists?

[Nydaeli]

Cabal Therapy definitely deserves consideration, since it should be really easy to flash back.

[Dr.KnowMaD]

Therapies in the hand disrupt package and Spell Snare would help out the oath match.

[mr.grim]

fantastic idea time to put k. grip back in the board lol

[Guli]

In a build like this, I could see Standstill seeing play in it. Drop a Bitterblossom, lay a Standstill and sit back with cards in hand to counter whatever they want to play when they break Standstill. Also, what about Drains in the deck? It would help power out the enchantments and equipment, as well as machine gun your tokens with Skullclamp to draw a lot of cards.

Standstill is a nice draw of course, i considered it but I have a feeling that you want waste/strip + mishra/muta and then you are creating a land still deck which has its advantages and disadvantages. The idea here is to design something new, of course you will have to use cards that see play too.
Mana Drain is most likely playable however with the 3 colors I think Negate is the better route here. These are all my assumptions of course but I am stating things out of experience, can't ignore that. My feedback on your suggestions is the next: Solid cards, really, but my intuition tells me that there are better fits. I will add something to this in my next quote.

Have you looked into the directions I mentioned above?
How will your creatureless fish differ from those lists?

In continuation of my previous quote, I want this deck to have a focus. A very strong early disruption package (heavy control) with 6duress/4Force/4Negate and maybe even more. And I want to use these cards extensively the early turns to have a strong disruptive effect. And I want it to be consistent, every game I want to see these cards hanging out in my hand. I don't want to worry about protecting my creatures. I don't mind losing tokens at all. And as we all know enchantments are generally less vulnerable than creatures. I just find the thought having a card in play that makes FREE cards every turn, backed up with counters/duress, very appealing. And on top of that you can replenish your counter/duress wall with clamps, again for free. Don't make the mistake putting 'for free' in the context of going shopping. In Vintage this means hardcore card advantage and this wins games.

Cabal Therapy definitely deserves consideration, since it should be really easy to flash back.

This is something I can not ignore. You are correct. I have no idea what number but definitely some should be added.

I would like the give some pointers in which direction i want to take this idea. The difference with real creatures is the investment. You invest in a card with a body that has some ability or a big body. The time you take for that is a loss of tempo strictly speaking. By this I do not mean it is a loss on itself. I mean that a player must choose what he plays (invests) that will have an impact on the rest of the game.

There is no reason to play creatures unless it is necessary. Things like Bazaar/Squee come to mind when you see Zombie Infestation. But is that all required? I think with a strong control heavy base and the token generators/clamp you are looking at a powerful shell.

[EnialisLiadon]

I don't see the logic in being forced to run Mishra's and Strip effects if you run Standstill.  Standstill seems really good after dropping a creature-generator; it's not forcing you to contort the deck into a landstill/token hybrid of a deck.

[Guli]

I don't see the logic in being forced to run Mishra's and Strip effects if you run Standstill.  Standstill seems really good after dropping a creature-generator; it's not forcing you to contort the deck into a landstill/token hybrid of a deck.

The deck can better focus on forcing through skullclamp. Once he hits this deck doesn't need other draw cards. The 2 mana spend on standstill can be left open for negate or cast duress or a bitterblossom.

Standstill is great with a token generator but could become problematic without mishras/wastes. And I don't want to go that route at all. I want to spend my mana on duress/negate/clamps/tutor when I am not casting a token generator. This being said, standstill should be at least tested. Still not entirely convinced here.

[Harlequin]

Without working on a list.  My inital reaction is that you won't have enough blue to support Force.  I think you'll end up with either tons of duress/therepies, or a blue permission package with force/negate/(MisD, Daze, Stifle, Leak, etc).  I can't see the deck support both given your win conditions are ALL non-blue.

[Troy_Costisick]

Without working on a list.  My inital reaction is that you won't have enough blue to support Force.  I think you'll end up with either tons of duress/therepies, or a blue permission package with force/negate/(MisD, Daze, Stifle, Leak, etc).  I can't see the deck support both given your win conditions are ALL non-blue.

I have to agree, but the bare bones here are good.  Bitterblossom + Goblin Assault + Skull Clamp + Standstill + Cabal Therapy is sweet.

Peace,

-Troy

[Guli]

How about good old confidant? Acting as a long term card advantage,

Without working on a list.  My inital reaction is that you won't have enough blue to support Force.  I think you'll end up with either tons of duress/therepies, or a blue permission package with force/negate/(MisD, Daze, Stifle, Leak, etc).  I can't see the deck support both given your win conditions are ALL non-blue.

I have no problems replacing force of will with other counters or cabal's. But isn't it too early to state that there isn't enough blue. You can always add blue cards in the open slots. Thoughtseize should be replaced with cabal here i think.

