Back to Basics: T1 Single card discussion

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

This card seems to be very good in the current field of type 1. It seems very good vs, stax variants, drain decks, fish, etc, etc. For example unless its aggro shop, stacks will loose to having there workshops, and every other land staying tapped. Same goes with most drain decks. Most drain based decks are only playing 3 or 4 (AT MOST) basic lands. So if they decide to cast any spells throughout the game (normally how you win a game) they are going to stay tapped down quite a bit. Fish only has a few basic lands aswell, and even more so they need to cast creatures to win the game shutting there mana base down. More so this card seems even better paired up with chalice of the void or null rod, to shut down the artifact mana a deck may produce. Or even a mox monkey. Why hasn't this card seen any type of play in maybe a mono U shell or even a UB control shell, where as black opens a better card pool...What does everyone else think?

[Smmenen]

Back to Basics used to be an amazing card.  And then Wizards printed Onslaught.  Now it's not. 

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Back to Basics used to be an amazing card.  And then Wizards printed Onslaught.  Now it's not. 

Do you say this because of the fetch lands being able to grab the basic lands of a deck? But When you think about it how many basic lands are played in most decks. Maybe 3 or 4 at absolute most. It just seems like that if I were playing Back to Basics, and having one on the table, while playing other spells (such as draw spells, win conditions, etc) my opponent would be forced to do something about it. Which would make them do something weather counter a spell, play a blocker, etc. Its inevitable they will be tapping non basics. On the same token most BUG fish decks play 1 if any basics, same applies with alot of stax decks. I guess in my opinion this card can be extremely good in the correct build

As a matter of fact the more I look at tournament results and reports, the more im seeing how few basic lands are being played. Maybe im hyping back to basics up way to much

[andrewpate]

Steve isn't saying that Back to Basics is not a powerful effect.  It absolutely is.  He just meant that it isn't good enough anymore.  In Vintage, there's a pretty steep power requirement.  Note that Back to Basics sees some play even in Legacy, and it would clearly be overpoweringly strong in Extended.  It's just not quite Vintage material.

You say that decks only run 3 or so basic lands, but nearly any Vintage deck is perfectly fine on 3 lands, artifact mana, and maybe a 1-shot use of a nonbasic or two.  Back to Basics would be, at worst, a mildly annoying speed bump, buying you maybe a couple of turns, max.  Not good enough for 3 mana, especially not when Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon are available, among other stronger cards.

[overseer1234]

Back to Basics used to be an amazing card.  And then Wizards printed Onslaught.  Now it's not. 

Do you say this because of the fetch lands being able to grab the basic lands of a deck? But When you think about it how many basic lands are played in most decks. Maybe 3 or 4 at absolute most. It just seems like that if I were playing Back to Basics, and having one on the table, while playing other spells (such as draw spells, win conditions, etc) my opponent would be forced to do something about it. Which would make them do something weather counter a spell, play a blocker, etc. Its inevitable they will be tapping non basics. On the same token most BUG fish decks play 1 if any basics, same applies with alot of stax decks. I guess in my opinion this card can be extremely good in the correct build

As a matter of fact the more I look at tournament results and reports, the more im seeing how few basic lands are being played. Maybe im hyping back to basics up way to much

Well I've tinkered with the same thoughts a while back, but never really tested it (since steve came up whith chrismas beatings, and I'm not someone that like's to play blue).
From the top of my head here's where I started:

4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Back to Basics  (4 of each might be to much)
4 Force of will
4 Counterspell (if we play negate you could run the wasteland/strip mine complement)
4 Stifle (fetching basic's? I think not...)
4 Cursecatcher (good in BUg fish, so ...)
4 Spellstutter Sprite (simple good)
4 Cloud of Fearies (helps stutter...)
4 Ninja of Deep Hours (gives stutter another go+draws cards)
20 Island

Some intell on the list: only basic islands (hence BtB + the fact that you want UU open forl counterspell i)
Obviously this list is  nowhere near perfect, (4BtB is probably to much) but it at least gives you a starting point (i started with the idea of a budget non powered deck, feel free to ad power If you like...)

