Drain Tendrils - Discussion

[gamegeek2]

While TPS is on the decline, this deck keeps cropping up. Most recently, it placed second in the hands of Colin Wu at the Vintage Championships.

--- Colin Wu, 2nd Vintage Champs 2009 ---
Ancestral Recall
Time Walk
Demonic Tutor
Mystical Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Tinker
Yawgmoth’s Will
Fact or Fiction
Gifts Ungiven
Brainstorm
Ponder
Merchant Scroll
Intuition
Sensei’s Divining Top

Rebuild
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
Chain of Vapor
Dark Blast

Tendrils of Agony
Empty the Warrens
4 Dark Confidant
Platinum Angel

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Pyroblast

10 Solomoxen/Petal/Mana Crypt+Vault
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Fire/Ice
2 Repeal
2 Duress

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38627.msg537710#msg537710 - His tourney report and most recent list can be found here

--- DT by wiley ---
    2  Polluted Delta
    3  Flooded Strand
    4  Underground Sea
    4  Island
    1  Tolarian Academy

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
    1 Necropotence
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Demonic Tutor
    4  Dark Ritual
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Mind's Desire
    2  Deep Analysis
    1  Merchant Scroll
    1 Time Walk
    1 Gifts Ungiven
    4 Intuition
    1 Rebuild
    4 Accumulated Knowledge
    4 Mana Drain
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    4 Force of Will
    1 Fact or Fiction
    1 Chain of Vapor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Island
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Echoing Truth

Wiley's is a more traditional list of DT.

--- DT by gamegeek2 ---

--- Mana ---
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal

--- Control/Protection ---
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection

--- Draw/Tutor
3 Dark Confidant
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall

--- Major Engines ---
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Memory Jar
1 Mind's Desire

--- Win ---
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Darksteel Colossus/Inkwell Leviathan

--- Utility ---
2 Rebuild
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Fire//Ice
1 Time Walk

--- Sideboard ---
3 Pyroclasm
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rack and Ruin
4 Open Slots

On the Deck Itself

Drain Tendrils was created, tuned and put through the gauntlet by Cody Vinci as a mana drain based control deck that used tendrils of agony as its win condition.  The deck has Won multiple tournaments and propelled many pilots into the top 8 of the last couple of years.  The power of this deck is that it is almost completely a control deck that simply explodes when it needs to.

Discuss

[ristoman]

I've picked up this deck some time ago and it's good to see it performing well among all the Tez/Vault followers.

My main question is the Intu/AK engine VS Dark Confidant... I run the first because I don't own any DConf, and it seems to me like in the short term it is a much better play... I believe it was Wu in Worlds who managed to survive a double DConf at 4 life just by drawing low cost stuff. That's a bit too risky for my tastes.

Intuition for AK -> AK -> Will -> AK is too insane not to run. Is beating for 2 really that big of a deal?

[wiley]

There are multiple problems with the intu->ak engine.
Foremost is the cost.  It costs 4UU to draw 3 cards if you don't already have an ak in the yard.  This is one of the biggest turn offs to other people for that engine as that is less efficient than a concentrate (excepting the speed).
Another problem is that it is susceptible to graveyard hate, so that if someone has a crypt online then you are cut off from that draw potential.
Another important problem is the chance for the mirror match.  In this aks can become a two edged sword, making the person who sandbags an ak the longest have the clear advantage.

It does have some huge potential though, allowing you to easily draw 7 cards off 4UUU, which is actually pretty good.  It gives you extra pseudo ancestrals when you yawg will.  It has great synergy with the best unrestricted blue tutor and isn't very color intensive.

In my deck above, if I don't already have an ak in hand the first (draw finding) intuition goes for 1 ak, 2 da.  This means I get some decent card advantage no matter what and the next intuition needs to be countered.  I'd like to run dc as well in that list, but I found bombier cards like necro, bargain and mind's desire to perform better overall.  DC lowers your required storm count by 2 every time he hits, which in addition to drawing you extra cards can often mean he is speeding up your clock by a full turn, sometimes more.  He also doesn't die to graveyard hate, which is pretty nice.

