Can the b and r help a junk meta?

[mr.grim]

So if you have been playing vintage in the last few months im sure you have noticed a junktastic meta. Most top 8s look like this......
tezz/vault
tezz/vault
tezz/vault
dredge
oath
tezz/vault
tps
ant
Everyone who i play with does nothing but bitch about tezz/vault. IMO vault should be changed back to how it was or banned. Tho there are other options like resticiting mana drain, the most unstable mana ramp in the game.If drain were to become a one of then that leaves shop and dark rit as the best mana ramp in the game.So do they need to be restricted as well? The anwser is no ..... Just get time valut out of the meta.Drains and rits and shops were all fine befor time vault. Let be honest just like flash and dredge Tezz/key/vault is a talentless broken combo.Its really sad that not only do we have tezz telling time decks, but every other deck can toss the trio of time in as well.Tezz with rit i mean tps(tezz perfect storm) ,oath with tezz,tezz goes FISHing,so on and so on. Again this is just my opinion. So whats your opinions on how to fix the vintage meta?

[VideoGameBoy]

I think if the power level of un-errata'd Vault was too high, then you'd see people start playing Transmute Artifact to have Tinkers 2~5, and people maindecking Null Rod due to the dearth of Vault combo.  At that point, something would have to be done.

The fact that it is a two-card combo - and usually with another restricted card - means it's like any other two card "autowin" combo where one of the cards by itself does not do a whole heck of a lot (like Stifle/Illusionary Mask + Phyrexian Dreadnought).  Time Vault by itself is not a terribly useful card, unless you are playing something like Mystic Remora - in which it has a little more added synergy.

[Juggernaut GO]

I maindecked 3 null rod in stax specifically for the tezz matchup at the last tmd open.  Ad still lost the 2 matches I was paired against without much of a struggle.

The synergy with the 2 card key/vault combo  and how friggin easy it is to put together is just a little obnoxious.  I watched a fish player have the game all but over only for his opponent to topdeck voltaic key on his last turn with a time vault in play.

Flame fusiladde/vault in its day was extremely busted, but having the 2 card combo, as well as tezz in the same deck is just a little bit broken.

[EnialisLiadon]

If Time Vault were either banned or errata'd, I'm sure a lot of Tezzeret would still be played--they would just play Painter/Grindstone.

I think we're always going to have 4Force4Drain20BrokenCards.dec that will just counter spells and draw a billion cards while only having 2-4 slots dedicated to actually killing someone.

I don't really think the meta needs fixing.  Time Vault being prevalent makes Null Rod great, which makes budget hate decks even more viable.  My friend who normally does not play vintage is coming with me to a tournament because he can throw 4 Chalice of the Void and 4 Null Rod into his legacy goblin deck and have a shot against a great deal of the meta.  I think a lot more decks are viable than people give them credit for.

[Purple Hat]

I think if the power level of un-errata'd Vault was too high, then you'd see people start playing Transmute Artifact to have Tinkers 2~5, and people maindecking Null Rod due to the dearth of Vault combo.  At that point, something would have to be done.

The fact that it is a two-card combo - and usually with another restricted card - means it's like any other two card "autowin" combo where one of the cards by itself does not do a whole heck of a lot (like Stifle/Illusionary Mask + Phyrexian Dreadnought).  Time Vault by itself is not a terribly useful card, unless you are playing something like Mystic Remora - in which it has a little more added synergy.

Dearth doesn't mean that.  It means the opposite of that, in fact.

The timevault combo is actually a 2 card combo where BOTH the cards don't do very much.  Key is pretty useless in blue decks.  Tezz is more useful but he costs 5 mana and at least 1 turn so he's not overwhelming on the scale of things in vintage

[Anusien]

Time Vault is unlikely to be banned, and it won't be errata'ed.  They'd restrict some other card instead.

4-5 different decks in a single T8 seems fine.  I don't see the concern.

