Terminator (Affinity Bomberman)

[nineisnoone]

This deck is basically an adaptation of Cesar Fernandez's Tezzeret list to Bomberman...

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?creator=Cesar%20Fernandez
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36954.0

4   Seat of the Synod
2   Flooded Strand   
3    Polluted Delta
1   Tolarian Academy
3   Island      
2   Tundra      
1   Tolaria West   

1   Black Lotus   
1   Lotus Petal   
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Ruby   
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Jet   
1   Mox Emerald   
1   Mana Crypt
1   Sol Ring   

1   Tinker   
1   Darksteel Colossus
4   Trinket Mage   
3   Auriok Salvagers   

1   Ancestral Recall   
1   Merchant Scroll
4   Thoughtcast
4   Thirst for Knowledge   

4   Chalice of the Void   
1   Lodestone Bauble
1   Tormod's Crypt
1   Engineered Explosives
1   Meekstone

4   Force of Will
3   Mana Drain   
1   Wipe Away

Just decided to give it a different name...

It's mostly a traditional Bomberman deck with a few key additions....

4x Chalice of the Void
1x Lodestone Bauble
4x Thoughtcast
4x Seat of Synod

Chalice is an exceptionally strong card.  Hitting all the restricted 1's, Dark Ritual against combo, Duress/Thoughtseize against control, and even Welder and REB is a gamebreaking play.  Notice that it only hits 3 cards off the list.  With Duress and Dark Ritual being frequently chosen for storm decks this helps the drain decks weaker match-ups.  Creatures gives you a leg up against Tezzert by nature. Chalice is also playable off any colors so of color moxen are much more useful early on.

However, Chalice @ 1 interferes with the combo win.  That is why the deck has to add Lodestone Bauble.  Bauble is actually better in the combo (assuming I am understanding the rules correctly and "up to 4 basic lands" can be zero) because you can target your opponent draw to their draw in excess of their deck to win the game on their upkeep.  Barring a Platinum Angel (just realized this does not target an opponent, only their graveyard so True Believer actually does not work)  it's actually a better combo imo.  However, the card is less useful in general, but cantripping for a colorless mana is perfectly fine.  Let's not forget that it generates a free mana off Thoughtcast and Tolarian Academy and that it pitches to Thirst for Knowledge.  Also, it's better to recycle for drawing purposes than Aether Spellbomb. 

Thoughtcast is basically awesome.  I catch myself frequently during testing that I am "only" drawing 2 cards for 2 mana.  With full Moxen, 4 Seat of Synod, and 4 Chalice it is fairly easy to at least get it down to 2 mana early in the game.  Sometimes you'll have to cast it for 3, but often this is stronger than Thirst for Knowledge early on because Thirst makes your Thoughtcast's weaker and if you don't have an artifact to discard then it's basically worse off. 

Both Thoughtcast and Chalice interact very strongly with the Bomberman elements.  Namely, Trinket Mage.  Trinket Mage can search out a Mana Crypt or Black Lotus to let you play Chalice @ 1.  Trinket Mage can also search out a Mox Sapphire or Seat of Synod for Thoughcast.  In testing, this has been a very strong play.  Most of the time yielding draw 2 for 1 blue mana.

The weaknesses of the deck are anything that runs Null Rod (probably add 4x Spell Snares to help in this department) and Wasteland (Pithing Needle)... so basically most fish Variants have a very strong match-up against the deck.

Additionally, I feel somewhat light on the control elements.  So I might also add some Negate's to the sideboard in match-ups where Trinket Mage would prove to be sub-optimal. 

So rough sideboard...

3x Pithing Needle
4x Spell Snare
4x Negate
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Threads of Disloyalty

(cutting 3-4 Chalice's when bringing in Spell Snare and Pithing Needle)

[Legendre]

I tried running 4 Thoughtcasts for a while in a similar Bomberman build but did not find it as useful as you do.  Granted the mana cost could get down to 2 sometimes, but more often than not this was the best case scenario.  In the end, Brainstorm and Ponder were more effective, and I also had some success(superior to Thoughtcast, at least) with a splash of black and Night's Whisper.

I have only begun playing Bomberman in the last few months, and I am new to Mana Drain.  Allow me to ask a few more questions about your card choices;

Are the 4 CotV really worth the loss you incur by forcing yourself into the Lodestone Bauble combo?  Don't get me wrong, it's clever as hell, but it seems that Aether Spellbomb is much more useful outside of the Bomberman combo.  Because of this, it makes sense to play with more than just a single copy(of Bauble or Spellbomb) thus making your combo all that much easier to achieve.

Where's Time Walk? 

My solution to the storm/combo problem has been a single maindeck Chalice, with help from Trinket Mage, and 4 Ethersworn Canonist.  Canonist really rocks storm, often even more effectively than Chalice @ 1. 