I've put this deck down for a little over a month now to pursue other archetypes, but I liked the way it performed while I piloted it.  My only gripe was that tez still got those first turn key/vault wins every now and again, which is something that I can't stand losing to when I play blue.

[zeus-online]

Foremost is the cost.  It costs 4UU to draw 3 cards if you don't already have an ak in the yard.

Just a minor corrections:  .
I much prefer Deep analysis instead of AK, first off it requires less deck space (3 DA's are enough)...It's harder to stop...And the main selling point: I'd much rather have a single DA then a single AK. Running both is probably better, but requires waaay too much deck space. The old hulk smash engine is pretty good against combo and control, but is seriosly lacking against fish and other aggro/control decks. (Shops are quite beatable aswell)

Atleast that's how i feel about the intuition engine.

[ristoman]

The way I normally play Intuition -> AK is over the span of two turns, that is EOT Intu, play my turn, pass, EOT AK. With Crypt or Vault you might be able to cast it on your turn while leaving UU open. You should have Drain mana open at all times anyways, so when in doubt I'll wait for the next EOT. Drain Tendrils isn't TPS, and in fact I've found that more often than not you are better off erring in favor of slowplaying rather than try to step on the gas. This deck looks for openings, with which you can generate momentum and swing the game in your favor. It claws its way through the game, draws more and more until one turn leads into the other with a win. At least that's the overall approach I've developed. I believe that is the hardest aspect of this deck, knowing when the light turns green and you can go a little bit crazy in order to go completely crazy next turn.

What Wiley says is true, but it's situational. The same way AK dies to graveyard hate, DConf dies to any type of creature removal, first and foremost Darkblast which is seeing more and more play nowadays, furthermore that same Darkblast could keep coming back every time a new DConf comes into play. If I see an opening I'd rather capitalize on it and draw 3 (possibly 7 total) now than lay a 2/1 that'll give me a card next turn (if it survives). That's a pretty big tempo wager for this deck. As far as the mirror goes, I don't think many people still play AK overall, at least as far as the major archetypes are concerned. Last I remember it was Oath that used that... Is that still the case? Haven't played much Oath lately. Do people side a lone AK just in case? Either way, AK is not necessary to win–a few moxes and a Rebuild will be more than enough to swing the game in your favor. Many a times I've just Intuitioned for three tutors, or Lotus, Petal, and Crypt/Ritual/Jet.

Another small correction, when DC hits, whether you play Tendrils or ETW, it is lowering your Storm count by 1, not 2. I'm not sure if you're counting the extra card you draw as an extra spell to up your Storm.

I've been on the fence for DA for a long time, more than anything because it's sorcery speed. I'd much rather play that in Oath, because DT is so defensive in nature and wants to keep as much mana available during your opponent's turn as possible. When I have a lone AK, more often than not it'll draw me 4 after taking out the other 3.

[conboy31]

Is beating for 2 really that big of a deal?

Obviously beating for 2 is not the reason to run bob, but to address its relevance, it has been significant for me.  Having to tendrils someone who has fetched 3 times, forced once, and been hit by bob twice takes little planning or effort as 5 storm and tendrils comes fairly easy.

[Phele]

www.pickitisbn:1251723330[/url]'><img style='border: 0px none' src='https://www.citavi.com/softlink?linkid=findit' title='Titel anhand dieser ISBN in Citavi-Projekt übernehmen'/></A>]
 Is beating for 2 really that big of a deal?

Obviously beating for 2 is not the reason to run bob, but to address its relevance, it has been significant for me.  Having to tendrils someone who has fetched 3 times, forced once, and been hit by bob twice takes little planning or effort as 5 storm and tendrils comes fairly easy.