[personalbackfire]

So if you have been playing vintage in the last few months im sure you have noticed a junktastic meta. Most top 8s look like this......
tezz/vault
tezz/vault
tezz/vault
dredge
oath
tezz/vault
tps
ant

I dont think that this is accurate of most top 8s. I went through the first half of the events on the first page of morphling.de and here was what top 8ed.
Tezz:4
Bomberman:1
Ichorid: x5
Fish:8
Slaver: 1
Landstill: 1
Shaymora: 2
Bob/goyf aggro control: 1
TPS:2
Drain Tendrils:2
Bob and drains: 2
Bob and rituals:2
Painter:2
Oath: 1
Stax:1
ANT:1
Shop aggro:1
Other:3

Fish was a pretty broad catagory but it is clear that there are alot of viable decks to play.

[jaeppel]

if tezz were truly to become the undeniably 'perfect deck,' the meta would find the ultimate hate deck.  if i were expecting 50% of the top eight to be force/drain/tezz/vault i would probably go for red.hate.dec, something with 8 blasts, artifact hate, moonmagus, burn, rods, chalices, etc.  build the entire deck around hating one archetype: tear that one deck apart and loose to lots of other stuff.  a bunch of people show up to a big tourney with decks/boards finetuned just to slay tezz, then the next big tourney everybody playing last seasons hate.dec loose to the guys playing next.big.thing.dec, etc, etc

i dont think i made my point very well there... its just that i dont really think that tezz/vault/key pose any greater danger than any other number of two card combos, and every deck, no matter how broken, has one archetype that it just bends over for.  once upon a time time vault was beyond busted.  it was banned back in the day because disenchant/crumble/shatter were pretty much the only answers.  nowadays you could build an entire stack of 60 that do nothing but hate vault without using a single one of those cards.  time vault is pretty busted, but not really more than many other old restricted cards.  ancestral recall is much better than vault, yet i would never hear people clamouring to ban it, even though every (good) deck with access to U since 1993 has run it.

[Oath of Happy]

I personaly love the rebirth of Time Vault combo.  I think that people are having problems accepting it because it just magically apeared one day after being dormant for so long.  Banning or changing it for power level would be like banning Yawgmoth's Will or Gifts Ungiven because they are too strong.  Back in 2004-2005ish control slaver was dominating every top 8.  Every big tourney was won by CS, and 5 or 6 of the other top 8 spots were CS.  And guess what...None of the cards that were used in CS have ever been restricted, people just adapted and learned how to beat the deck over time.  If Time Vault is gone people will replace it with the next best win condition, like Painter.  Painter, is more expensive in mana, but the cards are more usefull in isolation anyway, and neither painter nor Grindstone are restricted.

The only thing that worries me is that Wizards has shown a tendency to "shake things up" every June.  Restrict Gifts, unrestrict Gush.  A year later, Restrict Blue, re-errata Vault.  I really hope they dont keep doing this, and I specifically hope that when June rolls around they don't say "OK, Time Vault ran its course, lets shake things up and re-errata it, and unrestrict/errata/print some other stupid card for a year."  Axing Time Vault would really screw over the people that bought a Time Vault after it rose in price, only for it to become another Gauntlet of Might type card.  If Vault decks are too powerful, restrict something like Thirst for Knowledge that can be replaced by something that isn't as powerful.

On one last note, in the recent article that explained the June 2008 restrictions I noticed a part where they talked about the 4 pillars: Workshop, Rit, Bazaar, and Force, and how these cards are more powerful than cards on the resticted list, but define archtypes and therefore are untouchable.  Putting Force up there instead of Drain just shows how little they know about our format.  There is no such thing as a "Force of Will deck."  Decks arent built around abusing Force, they just use it, and if they havent noticed, Force is used in dark ritual decks like TPS, Bazaar decks, like Dragon, and hell, even in a few blue Workshop decks.  So, are they saying that Fish, and Tezzeret are the same archetype since they use 4 Force of Will?  It's Mana Drain that defines the Archetype of control, and it bothers me that they dont consider it untouchable.  If they ever restrict Mana Drain, I'm out of Magic, and will not bother checking the resticted list now and then to see if its back.  I will be done. Gone, so long, goodbye.  I'm sure a lot of people will do the same.  Wizards have done enough to ruin vintage in the past 3 years already so hopefully they've had their fun and can leave us alone now.