Does the Divining Top do much for you?  It gets a lot of trash talk in other threads, and I've not found much use for it in my Bomberman.  Mana Vault is a better fit IMO, but I'd like to hear what you have to say on the matter.

[nineisnoone]

I don't presume this direction to be optimal, but I have been happy so far.  The lack of Brainstorm (WOW.... I can't believe that isn't in there) is an oversight that should be corrected (perhaps -1 Drain + 1 Brainstorm), but I don't know if Ponder is really worth it.  I've always preferred Ponder in more aggressive combo builds.  I don't think the reward for digging deeper is better than the card advantage.  Or at the very least, I would add things like Negate to the list before I would consider running Ponder.

Overall I do think the reward of Thoughtcast is worth it.  Late game it just becomes amazing and early game it has the advantage that it pitches to Force of Will.  Have you really found it so bad?  What is your artifact count?  I try to keep at least 20 in the deck.  When it works, it has just been so much better that it is makes up for the times where it is sub-optimal.  And in those cases it's not even that bad.  This is not considering how it weakens the mana base though which is definitely a downside and might prove to be fatal.

I haven't tested Night's Whisper though.  So I can't really comment to that. 

I think Chalice of the Void is better than Aether Spellbomb.  So I am fine with that part of trade off. 

As far as Lodestone Bauble versus Aether Spellbomb goes... I actually like Bauble more than Spellbomb some of the time, the times that I draw it.  It plays for 0 pumping your artifact count and it cantrips for 1.  Spellbomb is 1 to plan and 1 to cycle.  However, the other half of the time I like less it because I will pretty much never tutor for Lodestone unless I can combo off.  Whereas sometimes Spellbomb is actually useful at times. 

However, most of the time I just discard either to Thirst anyways.  Also searching out Engineered Explosives with Trinket Mage is not a bad play.  It is typically better against aggro decks and really is only out-shined by Spellbomb when dealing with DSC or when comboing out.  However, it still is useful with Salvager and Lotus.  It might not "win" you the game outright, but when you can destroy all non-land permanents that don't have a cost of 4 (sometimes 1) and you have infinite mana that puts you in a position where the game is really yours to lose.  Having draw spells that leave you at an advantage is particularly better in this case as well.  Of course, Explosives won't really do as much in combo/control match-up but Spellbomb wouldn't either. 

So in short, generally both Bauble and Spellbomb are usually Thirst fodder.  I am happier to draw into Bauble than Spellbomb.  And Trinket Mage for Engineered Explosives is not at all a bad alternative to tutoring for Spellbomb and is better in many situations (aggro), still quite strong in others (Salvagers + Lotus), only weaker in a few (combo and Tinker for DSC/Titan).  Overall I'm fairly pleased.

With Lodestone Bauble there is no need for Time Walk.  To me this is another advantage to choosing this path (Chalice and Lodestone).  Time Walk was a card that I hated to draw early on.  I rarely ever wanted to play it early and only wanted it to be in my deck when I combo-ed out.  Having Lodestone lets me avoid the attack phase all together and lets me cut (what I believed) to be merely an expensive cantrip most of the time.

I've had a strong love affair with Canonist in the past but he just feels too symmetric for my taste.  He will certainly hose the combo match-up, but post-board combo usually has a lot of artifact bounce and there is even the occasional Wipe Away in the sideboard. Of course, Chalice doesn't do any better in this department.  However, Chalice is far less symmetric of a card than Canonist is, hitting very few cards in your deck (most not especially relevant).  A lot of this is merely due to my own apprehension about it.  The game feels different with a Cannonist in play and I don't really know how best to take advantage of it.  Many times I don't like that I can't protect my own spells.  I especially don't like it with Thoughtcast. 

Perhaps I am just paranoid but I just haven't gotten a good feel for making Cannonist to be an advantage outside of in my RGW Zoo deck.  Most of the time he just feels like a very symmetric slowdown which doesn't feel as much as an advantage as I thought it would.  Even against storm if you can't press that slowdown efficiently they will just wait till you cast a spell on your turn and then bounce it and go off. 

Top hasn't given me much.  I could definitely see this being a Mana Vault.  The main reason why I have it in the deck is because I have in the past explored Counterbalance.  Mana Vault would be a fine substitute otherwise, but my issue with Mana Vault is that the deck doesn't especially need another mana producer either.  I am actually considering Meekstone.  It deals with DSC, assuming that it can't kill you with a single swing.  It even limits Tarm, Negator, and Nacatl to a single attack and prevents them from blocking.  I would also consider Spellbomb.  Needle is another option that handles many threats. 

I could see myself cutting Top and Mana Crypt/Sol Ring for Pithing Needle and Meekstone/Spellbomb.  I'll have to test it out.