Thats exatly how it is. Minor storm kills are very easily get together and are especially strong in the Drain mirror, where everone is running costy bombs like Tez together with Confidants in the moment. In that case every Tutor in the midgame becomes a must counter for them as you could hold back a few moxen or whatever and just get Tendrils.

After playing Tez now for a while I always missed Tendrils as kill option that is much harder to hate out. And if you only rely on the Tendrils kill you even have more slots open for more draw/disruption/solutions, but I think that Vault-Key is too strong to miss. So I play an UB Drain Tendrils list in the moment which uses Vault-Key as the backup combo. This is the list:

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Repeal
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyls Recall
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

4 Dark Confidant
2 Duress
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoths Will
1 Tendrils of Agony

2 Senseis Divining Top
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

4 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Tolarian Acadamy

Board:

2 Sower of Temptation
2 Old Man of the Sea
1 Hurkyls Recall
1 Rebuild
2 Yxlid Jailer
2 Extirpate
1 Duress
1 Darkblast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Trinisphere

I just present this to give strict UB Drain Tendrils as an option to discuss here. Sure: Red offers strong options, but I think that UB offers enough alternatives. They might be not that powerful but the solid manabase of UB is a big advantage. Its so nice when you can just fetch on Islands against manadenial decks as your solutions against Fish (Sower/Old Man) and Workshops (Hurykls/Rebuild/Sower/Needle) are just blue. So you just have to fetch for the Underground Seas when you want to go for Confidants (which is very stron in both matchups) or for some broken moves (Demonic/Will/Tendrils).

From Red I miss the most: REB, Pyroclasm and Ingot Chewer. There is no equivalent for REB, but the mix of Duress and Extirpate is at least a solid basis to win the Control and Combo matchup. Instead of Pyroclasm you could run Infest/Massacre but as described, I like it to not fetch on Underground Seas in these matchups. In our meta the actual dominating aggro-control-decks are Noble Fish and GW Beats. Against both Sower and Old Man are pretty strong. I opted for Old Man instead of Threads as he also gets Mindcensor/Trygon/Cold-Eyed and all the Goblins (we always have one or two Goblin players around), but doesnt get Tarmo. Overal Old Man seems to be more flexible. Pyroclasm would be stonger in these matchups but together with Sphinx instead of Inky I think you can handle all these matchups. Ingot Chewer is a great card and I played it successfully in my UBR Nights Whisper Tez build. But I dont like Chewers together with Confidants, This means to much life loss and I wouldnt like to board out Confidants against Workshops as they often win these matchups alone. Hurkyls are less flexible thant Chewer but more synergystic with your Tendrils Kill and still leave you with a solid manabase.

And the maindeck already seem to be well prepared for every threat. I run four bounce options for annoying tools like Null Rod, Ehersworn, Chalice ... You could easily run a single Darkblast main, but I like these configuaration as all the bounce spells offer you the option to dig very deep with Top as well and are great storm enabler. Overall I think UB is still a strong option and I would to see it discussed here as well.

Cards that could be added maindeck:

Vendillion Clique
Library of Alexandria
Ponder

Cards that could be added in the sideboard:

Echoing Truth
Tormods Crypt
Sundering Titan
Massacre

[gamegeek2]

Vault/Key looks nice, but I'd rather see utility cards in those slots. That's a major bonus of red - it gives you excellent utility like Fire//Ice, Pyroclasm, REBs, and Rack and Ruin.

[gamegeek2]

Well, looks like they decided it's time Storm got a good old fashioned nerfing. Check out Mindbreak Trap to see why. It can certainly be played around, though, and I don't expect a ton of them.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

to: Phele

A VERY strong card that red gives you is empty the warrens. Empty the warrens can single handedly beat fish and stax paired up with some good bounce spells in the deck (ex. repeal, chain, hurkyls, rebuild). Not only does it do well vs stax and fish but if you get it out early in the drain mirror its hard for them to answer where as nopt many ppl play etruth anymore. Maybe im just an ETW whore i just love the card and think its underrated by many

[hitman]

