Need help w/ classic Control Slaver

[Random]

Hi there. I've just recently started out in Vintage, and I'm very excited about finally playing the fastest of formats. I've been playing a Control Slaver deck in MWS to get the feel of it, and I've started to get okay with it. The main problem is, even post-board, I have real problems with Long/Tendrils-type builds, even post-board. I know that fast combo is traditionally a CS weak spot, but how do folks deal with this? I know that at least one traditional school of thought is Tormod's Crypt, stopping (or helping stop) YawgWill as a win route.

Is just mulling to Crypt a viable strategy? I haven't had much luck with it so far. I am also running Tutors in the sideboard to fetch Tinker --> Plats, if I can get one turn or so.

Also, against SickLong, they don't seem to need YawgWill to win (though it is nice). Maybe I've just had back luck, but it seems like every time I have a counter for Ad Nauseam (which seems like the right spell in the chain to counter), they either Duress it first, Pact it or have YawgWill as backup. Am I just not mulliganing aggressively enough? Decklist is below, if needed.

    4  Volcanic Island
    2  Underground Sea
    1  Tolarian Academy
    2  Polluted Delta
    3  Island
    3  Flooded Strand
    1  Library of Alexandria

    4  Goblin Welder
    1  Triskelion
    1  Pentavus

    1  Brainstorm
    1  Mana Crypt
    4  Force of Will
    1  Demonic Tutor
    4  Mana Drain
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Time Walk
    1  Tinker
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Tormod's Crypt
    4  Thirst for Knowledge
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Emerald
    2  Mindslaver
    1  Merchant Scroll
    1  Sensei's Divining Top
    1  Gifts Ungiven
    1  Rack and Ruin
    1  Mana Vault
    3  Impulse
    1  Echoing Truth

SB: 2  Rack and Ruin
SB: 2  Fire/Ice
SB: 1  Pyroclasm
SB: 2  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1  Pyroblast
SB: 1  Firespout
SB: 2  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1  Platinum Angel
SB: 1  Mystical Tutor
SB: 1  Vampiric Tutor

Thanks for any help!

[mr.grim]

looking at your list what about darksteel colossus..... you run tinker ...... maybe waste/strip/crucibles of worlds.. side board options could be chalice the void........ and what about work shops. it seems like you got a combo build with out the tendrils......

[Thegreatgonzo]

Triskelion and pentavus could be melted in one slot : triskelavus. So you have one slot left for another fatty (sundering titan, colossus, or platinum), or something good (ponder, fact or fiction)

Also, I think Mystical tutor and vampiric tutor are maindeck stuff : they are great on their own, and they allow the "tutor gift pile" (vampiric; demonic; mystical; whatever, often lotus).

Tormod's crypt is almost useless against long decks. It protects you from one card of their deck*. A good one, yes, but one they don't really need to resolve to win. Good sideboard options are either duress effects or sphere of resistance/ trinisphere, or a mix of both. First turn duress or sphere is a good way to see turn 2 in this matchup. And seeing turn two is a good start to see turn 3. And seeing turn 3  is a good start to win the game against long decks.

By the way, how are impulse in slaver? Never tested them, but having something to do on turn one (land + mox) seems good on paper. What about them?

* : oops, almost forgot cabal ritual.

My two cents

[hitman]

The main problem is, even post-board, I have real problems with Long/Tendrils-type builds, even post-board. I know that fast combo is traditionally a CS weak spot, but how do folks deal with this? I know that at least one traditional school of thought is Tormod's Crypt, stopping (or helping stop) YawgWill as a win route.

Control Slaver needs a turn one play that changes the dynamic of the Ritual-based combo matchup.  Fundamentally, a Ritual-based combo deck needs to hit ten spells, one of which is a Tendrils of Agony.  This requirement involves a great deal of mana and is also the area where the archetype is weakest.  There are two ways Slaver can interact with combo decks relevantly.  One would be to incorporate mana denial in the form of Wasteland/Strip Mine with Crucible of Worlds and Gorilla Shaman.  The problem with this strategy is competent combo players won't be walking themselves into Wasteland effects and Gorilla Shaman is best used against Moxes that just sit on the table waiting to be used.  Combo players can hold the Moxes until they need them.  The best way for Slaver to deal with combo decks is to attack the fundamental dynamic of the various combo archetypes, hitting ten spells in one turn.  Sphere of Resistance puts a much greater mana strain on them and Pyrostatic Pillar deals them damage that closes several common lines of play for a Ritual-based deck.  Pyrostatic Pillar may be the better card for the TPS matchup but can make you vulnerable to a "mini" Tendrils if you're not careful with your life total and appears to be weak against the Ad Nauseam lists with four Chain of Vapor in the mainboard.  It's immune to the removal they would likely bring in against you, though, like Hurkyl's Recall. 

Incorporating these strategies can provide you the time needed to develop your manabase so you can effectively "lock" your opponent out of the game with counterspells.

Alternatively, if you use a win condition that you can reliably end the game with soon after adequate disruption has been used, Duress may be all you need.  Duress is ultimately only a speed bump to Long-style decks.  If the speed bump enables you to win before your opponent, it's done its job. 