[Legendre]

I believe my artifact count was about 15 plus 6 artifact lands back then.  Perhaps what pushes you over the edge into Thoughtcast feasibility is the CotV's, which could very well make the difference between a consistent 2 mana Thoughtcast and a 3 mana one.

I completely agree that Engineered Explosives is a worthy Trinket Mage target.  Running 4 mages makes EE nearly an auto-include, at least in my meta.  I would not advocate Spellbomb as superior to EE in any way, at least as a one of.  What I am worried about is that you have only a single card that truly wraps up the game once you go infinite with Bomber, and you may have already exhausted your Trinket Mages pulling out the Lotus, or whatever.

I see how the Bauble allows you to run without Time Walk, that had not occurred to me.  Nonetheless, is Time Walk really that bad early game?  I suppose it's a matter of opinion to some degree, but it is rarely so useless as to be merely a cantrip for me.

I want to throw out another thought on this--you mentioned Negate and Mana Leak at various points.  Perhaps this is blasphemy in these parts, but is Mana Drain really superior to either of these counters in Bomberman?  I rarely develop a significant advantage off drain mana, and the UU cost makes it too slow against storm.  More and more it's better to get Negate online first turn than to sit on a Mana Drain.

Perhaps I am just paranoid but I just haven't gotten a good feel for making Cannonist to be an advantage outside of in my RGW Zoo deck.  Most of the time he just feels like a very symmetric slowdown which doesn't feel as much as an advantage as I thought it would.  Even against storm if you can't press that slowdown efficiently they will just wait till you cast a spell on your turn and then bounce it and go off.

I find that if Canonist is already on the board vs storm, you should never find a need to play a non-artifact spell and open her up, rather the highest priority should be protecting her--her own clock(combined with a likely trinket mage) is enough to win it.

How often do you end up boarding out most of your Chalices?

[nineisnoone]

It sounds like you have around the same number of artifacts as I do.  Maybe it does have to do with my selection of Chalice?  I don't know.  I may also just be overstating the regularity of Thoughtcast at 2 or less.  Perhaps you see it in isolation?  What I mean is both Thirst for Knowledge and Trinket Mage are also 3 mana plays, so often times when Thoughtcast would cast me 3 mana I don't really note it because I have other plays that I can make instead. 

With Lodestone costing zero mana, you actually have one more card to tutor for it with Tolaria West, which has the bonus of being uncounterable.  So this version would have more ways to get the combo over a Spellbomb version.

And I'm not really sure what you mean by using up all your Trinket Mages.  Wouldn't it be the same if I ran Aether Spellbomb instead of Lodestone?  In normal bomberman builds there is only one card, Spellbomb, that allows a combo win. 

I'm not trying to lambast Time Walk.  It's restricted for a reason. I could always run Time Walk if I felt it was good for the deck, but now that I run Lodestone Time Walk becomes optional rather than mandatory.  And I haven't found it to be better than other options.

I want to throw out another thought on this--you mentioned Negate and Mana Leak at various points.  Perhaps this is blasphemy in these parts, but is Mana Drain really superior to either of these counters in Bomberman?  I rarely develop a significant advantage off drain mana, and the UU cost makes it too slow against storm.  More and more it's better to get Negate online first turn than to sit on a Mana Drain.

To be honest, I have had the same feelings on the subject.  Both in terms of wanting to run Negate and feeling that it might be blasphemy to pick Negate over Mana Drain.   But yes, Mana Drain is almost always a full turn slower than Negate.  I don't know if I want to be the one to champion it though, especially since my deck is somewhat deviant already.  But I wouldn't argue against a decisions to use Negates over Drains.

As far as Canonist goes, that seems rather idealistic.  Combo can go with creatures in the sideboard, Tarmogoyf or Negator.  Both of which are stronger clocks than Canonist.  Meaning you'll still have to counter their spells on top of protecting your own Canonist.  I've also seen EE as the sideboard card of choice as well which plays Canonist against you. 

But really what are we arguing about on the card?  I don't feel it's a suitable replacement for Chalice as Chalice is better in more match-ups, is far less symmetric, is tutorable by Trinket Mage, and does not require a Tundra.  As far as the sideboard goes, I could definitely see it being an anti-combo card.  But I don't see how it can be a good card for the maindeck, especially considering the bane of my deck is Null Rod.  I'm not saying Canonist is a bad card.  It's certainly fine against storm and I have considered it for the sideboard, but it does not feel like a main deck card. 

