[Budget] Suicide Black 2k9

[Bone]

Since I can't necro threads here is the link to the thread posted by Smmenen.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36985.0

Deck:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Phyrexian Negator

4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Thoughtseize
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Bitterblossom
1 Necropotence
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Lotus Petal
4 Null Rod

1 Strip Mine
15 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Extirpate
4 Spinning Darkness
4 Gate to Phyrexia
4 Leyline of the Void

I have some questions about this deck:

1) Will adding 3xPolluted Delta, 3xBloodstained Mire, -6xSwamp improve this deck?

2) Will 1-2 Crucible of Worlds work in this deck? (1xStrip Mine, 4xWasteland)

3) Would 4xLeyline of the Void, 4xIll-Gotten Gains work in this deck? Discard our hands, I get 3 cards back from the yard

4) The Necropotence spot. Should I go for 7 cards in hand each turn, or more? Is this an autoinclude in this deck?

[Bone]

(sorry for doubleposting)

I found the list that uncluded Ill-Gotten Gains and Leyline of the Void MD.

Deck:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Hypnotic Specter

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Duress
4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor

3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
14 Swamp

Would like to add this sideboard:
4 Yixlid Jailer
4 Diabolic Edict
3 Engineered Plague
4 Spinning Darkness

Would be very good matchup against:
Ichorid, Goblins, Fish and other aggro stuff, Painter, other decks that rely on artifacts

Not so sure about this matchup:
Oath... if not getting an edict at the right time I'm screwed
Tinker into DC/Inkvell Leviathan...if not getting an edict at the right time I'm screwed

[overseer1234]

Not so sure about this matchup:
Oath... if not getting an edict at the right time I'm screwed
Tinker into DC/Inkvell Leviathan...if not getting an edict at the right time I'm screwed

Or you could just storm combo with will and win right there and them (if they don't counter...)



Ive been playing suicide black 2k9 but I'm splashing green a.t.m. for goyf in the main (kicking blossom) and playing deed in the sideboard (kicking gate to phyrexia obviously since it's no good without B-Blossom)

Also I've kicked 9 swamps for 3 bayou and 6 fetch (3-3 split between delta and mire). So far I'm liking the result's, and my manabase is pretty stable.

Playing fetch in a mono black deck is just plain useless... you won't get to notice anything from the thinning until very late in the game (where you con't get playing suicide and wel...), and the lifeloss WILL kill you in this deck, also not being able to draw that 1 card off necropotence, of being 1 life to low to efectively play V-Tutor cost's a lot of games considering the lifeloss from confidant, B-blossom AND Thoughtseize.

This all go's for the standard 2k9 list, (since your list doesn't play thoughtseize and stuf).

About IGGY, I don't really know if it would work... maybe in a more combo like shell with C-rituals and such (in this case I could play fetch because of Thresh) where you could just loop IGG, D-Ritual, C-ritual and D-Tutor, but then again, Y-Will is just plain better...

As for you necropotence question, it's not an auto-include, in the standaard list I hated it because of B-Blossom, but now with goyf I kind of like him (2 B-blossom's while necro-ing isn't to hot... goyf on the other hand...). And for how many cards I draw of it: I just draw so my hand contains 7 cards EOT+1 or 2 extra If I'm holding 2-3 lands (discard the lands, and still making sure you have your next landdrop while drawing more cards= win-win)

Also IGG+necropotence does have it's drawback's since you RFG the cards you discard from IGG because of the necropotence...
Just thought I should mention it.

EDIT: My decklist for those that are interested:
Main deck:
4x     Chalice of the Void    
4x    Null Rod    
1x    Lotus Petal

4x    Dark Confidant
3x    Phyrexian Negator
4x    Tarmogoyf    Creature
   
1x    Necropotence    

4x    Dark Ritual
1x    Demonic Consultation
2x    Diabolic Edict    
1x    Vampiric Tutor

3x    Bayou 
3x    Bloodstained Mire
3x    Polluted Delta
1x    Strip Mine   
6x    Swamp
4x    Wasteland

1x    Demonic Tutor
4x    Duress    
1x    Tendrils of Agony    
4x    Thoughtseize    
1x    Yawgmoth’s Will

Sideboard

4x    Leyline of the Void    
4x    Pernicious Deed    
3x    Extirpate/Yixlid Jailer
4x    Spinning Darkness

Not very revolutionary, but it's always better to see the list other than just mentioning the modifications.

[Bone]

Thanks mate

Like your list, it's pretty close to Smmenen's just with goyfs instead of bitterblossom and different sb

Did a card count today and found that I have all cards for the second list except 1 negator, leves me with this:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Phyrexian Negator
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade

4 Dark Ritual

4 Duress

1 Yawgmoth's Will (instead of the last negator)

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ill-Gotten Gains

4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds

1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor

3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
14 Swamps

Sideboard:
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Yixlid Jailer
4 Diabolic Edict
3 Engineered Plague
4 Spinning Darkness

Dark Confidant being the only card in this deck that uses life as a resource to draw cards. Wouldn't it be pretty safe to add 6 fetches even tough they will cost me 1 life each? Just thinking about perhaps adding a splash in the SB. There are both green and white splash possible and both would give me some tech.