Phele - Your deck looks really good.  I think it's important to run two Tops if you're running Confidants.  No matter what the average converted mana cost of your deck is, sometimes you just reveal an expensive card which costs you life and corners you into plays you wouldn't otherwise want to make.  My only question is why the two Repeals?  On first sight, I would cut the Repeals for a Rebuild and Ponder.  I'd love to add a Misdirection but don't know what to cut.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Phele - Your deck looks really good.  I think it's important to run two Tops if you're running Confidants.  No matter what the average converted mana cost of your deck is, sometimes you just reveal an expensive card which costs you life and corners you into plays you wouldn't otherwise want to make.  My only question is why the two Repeals?  On first sight, I would cut the Repeals for a Rebuild and Ponder.  I'd love to add a Misdirection but don't know what to cut.

Repeal is actually quite good--it not only helps address problem permanents but can also repeal your own confidant if life loss becomes an issue or once you have vault+key in play.  It also builds storm, cycles, or gains you tempo--even Repealing an opposing Confidant or Tarmogoyf is usually a strong play.

[Phele]

Phele - Your deck looks really good.  I think it's important to run two Tops if you're running Confidants.  No matter what the average converted mana cost of your deck is, sometimes you just reveal an expensive card which costs you life and corners you into plays you wouldn't otherwise want to make.  My only question is why the two Repeals?  On first sight, I would cut the Repeals for a Rebuild and Ponder.  I'd love to add a Misdirection but don't know what to cut.

Repeal is actually quite good--it not only helps address problem permanents but can also repeal your own confidant if life loss becomes an issue or once you have vault+key in play.  It also builds storm, cycles, or gains you tempo--even Repealing an opposing Confidant or Tarmogoyf is usually a strong play.

Not much to add but to underline the flexibility of Repeal. It has great synergies with Top and together with the other bounces leaves you much less vulnerable to single permanents like Null Rod. It also helps all of your combo win conditions as it removes hindering permanents for Vault-Key and generates Storm as well.

@ hitman: I would love to add a Misdirection main as well, but didn't find space yet. Same counts for Library, Clique and Ponder. Maybe I cut one Confidant for one of them as many of the successful UBR Tez lists did recently. Even though I love a first turn Confidant and really like its synergies with Tendrils. And I totally agree, that two Tops are important. For the Condfidant life loss but also for their flexibility. I always thought that that Top is more flexible than Ponder for example and played the second one over Ponder all the time, even though Ponder is blue, isn't vulnerable to Null Rod and diggs deeper on its own. I think it is a matter of personal preference.

I also would like to add two Mystic Remoras in the sideboard, but am still not sure what to cut for it. I will try out the list further and give you an update as soon as I made some major variations.

@Osh: Yes, Empty the Warrens is another red tool I would love to add. Still, I am not really convinced, that adding a third colour is worth weakening the manabase. But the two red cards I miss the most are Pyroclasm and Ingot Chewer.

But I leave this question to all of you: Is red neccessary? Especially with Tendrils as the major combo kill.

[personalbackfire]

But I leave this question to all of you: Is red neccessary? Especially with Tendrils as the major combo kill.

Well the answer to your question is no red is not necessary at all, especially since your list has vault/key and is essential Tezzeret without the Tezz and plus a tendrils.  In a more dedicated list, one without the vault/key I think that Empty helps because there are situations where your doing things but not getting to 10 storm, and Etw is just a better plan to drop for a few tokens and swing. Since your running Vault/key, in those situations it will most likely be easier just to drop Vault/Key and win.

In terms of your mana base adding Red really would not hurt at all. To add red I would suggest cutting a fetch and an Underground for 2 Volcs. I have run that mana base in the past to success, sometimes with a maindeck swamp, sometimes with the 4th island, it would depend on if you think swamp is necessary.

I think the reason to run red is REB out of the sb because in my opinion it is the best sb card for the mirror match. Since you are running a Tendrils, chewer becomes less of a reason to run red because you can just add some mass bounce, and go that route against Shops.