[Troy_Costisick]

Here’s a couple lists I’ve developed:

Spells 
1   Ancestral Recall     
4   Cabal Therapy     
1   Cruel Edict   
1   Demonic Tutor     
3   Duress     
1   Echoing Truth     
1   Extirpate     
1   Mystical Tutor     
1   Time Walk     
1   Vampiric Tutor   


Enchantments 
4   Bitterblossom     
3   Goblin Assault     
4   Standstill   
2   Zombie Infestation   


Artifacts 
1   Black Lotus     
1   Lotus Petal   
1   Mox Jet     
1   Mox Ruby     
1   Mox Sapphire     
3   Null Rod     
3   Skullclamp   


Lands 
3   Badlands     
1   Bloodstained Mire     
1   Island   
1   Library of Alexandria     
4   Mishra's Factory     
4   Polluted Delta     
1   Swamp   
4   Underground Sea     
2   Volcanic Island     

 
   
Sideboard     (15 cards) 
1   Darksteel Colossus   
1   Echoing Truth     
3   Extirpate     
2   Pyroblast     
2   Red Elemental Blast   
1   Tinker     
1   Wipe Away   
4   Tormod's Crypt

The first one is a three color version.  Its advantages are that you get Goblin Assault in the main (extra creature production) and 4 red blasts in the side vs. Mana Drain decks and other Fish decks.  Alternatively, one could include 4 Greater Gargadons to combat Oath decks.  I’m averaging 1 disruption card (Duress, Therapy, Null Rod) every other opening had.  Which isn’t too bad.

Deck #2:

Creatures 
4   Dark Confidant

Spells 
1   Ancestral Recall     
1   Brainstorm     
4   Cabal Therapy     
1   Chain of Vapor   
1   Cruel Edict     
1   Demonic Tutor     
4   Duress     
1   Echoing Truth     
1   Extirpate Buy   
1   Mystical Tutor     
1   Time Walk     
1   Vampiric Tutor     


Enchantments 
4   Bitterblossom 
4   Standstill   


Artifacts 
1   Black Lotus   
1   Lotus Petal     
1   Mox Jet     
1   Mox Ruby     
1   Mox Sapphire     
4   Null Rod   
3   Skullclamp   


Lands 
1   Bloodstained Mire     
2   Island   
1   Library of Alexandria   
4   Mishra's Factory   
4   Polluted Delta     
2   Swamp     
4   Underground Sea   

This one is two colors.  The advantage is a much more stable mana base and 8 duress effects instead of just 7.  It incorporates Dark Confidant for more card draw, but also at a greater loss of life.  It’s a bit more risky, but I think it may be worth it.  The sideboard is geared to beat Ichorid and TPS (with Trickbind to stifle the Storm ability on Tendrils).  This build probably has a weaker game vs. Oath.  I’m averaging 1 piece of disruption 2 out of 3 hands with this deck, which is better than the previous build. 

One thing that I did not resolve is that anti-synergy between Null Rod and Skull Clamp.  Maybe that’s not important.  Maybe it is.

I hope this helps some. 

Peace,

-Troy

[Guli]

First if all,

I am NOT posting a list. And I want to ask that the feedback stays within this norm. I have a list but it is so rough i refrain from posting it prematurely. When I think the time is right I will most likely open up a thread in open section backing up my idea with well built arguments and insights.

This was in my original post.

I will still give you feedback on your lists though, but this thread is not about lists I would like everybody know that.

1) Null Rod and Skullclamp are not created to live on the same planet. They are both powerful cards that serve their purpose in totally different decks. This is a big design flaw from your part. (in my opinion)

2) You are already talking about sideboards, we haven't created a main deck yet.

Take these comments and don't take them personal please. I love feedback. You are simply rushing things thats all

[Troy_Costisick]

First if all,

I am NOT posting a list. And I want to ask that the feedback stays within this norm. I have a list but it is so rough i refrain from posting it prematurely. When I think the time is right I will most likely open up a thread in open section backing up my idea with well built arguments and insights.

This was in my original post.

I will still give you feedback on your lists though, but this thread is not about lists I would like everybody know that.

1) Null Rod and Skullclamp are not created to live on the same planet. They are both powerful cards that serve their purpose in totally different decks. This is a big design flaw from your part. (in my opinion)

2) You are already talking about sideboards, we haven't created a main deck yet.

Take these comments and don't take them personal please. I love feedback. You are simply rushing things thats all

I appologize for that.  I missed that last line.