Possible change 1:
MD: -9 Swamps, +3 Bayou, +3 Bloodstained Mire, +3 Polluted Delta
SB: -3 Engineered Plague, -4 Spinning Darkness, +3 Pernicious Deed, +4 Seal of Primodium

Possible change 2:
MD: -9 Swamps, +3 Scrubland, +3 Bloodstained Mire, +3 Polluted Delta
SB: -3 Engineered Plague, -4 Spinning Darkness, +3 Vindicate, +4 Swords to Plowshares (Or +4 Seal of Cleansing)

Not sure what change would be best... if any. But I have all the cards so both changes are possible. Not sure what matchups that would improve (or be harder)  except that Oath will be better with enchantment hate (+4 Seal of Primodium(Cleansing)). Or perhaps I should just don't care splashing at all and hoping to not meet Oath?

What are this list's bad matchups? (Or Suicide Black's bad matchups in general) ?

[Roat17]

Actually in this list I would say it is very beneficial to run 4 fetches because you can return them with IGG.

I would actually remove Nantuko, and add another creature that discards.  This is because IGG is only great when you haev leyline out.  If you don't have leyline out, you'd like to be able to use it anyways.  A blue splash could be made for Dimir Cutpurse x3 and Ancestral + 1 bounce and it will still be very suicide feeling.

[Bone]

Actually in this list I would say it is very beneficial to run 4 fetches because you can return them with IGG.

Without splashing I don't think that would be a good idea. The only reason would be thinning the deck but that's very marginal and I can't see it make a difference. If returning land to hand for reuse I would choose Strip Mine or Wasteland, and those I can get from Crucible.

I would actually remove Nantuko, and add another creature that discards.  This is because IGG is only great when you haev leyline out.  If you don't have leyline out, you'd like to be able to use it anyways.  A blue splash could be made for Dimir Cutpurse x3 and Ancestral + 1 bounce and it will still be very suicide feeling.

I prefer Nantuko Shade over Dimir Cutpurse. He's cheaper, he's not blue and he can get big. I think I have enough distruption in this deck and don't need Cutpurse. Ancestral Recall would kinda ruin the budget tag. If I'm going to splash other colors that would be green or white. Sorry if I got defensive in this post, perhaps if testing out your suggestions I would like them, but for now I consider other changes before splashing blue.

[Roat17]

Not a problem, as long as you aren't just saying no.  You are backing up your response with a logical thought process.  Here's mine when thinking about adding fetches.  If you are playing IGG you might be playing it off a ritual early on.  If my opening hand is something like Leyline, Lotus, Ritual, Ritual/Lotus Petal/Spirit Guide/moxen, Swamp, Confidant, IGG, then I would almost 100% keep against an unknown opponent.  This shouldn't really be too uncommon of a scenario (That being getting an early IGG with Leyline).  Perhaps I don't have enough experience pilotting this particular deck type, but a similar hand would be kept IMO 9 times out of 10.  The only way I can see that hand getting better is if the swamp is a fetch in case 1 of the 3 cards you want to return is a land.

Now, that being said, I am also a firm believer in playing very little fetches except to fix colour screw/fight against waste.  Evaluate when it would be useful and go from there. 

Secondly, I mentioned the blue splash for Cutpurse because it fits the flavour of the deck.  I understand shade can get huge, but I really have never liked him.  If you are playing MD leyline I would encourage finding another way to abuse it rather than playing shade, but that's just my 2 cents.

[the boogie man]

3 negator, 4 goyf (in place of the shades)  Is a brutal amount of beats, and allows you to do other things on your turn, without having to waste your mana on shade,  who is otherwise 2 powered. Green would also give you a singleton lftl (more sb if you want, too) and a way to destroy permanents (seal of prim, pernicious deed, oxidize). you could even do something crazy like add 1 crop rotation and 1 bazaar. that would give you options like maze of ith sb, or another way to get strip early.

[reaperbong]

Anybody tried Bad Moon? I'm running the 4x Bitterblossom version and Bad Moon is the bomb to me. It's like a 5th Bitterblossom that instantly clones all other Faeries instead of waiting some turns, and with no life loss, and like a real nasty Time Walk for black aggro all rolled into one! I can't make up my mind though between 4x Bitterblossom - 1x Bad Moon, or 3x Bitterblossom - 2x Bad Moon. I also run 4x Phyrexian Negators, so might just drop 1 Negator for an extra Bad Moon. Thoughts? (full list forthcoming)

[nineisnoone]

Bad Moon just seems.... well, bad.  I wouldn't run it over a Bitterblossom or Negator at least.