[InfectedMushroom]

Red gives you some of the best and most versatile SB options. I personally love the fact that if needed, I can Gifts for REB, Pyro, Mana Drain and FoW to win a counter war. Pyroclasm is nice too against quite a few decks.

ETW really is a great play and lets you race fish and play the permanent advantage game against Stax.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I raise the question...why run ingot chewer and pyroclasm when you can just run empty the warrens and some bouncers (hurks, rebuild, repeal, etc) vs the same decks chewer and pyroclasm are there for and just win anyway with alot of little goblins smashing face? Bc chewer and pyroclasm are there for stax and fish, while ETW man-handles both of those decks. So in my opinion YES its deffinately worth running red while slightly weakening the mana base. Not to mention if you run a confidant out there early hitting mana drops shouldnt be a problem, and needle on the board seems awsome vs wastes aswell. Just some food for thought!!!

[Cole]

Like you said, there are no replacements for REBs/Pyroblasts which are nuts in the Drain mirror.  That is imo, the biggest reason for going into Red.  Everything else is just a nice bonus (Pyroclasm, EtW).  I wouldn't run Chewey alongside Bobs and FoWs.  The deck has enough bounce for lock pieces. 

However, I do want actual artifact kill against enemy vault-key because they can assemble it pretty easily before you go off and if you bounce their board they can likely replay it that same turn.  Sorcery speed chewer doesn't cut it there.  Rack and Ruin and Ancient Grudge are better options. 

[T1scrub]

(first of all : sry for my bad english.)

Sry , but i think you guys are wrong .

When you play DT U/B/X the third colour is ONLY for your matchups Staxx and Fish , and 100% irrelevant for the draincontrol matchup .
It`s about how to handle those 2 matchups , and its about the SB slots you "waste" .
Usually , when you play red you have the options ETW/reb/pyroclasm/Chewer and R&R .  When you play green you have Trygons (which are also nice vs Remora) and goyfs .But not one of those cards is really usefully in the draincontrol mirror .

the key to win this is always SKILL , and nothing else .

to improve your chances in the mirror you have only Extripate and Darkblast (when he plays Confi) . All other cards might be nice , but in the end they decide nothing.

mfg
scrubby , playing DT for years (sccesfully)


ps : loa can win this matchup

[gamegeek2]

REBs do help, but there's not a ton of room for them. It's true that it's largely for Stax and Fish. R&R and Pyroclasm are blowouts against those matchups. Warrens is however an excellent win condition.

[Bon Hiver]

In traditional U/B decks (or even with  for sweet board options and Warrens) what is the reason for running Dark Ritual, or not?

I've started running U/B with Intuition/AK/DA and have strongly considered dropping AK entirely for Deep Analysis as a more robust card draw engine. However, the list I started testing with is the one presented here as Wiley's list. What is the purpose of Dark Ritual in the deck? The main complaint I have about the deck is drawing too much accel/bad answers. While it is clear that Confidant is for the most part becoming the optimal draw engine I still find Deep Analysis to be incredibly powerful (especially in the mirror when it simply provides more cards more quickly to allow you to maintain control). Dark Ritual has occasionally been good when it becomes time to turn on the gas, and accel is needed and also as an interesting Intuition target... but is it really beneficial?

In Confidant lists, I can see ritual actually serving a far more powerful game plan but even then i do not think it is optimal. Ritual (in both lists) does in some sense help have UU open for Drain, and allows for random broken wins. I'd also assume it would allow for easy first turn Confidants quite commonly, but I don't see that play line as all that uncommon as is with moxen etc. or all that powerful (thus Rit not being run in Confidant lists?). So my ultimate question is this, with Rit seeming to be actually underpowered in Intuition based builds (because I find that 9/10 times the reason I chose Intuition was the more robust draw engine, and thus drawing accel is rarely ideal) and not being ran in Confidant... to what end do you guys use it? And if you don't, what have you replaced it with?