Casual Sliver

[d0rsal]

@ RecklessEmbermage - /sigh  oh i've been paying attn, its just a stupidass idea.  it was my understanding from Djinn's intial post that he was interested in a competitive sliver deck.  what you & guli are talking about is a pile, but you boys rock on w/ your mind-humping

[Guli]

I like talking about piles.

edit: Dorsal i also want to say that you are partially right about 'slivers'. They didn't print so many +1/+1 or +2/+2 for nothing. And with some opening hands it can go very quickly. For example with 2-3 quick sinew/muscle it goes extremely fast 5-10 dmg/turn.

4x Mutavault (u miss a land drop but its going to be a 3/3 or 4/4 most of the time)
4x Sinew Sliver
4x Muscle Sliver
4x Cautery Sliver (Will virtually set your opponents life to 17, assuming you have 3 slivers in play and 3 mana. I didn't calculate but my experience tells me that could be 1 turn faster clockwise. Plus don't forget these days they lose life to fetch/force/confidant so that helps as well)
4x Bonesplitter Sliver (I would use this instead of the 3 cc slivers that give you only +1. The might sliver costs too much, won't get that many mana anyway deck doesn't like long games)
4x Sidewind Sliver (this helps a lot vs fish, you can play Hunter Sliver and Talon Sliver in SB to make it even more deadly)

I would play this creature base.

I would assume to have a problem against blue and or combo in general. So I would add

4x Null Rod
4x Seedtime (End of turn gifts or intuition? This card can really STEAL games you would lose otherwise. It can also suck but I think against decks that this card is dead the sliver creature base has a good shot of overwhelming them anyway)
4x Orim's Chant (Another attempt to 'time walk' and add in a surprise factor)

Maybe that new white time walk from new set can be used as well. What do you think about this dorsal?

[d0rsal]

guli i personally do not like the double colored mana slivers b/c inevitably you will get color screwed, murphy's law, so thats why i steered clear of the slivers that required 2 colors to cast except the necrotic sliver b/c he's my 'sliver bullet'.  anything on the board you dont like, you remove, w/ some exceptions obviously.  as for the cautery sliver, if you're looking to sac for additional dmg, then the acidic sliver mite be a better call.  i think that 4 mana for the bonesplitter sliver mite be a bit too expensive, but only testing would prove or disprove this.  not sure what i'd take out of my deck to test him & i'd probably only want to run 3, but he mite be 1 hell of a finisher.  i'll have to think on it.  dont discount the sedge sliver @ 3 mana, i used to run him in place of the necrotic sliver, the regeneration can actually be very annoying    but the necrotic sliver has come in way too handy @ times for me to leave out of the deck.  you are correct in saying that the deck doesnt like long games, but its far more resilient then you mite imagine, but that also goes back to the necrotic sliver.  i run the hunter sliver in start up mainly for bobs, welders & magus of the moon, which can really put a hurting on the deck if you dont have a gemhide sliver out.  as for blue & combo decks, i've got a very positive record against them simply b/c of the amount of pressure i put on them.  w/ 35 slivers in the deck, its gonna run over you in a hurry if you dont find your 'win condition' asap.  its 50/50 against stax & against creature-based decks, you should win the creature battles.  i will say that workshop aggro has by far been the worst match up for the deck b/c it can drop big ass creature after big ass creature.  *disclaimer* your mileage may vary, but i've been extremely pleased w/ the deck considering it started out as a fun deck built on a lark & has actually turned into a semi-viable deck b/c it can kill on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th turns; which is a must when playing vintage.  i'm not saying this is vintage tournament worthy, i'm just saying that its actually alot better then most ppl would think *disclaimer*  

[Guli]

I once created an enitre deck around the necrotic sliver. On a side note I do want to stress out that I am not claiming that any of these posts are tournament material (for the moment). However it is nice to talk about the possibilities and share the stuff we tried.

I used Necrotic Sliver with Oath of ghouls to get back slivers and keep destroying stuff. Mostly if I had the time I destroyed their lands in combination with null rod. So their was again a mana denial theme in it. I also used aether vial to speed up this engine of destruction.

Cautery is stronger than Acidic because the activation costs will enable you do use the ability far more easier. Plus the colors white will give you sinew but red/black will not. So it is easier to play with  aggro sliver. I don't see ANY mana problems with 3 colors. It is simply no issue with fetch lands and duals.

Bonesplitter is simple math. with 3 slivers on the table it gives an extra 6 damage. That can be HUGE as in lethal damage when it hits the board. I am simply trying to lower their amounts of turns they have. Usually they count what is on the board in reference of their life total and assume you MIGHT have another sinew or muscle and play accordingly. But +2 attack for all creatures can be a very big surprise which they did not anticipate. I am using the Cautery sliver in the same way. Having 3-4 mana means you have an extra 3-4 damage waiting to happen. So if you know they have a counter for bone splitter you can always go for the Cautery kill. Mana wise it is the same if you comparre with acidic, it comes down to 1 damage for  . I know, per sliver you get more out of it but you can't ignore the colors and activation cost in vintage hence Cautery is the correct choice here. I would play acidic with sedge sliver but again that would be another 'team' or 'creature base'.