[VorpalBunnyDuby]

Heres the new list i have together:

Maindeck (60):
3 seal of primordium
1 Demonic consultation
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
4 Null Rod
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
3 Thoughtsieze
3 Extirpate
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Sinkhole
3 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf

Lands (18):
3 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland


Sideboard (15):
1 Tombstalker
3 Krosan Grip
3 Snuff out
2 Oxidize
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Yixlid Jailer
Basic sui-shell with seals, tarmo and extirpate in the main. The board is kinda weird looking, when playing against drain type decks I found that sower of temptation was a pain to deal with, so games 2-3 i bring in the extra tombstalker and the snuff outs and take out the 4 bobs. This is also my plan against more aggro type decks, kinda turning it into a eva green legacy deck with power.
The decklist is untested at the moment, just something I have thrown together.

[reaperbong]

Bad Moon just seems.... well, bad.  I wouldn't run it over a Bitterblossom or Negator at least.

Well it seems to fit nicely instead of a 4th Negator I was running. So far it's worked good, anybody running 4x Bitterblossom perhaps give a 1-off Bad Moon a try you might be impressed.

Also I've been testing Hymn to Tourach in place of Thoughtsieze because I only have 4 and they are already decked. Don't underestimate this card along with Mind Twist! both can be devastating in ways Thoughtsieze/Duress cannot. Off a dark ritual- 3-4 cards discarded from hand is serious business.

[Bone]

I want to test this list (reply no#1) on my local 4th april tournament. The meta has ALOT of aggro (Goblins, Fish, Affinity, Merfolks and some stuff that includes Lightning Bolts). I'm pretty sure I should go -4 Phyrexian Negator in the main and put them in the sideboard. But what should I use instead?

+3 Engineered Plague, +1 Diabolic Edict is a possibility... but then I only have 10 creatures maindeck.

Is Sarcomancy/Carnophage a possibility? Any other MONOBLACK creature that can take negators place in the main?

[reaperbong]

I want to test this list (reply no#1) on my local 4th april tournament. The meta has ALOT of aggro (Goblins, Fish, Affinity, Merfolks and some stuff that includes Lightning Bolts). I'm pretty sure I should go -4 Phyrexian Negator in the main and put them in the sideboard. But what should I use instead?

+3 Engineered Plague, +1 Diabolic Edict is a possibility... but then I only have 10 creatures maindeck.

Is Sarcomancy/Carnophage a possibility? Any other MONOBLACK creature that can take negators place in the main?

Sarcomancy/Carnophage is a bad idea IMO. I'd beef up the disruption, add some Hymn to Tourach, Cabal Therapy or Mind Twist. Also 1 or 2 Bad Moons to speed up the clock on the Bitterblossoms (people seem to disagree with this approach but I have no idea why as no real reason has been given)

If you're still looking for big creatures against aggro though perhaps give ole Phyrexian Scuta a try? or throw in a Plague Sliver for the hell of it. Hypnotic Specter is also reliable but not exactly for creature combat...

[Bone]

I want to test this list (reply no#1) on my local 4th april tournament. The meta has ALOT of aggro (Goblins, Fish, Affinity, Merfolks and some stuff that includes Lightning Bolts). I'm pretty sure I should go -4 Phyrexian Negator in the main and put them in the sideboard. But what should I use instead?

+3 Engineered Plague, +1 Diabolic Edict is a possibility... but then I only have 10 creatures maindeck.

Is Sarcomancy/Carnophage a possibility? Any other MONOBLACK creature that can take negators place in the main?

Sarcomancy/Carnophage is a bad idea IMO. I'd beef up the disruption, add some Hymn to Tourach, Cabal Therapy or Mind Twist. Also 1 or 2 Bad Moons to speed up the clock on the Bitterblossoms (people seem to disagree with this approach but I have no idea why as no real reason has been given)

If you're still looking for big creatures against aggro though perhaps give ole Phyrexian Scuta a try? or hell throw in a Plague Sliver for the hell of it. Hypnotic Specter is also reliable but not exactly for creature combat...

I think you misunderstood... decklist in reply#1... the one without bitterblossom...

[reaperbong]

I did indeed, sorry about that.

Most of my comment stands though, I'd add 2x Hymn to Tourach or Mind Twist and 2 big creatures like Phyrexian Scuta. If not how about just toss in 4x Hypnotic Specter?

Either that or go the Nantuko Shade route. Hell since you're splashing green toss in a Berserk or two to blow up the Shades.

[overseer1234]

I want to test this list (reply no#1) on my local 4th april tournament. The meta has ALOT of aggro (Goblins, Fish, Affinity, Merfolks and some stuff that includes Lightning Bolts). I'm pretty sure I should go -4 Phyrexian Negator in the main and put them in the sideboard.