[tito del monte]

On one last note, in the recent article that explained the June 2008 restrictions I noticed a part where they talked about the 4 pillars: Workshop, Rit, Bazaar, and Force, and how these cards are more powerful than cards on the resticted list, but define archtypes and therefore are untouchable.  Putting Force up there instead of Drain just shows how little they know about our format.  There is no such thing as a "Force of Will deck."  Decks arent built around abusing Force, they just use it, and if they havent noticed, Force is used in dark ritual decks like TPS, Bazaar decks, like Dragon, and hell, even in a few blue Workshop decks.  So, are they saying that Fish, and Tezzeret are the same archetype since they use 4 Force of Will?  It's Mana Drain that defines the Archetype of control, and it bothers me that they dont consider it untouchable.  If they ever restrict Mana Drain, I'm out of Magic, and will not bother checking the resticted list now and then to see if its back.  I will be done. Gone, so long, goodbye.  I'm sure a lot of people will do the same.  Wizards have done enough to ruin vintage in the past 3 years already so hopefully they've had their fun and can leave us alone now.

Glad someone else spotted this - that was my exact same reaction - and it made me feel a bit queasy and worried about drain. There's even a bit where he says something along the lines of 'blue deck using force of will and the best engine, Mana Drain FOR NOW' - something like that (i'll edit in quote later) - anyway, it was chilling.

Leave the metagame alone for a while Wizards - if you're going to do anything to the banned/restricted list, clean it up, take the remaining jank off it and prove to the community that you're good custodians of the format.

EDIT: Here's that quote from the article:

Force of Will decks usually build around other unrestricted blue cards; Mana Drain currently fills that role,

Ominous.... :/

[Purple Hat]

so...they restricted brainstorm, gush, scroll, ponder and flash to reign in force of will decks?

[VideoGameBoy]

The timevault combo is actually a 2 card combo where BOTH the cards don't do very much.  Key is pretty useless in blue decks.  Tezz is more useful but he costs 5 mana and at least 1 turn so he's not overwhelming on the scale of things in vintage

Key is actually pretty decent on its own - it is useful with all targetable artifact creatures for providing combat tricks, and goes with absolutely all artifacts (including itself) that have tap activated abilities (Sol Ring, Divining Top, etc.).  Key isn't a house, but it definitely meshes better than Vault, as in it isn't completely useless without other direct support cards.

Yeah, dearth was the wrong word.  I think the word I was looking for is extant.

Glad someone else spotted this - that was my exact same reaction - and it made me feel a bit queasy and worried about drain. There's even a bit where he says something along the lines of 'blue deck using force of will and the best engine, Mana Drain FOR NOW' - something like that (i'll edit in quote later) - anyway, it was chilling.

You obviously missed their point, which is actually a really good one.

To make Wizards point more obviously, restricting Force would be dumb because then combo would take over, and rampant first turn kills would make the format completely boring.

T1 has cards that there simply aren't enough other cards that do anything nearly the same for the same ridiculously low cost or ease of playing.

Examples are Force of Will, which has Foil,  and Pact of Negation as its closest approximates, which are at once unplayable and/or ridiculously narrow.
Workshop has Ancient Tomb.
Bazaar is simply matchless - I guess the closest analogs would be Careful Study, Breakthrough, Attunement, and many other things that aren't free.
Ritual has Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, and Culling the Weak.

These analogs are strictly inferior.

The thing with Mana Drain is that it is a UU counter that provides slight mana acceleration, usually a drop or two at a time unless you get somebody who walks right into it.
If drain were restricted, it's not like there wouldn't be 3 other UU or 1U counters (like Counterspell, Mana Leak, and *insert counter here*) that could be dropped right into the open slots.  Combo/Control deckbuilders would just have to bring the curve of their decks down to accommodate for reduced mana acceleration.

That said, Drain doesn't appear broken enough yet to warrant restriction, and it is ostensibly an interactive/reactive card that provides situational mana acceleration, of which nothing analogous currently populate the B/R list.

That said, anybody who bemoans restrictions and threatens to leave the game - you are free to play whatever cards you want casually.  If you are into the sanctioned tournament scene, then you should be happy that your format isn't allowed to stagnate.  For every person who bemoans restrictions, there is another who thinks it is exciting because it enforces a complete remapping of the meta.

[BruiZar]

Play extract and stop whining

This is on the borderline for both flaming and lack of content.  -Eastman 

[Godder]

To add to that, B&R discussion is now restricted to the Advanced Vintage Forum.

Locked.