I would recommend Sphere of Resistance over the other options.  Instead of using other common forms of disruption, Slaver is best suited for attacking decks where they're fundamentally weakest.  Sphere of Resistance fills this role quite well against combo.  Duress is good but sometimes Slaver can't finish the job before combo decks find the win.  Sphere has to be dealt with before they can win most of the time.  Hopefully this was a help.

[Random]

Thanks for the replies, all 

@ mr. grim
Darksteel Colossus is certainly a Tinker possibility, but he doesn't work very well with Welder, as he is kind of challenging to get into a graveyard. As for Strip/Crucible, that's certainly a viable strategy, and one that Strategic Slaver uses already. I've been thinking about trying it in my build, but I want to get more familiar with what I've got first.

@ Thegreatgonzo
Triskelavus is another one worth a try, I just haven't yet. I am leery about it, however, for the reason that it seems to lose the best parts of each - the manaless activation of Trisk and the 5 counters of Pent. I am really (really) addicted to the five extra chances that Pentavus gives you at a backbreaking Mindslaver. As I say, however, I plan to try it at some point.

As a general rule, I love Impulse. So far, I like it in the deck. For the record, I have not tried Strategic, because I don't want to pay for them I found that the deck, sans Impulse, was awfully prone to a hand that was keepable, but just never got there. Impulse has helped with that a lot. As to the disadvantage tutors, I don't mind them as much as some do, but I found that I was having trouble making room for enough of a "silver bullet" package to really make them good. This also deserves further attention.

@hitman
Thanks for this very helpful post. I've found the same problem with the Wasteland/Strip route and the Gorilla route. Sphere of Resistance is a good idea, and I just found Thorn of Amythest in my binder, which of course acts similarly, and has the benefit of being owned by me ;P Another possibility was CotV, but I've found that I'm not really crazy about it at either setting (0 or 1), as it either locks me out of almost all of my artifact mana (0), or all the rest of my artifact mana, plus the main point of the deck (Welders). Certainly, all of Sphere/Thorn/CotV get the benefit of being Artifacts in an artifact-centric deck. Sideboarding a couple of Thorns is okay when extras can pitch to Thirst.

I may also post a summary of some of my early CS trial and error, if other beginner types like me think it would be valuable.

[Duncan]

Darksteel Colossus is certainly a Tinker possibility, but he doesn't work very well with Welder, as he is kind of challenging to get into a graveyard. As for Strip/Crucible, that's certainly a viable strategy, and one that Strategic Slaver uses already. I've been thinking about trying it in my build, but I want to get more familiar with what I've got first.

I'd replace the Pentavus and Triskelion with Triskelavus. Against most decks a single Slaver activation will likely win you the game, 3-5 activations (depending on your artifact mana) should do the job.

Now you have one open slot for an extra robot. Sundering Titan is commonly played there, it has synergy with welder, can be cast of drain mana and nukes opponent's lands

[Marske]

Good to see people are still working on this deck and even new players are interested in it. That being said CS is a deck I've played a lot and I think I have a little bit of an idea about where the current CS builds need to go. First let me point you to another thread on TMD for inspiration: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36516.0

This thread was started by The Atog Lord (Rich Shay) and if anybody knows a lot about CS it's him. Also I would like to point you guys to the CS build by Rock Lee which uses some new shards cards for draw and a sort of early game: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36804.0

Now why am I referencing all these other threads ? Well because Slaver has seen it's share of discussions and I think looking at all the points made above we are reinventing the wheel with this thread.

The creature base of:
Goblin Welder / Gorilla Shaman
Sundering Titan
Triskelavus

Has been set in stone by all players (good or bad) that play Slaver as being the "right" creature base. Rock Lee added Master of Etherium for a better early game in favor of other power houses like Gifts, Fact, etc. These are the two routes a CS player can go, sure maybe other creatures could fit in the deck but debating if Pentavus + Triskelion is better then Triskelavus / Titan seems like a "reinventing the wheel" discussion. Don't get me wrong I applaud people talking about this deck but I don't see the point in starting over.

The additional draw (cantrips if you like) in CS have been talked about a lot since the loss of brainstorm. With people playing Night's Whisper, Impulse, Strategic Planning, Couriers Capsule, Portent, etc. which one is the best ? I don't know currently I'm rather impressed with the capsule as a cantrip. It pitches to FoW (ok Impulse does that do) it pitches to TFK, can be put in / out of play with Welder and grabs you 2 cards. Sure you don't get to see 4 cards and chose the best of them but in the long run you are going to draw a lot more cards without the dangers of a tormod's crypt spoiling your plans (if you play plannings) or having to shuffle 3 super cards away an hoping you picked the right one (when playing Impulse). The capsule is clearly better then Nights Whisper because it's blue, artifact, grabs the same amount for no lifeloss.

So with that all being said, how do you attack "Long" decks with slaver ? Well this little problem has been going trough the minds of every Slaver player, and I'm currently happy with attacking the manabase and disrupting them more. But I've seen CS players being successful against Combo with just 3 Reb's from the sideboard, this is all a matter of how good your opponents are going to be and how good you are at knowing what to stop.

I would go with a Sphere, Stile, Negate, Duress type sideboard for "Long" decks and a CoW + strip mine main although this will be your worst match-up regardless.

[mr.grim]

dear random........my bad on big d. tho im a huge fan of titan for cs

[honestabe]

How about a Tezzeret?

Turn all those pretty artifacts into 5/5s