If that's how you're meta looks like I would go for a really aggro based version of the deck (looking at the legacy EVA Green deck), so you're bitches are just more badass then theirs.

As for replacement's for the negator you could possibly use ashenmoor gouger (4/4 that can't block (whoowh, what a drawback...) or wasp lancer (3/2 flying for 3 mana isn't that bad)

Also maindecking jitte's in an aggro environment isn't such a bad call either I think...

[Bone]

Thanks alot -4 Negator, +2 Hymn, +1 Nantuko Shade, +1 Hypnotic Specter seems okay.

But what kind of matchups are Spinning Darkness really good in? not 100% sure about it...

[overseer1234]

Thanks alot -4 Negator, +2 Hymn, +1 Nantuko Shade, +1 Hypnotic Specter seems okay.

Well... I suggest reading Smennen's article about this... since he's put some serious thoughts on paper about all of these cards

But what kind of matchups are Spinning Darkness really good in? not 100% sure about it...

In any aggro matchup going from goblins to fish, to even shop (killing juggernaut and gaining 3 is pretty good no?)
Also having enough cards in the G-yard isn't that hard with this deck anyway, so look at it as a pact that doesn't require an upkeep

[Bone]

Well... I suggest reading Smennen's article about this... since he's put some serious thoughts on paper about all of these cards

In any aggro matchup going from goblins to fish, to even shop (killing juggernaut and gaining 3 is pretty good no?)
Also having enough cards in the G-yard isn't that hard with this deck anyway, so look at it as a pact that doesn't require an upkeep

1.How much does premium membership cost? Can I pay with paypal? Is it possible to pay just for 1 article?

2.Yeah, but if Bob finds him I first lose 6 life before I gain 3 so it becomes netto -3 life...

But yeah, helps alot in the aggro matchup

[overseer1234]

Good news:

Since it's older then 3 month's it's free to read for everyone now.

Here's the link:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/16819_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Vintage_On_A_Budget_Suicide_Black_2K9.html

Also, I know spinning darkness hurt when bob hit's it, but then again, we're playing suicide Ive already kicked the B-blossom because it hurt way to much (and goyf beats harder )

[Bone]

Good news:

Since it's older then 3 month's it's free to read for everyone now.

Here's the link:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/16819_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Vintage_On_A_Budget_Suicide_Black_2K9.html

Also, I know spinning darkness hurt when bob hit's it, but then again, we're playing suicide Ive already kicked the B-blossom because it hurt way to much (and goyf beats harder )

Yeah

Btw I have tested the Leyline/Ill Gotten Gains version for about 20-30 games against 10 different decks, and it sucked. I won 2 out of 10 matches (against manaless Ichorid and Workshop). I will change this deck to the Menendian's original list in the opening post. And hope for better results with it.

[nineisnoone]

Personally, I'd prefer Darkblast over Spinning Darkness unless you really think that 3rd toughness is going to show up a lot.   Hitting opposing Bob's alone is reason enough to look for a different card (well, unless you don't see any I guess).

[overseer1234]

Well I guess that's meta dependent.

Killing off a juggernaut is pretty good if it gives you 3 life in the process.

Also, mostly fish decks run Bob (sometime's other combo),And they've god a pretty hard time dealing with goyf and gator (where the darkness also helps uw win the race).

Darkblast sounds pretty good, but When you're facing 2 toughness critters it becomes a pain (painters servant for example), so I think you should test it (and share your result's).

@bone:

Took you long enough to realize that , but If you do insist on playing more combo oriented, I would suggest cutting B-blossom/goyf, and maybe the edict's (or a rod) for a combination of nights whisper (better than you would think), cabal ritual (+some fetch because you want to get threshold easier...) and an extra Tendrills (makes finding it easier..). you're not as aggressive as a powered combo deck, but gator and bob beats help scrape off some storm count.

[nineisnoone]

Darkblast sounds pretty good, but When you're facing 2 toughness critters it becomes a pain (painters servant for example), so I think you should test it (and share your result's).

You mean 3.  But I don't really run it for Painter's anyways.  My favorite SB strategy against Painter's is just to SB a Grindstone.  I find they rarely do (or can 'cause it's pretty expensive) play Painter + Grindstone + activate on the same turn.  So usually I just tutor up a Grindstone, wait for them to drop a Painters, lure them to blow something up or counter.  And then Grindstone FTW.

Against any thing that relies on 2 toughness or weaker creatures it's pretty amazing.  It is the suck against 'Goyf (unless you are running 'Goyf as well). I'm not sure how frequently Spinning Darkness would hit it, though obviously more frequently than Darkblast.  So for me it wins aggro match-ups if you can neutralize 'Goyf.  Blossom (blocking) and Negator (counter-attacking) go well in that direction imo.