I do not sideboard Chalice out very frequently.  My sideboard is very much in flux, but I have a good idea of the direction I want to take it for most match-ups.  In match-ups where I do not want to play Chalice @ 1, I usually just leave it in and play for Chalice @ 2 (which still only hits 5 cards in the main deck).  Aggro, Combo, and Ichorid I usually play Chalice @ 1 for assorted 1 drops, Aether Vial, Duress, Dark Ritual, Cabal Therapy, and other things.  Against Oath and Fish I usually play Chalice @ 2 and trade my Mana Drains and Thoughtcasts for Spell Snares and Swords/Threads.  I'm not sure against Shops and Slaver/Tezzeret.  While Chalice isn't especially good in those match-ups, I'm not sure what I would trade it for as I'm not sure what direction I want to take my sideboard.

Changes to the main deck... Cut 1 Top for 1 Meekstone.  Cut 1 Mana Drain for Merchant Scroll.  Cut 1 Echoing Truth for Echoing Truth.

[Legendre]

Have you had a chance to test the Meekstone out yet?  How is it?  Im thinking I might want one SB.

What about the possibility of running fewer TFK?  You have a ton of draw, which I'm sure helps to accelerate the combo out at times.  But in the other thread you mentioned that running so many draw cards leaves you lean on disruption.  Would it be worth switching out, say, 2(or more, potentially) TFK to find a place for more control stuff?  The slight anti-synergy between TFK and Thoughtcast is another reason this might be a good idea.

Another thought:  your main justification for SB Spell Snare is Null Rod.  Now obviously it is handy against another Drain deck, but if it's primary purpose is Rod defense, wouldn't you be better served by Disenchant/Seal?  On a similar note, is there a lot of Fish/Rod in your area?  Or is Null Rod just popular in general?

[nineisnoone]

I ended up cutting it.  I didn't like that it interfered with my own DSC, but it was fairly useful and it buys you loads of time.  Turning Tarmogoyf into a summoning sickness ridden burn spell is great.  But I think your right in that it is probably more of a Sideboard card.

There is a slight anti-synergy between the two, but it rarely comes into play.  I could see cutting a few of them, but I'm not really sure.  While I would like to cram more disruption into the deck, I also sometimes feel like it takes too long as is to get a creature or combo pieces.  So if I cut the draw I'd be seeing less cards weakening that aspect of the deck.  It's a very delicate balance and I'm not quite sure yet where it is. 

Null Rod are popular enough that I expect to play against it.  It's not dominant, but I just feel the match-up is so bad that I have to make serious consideration for the deck. 

I have considered artifact hate, but I don't like that it forces me into white (and I reealllly don't want to run a Plain in the main deck).  I'm not really sure how best to deal with the Rod Fish match-up.  Artifact hate is certainly the straight-forward way of dealing with it, but often times Fish decks run more disruption than you so getting it down can be difficult.  For instance, if you go with Seal, they run Stifle.  If you run Disenchant, it forces me to get a Tundra in preparation which opens me up to Wasteland.  Not to mention they run Duress, Force of Will, Cursecatcher, and sometimes Negate.

My SBing plan would likely see the removal of some off-color mana moxen, Chalice of the Void, and Trinket Mage for Pithing Needle, a Meekstone, Spell Snare (most of their threats are 2 mana), and some combination of additional counters and bounce spells.  Basically the approach being win the counter war and out draw them.  And if you have to, tutor (adding a Mystical Tutor in the SB) for Hurkyll's Recall or Wipe Away. 

If you can keep Rod off the table, the match-up is actually decent.  When they have it on the table, it's pretty rough not only to play under but to get it off. 

And I've followed your suggestion and cut the Mana Drains and gone with Negates.  Sometimes I've missed the Drain Mana but more often it let me have a hand with turn 1 disruption. 

[nineisnoone]

Made some changes.

4   Seat of the Synod
4   Flooded Strand   
1   Tolarian Academy
3   Island     
3   Tundra     
1   Tolaria West   

1   Black Lotus   
1   Lotus Petal   
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Ruby   
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Jet   
1   Mox Emerald   
1   Mana Crypt

1   Tinker   
1   Darksteel Colossus
4   Trinket Mage   
3   Auriok Salvagers   

1   Ancestral Recall   
4   Thoughtcast
4   Thirst for Knowledge   

3   Chalice of the Void   
2   Tormod's Crypt
2   Engineered Explosives
1   Lodestone Bauble

4   Force of Will
4   Negate
1   Merchant Scroll
1   Wipe Away

I often found myself discarding a Crypt/Explosives and the later playing a Trinket Mage and wanting to tutor for one of them.  Sol Ring is sometimes missed, but not really.  I cut a Chalice, but the additional Crypt helps out against storm and other decks so it is fairly useful.  I run Scroll and Wipe Away which seems decent enough against DSC.  I found that I don't really need the Drain mana all that often and much prefered the faster Negate.  It makes you somewhat weaker against Drain decks, but in those cases I'll sometimes play out a Chalice @ 2 to shut it down.