[Harlequin]

How about good old confidant? Acting as a long term card advantage,

Without working on a list.  My inital reaction is that you won't have enough blue to support Force.  I think you'll end up with either tons of duress/therepies, or a blue permission package with force/negate/(MisD, Daze, Stifle, Leak, etc).  I can't see the deck support both given your win conditions are ALL non-blue.

I have no problems replacing force of will with other counters or cabal's. But isn't it too early to state that there isn't enough blue. You can always add blue cards in the open slots. Thoughtseize should be replaced with cabal here i think.

I just talking space.  looking at rough numbers:
20-25 mana
6-10 win conditions
4-8 engine cards (maybe 1/2 blue, this includes clamp)
4-10 duress effects
0-3 Black restricted cards

Looking at that, you have at most 4 blue cards in the first 40-50 cards.

[Guli]

How about good old confidant? Acting as a long term card advantage,

Without working on a list.  My inital reaction is that you won't have enough blue to support Force.  I think you'll end up with either tons of duress/therepies, or a blue permission package with force/negate/(MisD, Daze, Stifle, Leak, etc).  I can't see the deck support both given your win conditions are ALL non-blue.

I have no problems replacing force of will with other counters or cabal's. But isn't it too early to state that there isn't enough blue. You can always add blue cards in the open slots. Thoughtseize should be replaced with cabal here i think.

I just talking space.  looking at rough numbers:
20-25 mana
6-10 win conditions
4-8 engine cards (maybe 1/2 blue, this includes clamp)
4-10 duress effects
0-3 Black restricted cards

Looking at that, you have at most 4 blue cards in the first 40-50 cards.

Let's suppose Force of Will can not be supported. (I still think it can but nvm me) Without Force of Will how do you think it will affect the disruption part of the deck?

[Dr.KnowMaD]

I don't see this deck as having good matches with anything combo like.  The win conditions are cool but very slow.  Force of Will is going to be needed unless something can take its place in quick disruption.  As said before in the post, the Beginning Game is the most dangerous for this deck.

Something like root maze, but that's the wrong color, maybe the artifact that has similar effect, or at least along those lines.

Hesitation, for more blue disruption?

Hand disruption is good but I wouldn't rest on it.

Dr.KnowMaD
 

[Guli]

Force of Will is a must, this is a control deck with token generators and skullclamp is your Ophidian. I Don't want to go to a suicidal route. I want to pack strong disruption, a strong draw engine and enough removal/answers/tutors.

Maybe the idea of sitting on a couple counters and removals with a token generator isn't optimal. Too slowish for T1? I admit a 1/1 isn't really frightening. But with cabal + skullclamp this might become a serious problem for control. I would love free permanents against smokestack. Also against aggro you can replace your dudes while they can't. Arcane lab can always be added in main deck if combo is that problematic. Most of my actions are in clamp/infestation anyway, i don't really see this deck playing a lot of spells mid game. More like clamp away your 1/1 duded to make 2/2 zombies. (i have been testing, discovering stuff). And you really want Jitte in many situations. It can create a serious clock and well against aggro its obvious. Plus the life gain can be relevant against combo and to negate the effect of blossom.

I also think it's not a bad idea to add things like rebuild/hurkR/rack and ruin/shattering spree to take care of cards like Rod/Needle/Time Vault/Painter. It will also improve shop match up.

[TheJesus]

I was just looking at bitterblossum the other day.  I believe the biggest problem is going to be the extremely slow clock.  If you cast it turn 1, you only get 1 creature and 0 dmg turn 2.  Through turn 5 it's 4 creautres and a total of 6 dmg. This deck has to slow the game down.

We are off-color for many of the enchantment, multi-creature, or token bonuses like convoke mechanic, enchtress-like abilities, enchantment bonuses, sterling grove, or enlightened tutor.  There are a few on-color cards though.  All the black tutors(including upto 4x Diabolic Intent), Copy Enchantment (I can't see less than 2 of these), the engine cards Guli proposed, opposition and static orb, and null rods; plus the 'sacrifice a creature abilities': Read the Runes (for a draw X), ashnod's altar, blood funeral, cabal therapy, contamination, dark triumph, Gate to Phyrexia (A black card that kills artifacts), Goblin Bombardment, Jinxed Idol, Phyrexian Tower, and Shivan Harvest.

These all require resolving one of the enchantments to be any good.  A heavy discard / counter base should give plenty of time to find our engine cards, but we don't really have a combo win.  I see the deck playing more like stax or land still working toward inevitability.

Spellsputter Sprite is good with bitterblossum, but it's a creature.

If we go a slow control deck there is Obliterate and friends that reset without killing enchantments.

[Darkenslight]

No Disrupt for FoW?  I'd have thought that was a good 'soft' counter,what with the tight mana required for combo.