Annyway,

To make a long post short: I also like Back To basics , and I'm willing to test/help developing a deck with it.

Greetzzzz.

[the_lord_shaper]

Try Back 2 Basics in a mono blue control deck with Mana Drains. Drain into null rods and B2B. It's a very good combination.

[nineisnoone]

The biggest problem with these sorts of strategies is that you are either relying on poor deck building (i.e. build a deck that can't play on basics only).  Or against strategies where there are simply much better cards (i.e. why wouldn't you just play Energy Flux against Workshop).

It's an okay card as a sort of "catch them with their pants down" kind of thing going on.  But I don't think I'd ever really recommend it.

[Random Noob]

I'm used to play it with 4 Null Rod, 6 Stifle, 4 Dread...

B2B is better now than in the 4 Gush era, but even back then i had some succes with Stifles and Rod, I think its some kind of a Meta Card, sometimes people are playing less Basics then you will easily own them.

[zeus-online]

It's amazing vs. workshops! But it's very much a meta-game thing...And good players will probably fetch out basics as soon as they think you're playing mono-blue.

/Zeus

[John Jones]

It's amazing vs. workshops! But it's very much a meta-game thing...And good players will probably fetch out basics as soon as they think you're playing mono-blue.

/Zeus

Because they are playing monoblue I would probably get non basics unless I have already seen wastelands or back to basics. Also, it's kind of hard to tell they are playing mono blue until turns 2-4.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

It's amazing vs. workshops! But it's very much a meta-game thing...And good players will probably fetch out basics as soon as they think you're playing mono-blue.

/Zeus

To be quite honest i was thinking more along the lines of a Ub build maybe with 2 swamps or something to have a better card pool. Such as Vampiric tutor, Demonic tutor, and Yawg Will. Or even a UR build utilizing gorilla shaman (to eat all the moxen still producing mana), pyro/reb, and maybe fire/ice.

It also came to mind in playing blood moon but the problem I see with blood moon is the simple fact that the lands are still being able to produce mana. And alot of type 1 decks now-a-days are playing goblin welder, rebs/pyros. So it seems to me shutting the main source of mana off by keeping the lands tapped. Blood moon is very good aswell but with the 2-4 islands played in most decks that utilize blue they will still be adle to cast lets say a tezz, or something of that nature. But with BTB the lands are dead once they are used, AND not to mention BTB is blue so its pitchable to FOW misdirection, and commandeer. For example if i am playing BTB in a UB control deck i will be playing draw spells (thirst, fact, and maybe gifts), and my opponent will loose the game if hes just sitting there building up mana before he does anything. By that time I should have control and have a well sculpted hand to win the game.

[Diakonov]

I think you have to consider what other cards are seeing play right now for 2U.  Look at Intuition, Thirst for Knowledge, Meditate, Tinker, etc.  By comparison, B2B is relatively weak.  Similar to (but worse than) Null Rod, it's usually more of an annoyance used to buy time as opposed to a game-controlling effect, except as nineisnoone said, you might sometimes take them by surprise midgame.  Most decks would be able to get out from under it, usually by fetching.

Magus of the Moon is more interesting because fetches no longer save you, unless the fetch was already on the table.  Yes, they can still use red as colorless, which is part of the reason Magus isn't perfect either, but it's a bit more likely they will be in a situation where they simply do not have any on-color mana for a while.  Plus, he swings for 2 to boot.  Even Magus is usually considered more of a "speed bump," though, so you need to try to end the game fast, which is pretty easy to do with today's card pool.

[zeus-online]

Honestly, i'd either run crucible/wasteland or magus of the moon instead (both accompanied by Gorilla shaman)...If you really want to deny mana, attack it from every angle. Tinker/Titan is also a good way to blow shit lands up!

Workshop decks have "improved" vintage mana-bases almost too much for B2B to be playable (i mean, by pressuring everyone to play more basics and fetchs)

/Zeus