[d0rsal]

bonesplitter is just too expensive to cast, i had a chance to play the deck agn this wknd.  against a shop deck w/ spheres of resistance out, there was just no way to cast him reliably.  & god help you if he got drained!   

[Guli]

// Lands
    4  Mutavault
    8  Island
    1  Strip Mine
    3  Polluted Delta
    3  Flooded Strand
    1  Black Lotus
    1 [JGC] Sol Ring
    1  Mox Sapphire

// Creatures
    4  Telekinetic Sliver
    4  Screeching Sliver
    1  Inkwell Leviathan

// Spells
    4  Mana Drain
    4  Force of Will
    1 Misdirection
    4  Daze
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Time Walk
    1  Thirst for Knowledge
    1  Brainstorm
    1  Gush
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Merchant Scroll
    1  Hurkyl's Recall
    1  Echoing Truth
    1  Tinker

    3  Lantern of Insight
    3  Static Orb

With telekinetic and screeching this list looks like a good place to start.

[RecklessEmbermage]

I have played this for a few games against fish and aggro. Enough to be sure it's completely dead:

4 screeching
2 metallic
2 hibernation
4 trinket mage
3 telekinetic

3 top
2 lantern
2 pithing needle

3 counterbalance

4 FoW
3 memory lapse
4 predict
1 brainstorm
1 mystical
1 vampiric
1 demonic

5 fetch
1 underground sea
1 vault of whispers
3 swamp
6 island
3 mutavault
1 strip mine

Countertop is the only really potent part of the deck. Predict also performs very well. The slivers are just too weak/slow to be worth further testing, as far as I can judge. The few games this deck won, I had countertop down turn two, and even then, the team takes forever to establish real control. I never ended the game with more than 6-7 life.

Could we work on a different approach?

[Guli]

I have played this for a few games against fish and aggro. Enough to be sure it's completely dead:

4 screeching
2 metallic
2 hibernation
4 trinket mage
3 telekinetic

3 top
2 lantern
2 pithing needle

3 counterbalance

4 FoW
3 memory lapse
4 predict
1 brainstorm
1 mystical
1 vampiric
1 demonic

5 fetch
1 underground sea
1 vault of whispers
3 swamp
6 island
3 mutavault
1 strip mine

Countertop is the only really potent part of the deck. Predict also performs very well. The slivers are just too weak/slow to be worth further testing, as far as I can judge. The few games this deck won, I had countertop down turn two, and even then, the team takes forever to establish real control. I never ended the game with more than 6-7 life.

Could we work on a different approach?

Look at my list a post earlier. There is a huge difference.

[Guli]

Another way to play the control aggro role is with black. The slivers in this version are a bit more costly but at the same time very effective on the battlefield and they give a decent clock. I like this better than the blue version personally. You first disrupt them while building up some mana, then cast the slivers that are very strong against any creature that slipped through.

Sedge Sliver
Toxin Sliver
Mutavault (remember it has regenerate if mana is available so it could potentially survive wasteland)

You can use Hunter Sliver in Sideboard versus Aggro.

Cards that could be used;

Duress
Thoughtseize
Null Rod
Rack and Ruin (This card is good and should be used more in the current meta by fish that has access to red mana)
Dark Confidant
Leyline of the void (SB or MD)

I also tried to splash white into it to use:

Essence Sliver (this was surprisingly good and surprisingly relevant, 2 swings with a couple of your slivers which are 4/4 means you gain a lot life making it even hard for storm players to finish you off.)
Hide/Seek (the colors fit and its a good utility card really)
Skeletal Scrying (this was my draw engine and it was amazing with the life link and Seek)
Sinew Sliver (Meh, didn't really like it but he did sometimes give that extra boost)

[RecklessEmbermage]

Look at my list a post earlier. There is a huge difference.

Yes, there is. I didn't proxy up drains or power, because they're out of my price range and I chose a slightly different approach overall. Still, those slivers themselves are so bad that I feel they don't deserve attention.

I really like the black approach. Sedge sliver isn't strong in and on itself to play red (white would give you more quality cards), but Bwr for hide/seek, sinew and essence looks good. Something like this (unpowered)?

4 dark ritual (either that or aether vial and pithing needle over rod)
3 duress
3 thoughtseize
1 demonic tutor
1 demonic consultation
2 diabolic edict (could be stp, depending on meta)
1 darkblast
3 hide / seek (sides out for artifact-destruction against shops and more slivers against aggro)

4 null rod

4 dark confidant
4 sinew sliver
2 acidic sliver (possibly one acidic, one heart -they can both shave a turn off your clock)
4 sedge sliver
2 essence sliver (could go up to three after sideboarding, against tendrils and aggro)
2 toxin sliver (not awesome, but a good body, playable off ritual and works against leviathan and goyf)

3 mutavault
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
4 bloodstained mire
2 polluted delta
2 badlands
2 scrubland
2 swamp

Sideboard:
4 leyline of the void
1 planar void (rather that than jailer as a tutor-target. Less fragile.)
2 acidic sliver (works in the aggro match-up and against ichorid)
1 essence sliver
3 rack and ruin
1 hide / seek (this card opens up sideboard slots brilliantly)
3 open slots

[Guli]

Look at my list a post earlier. There is a huge difference.

Yes, there is. I didn't proxy up drains or power, because they're out of my price range and I chose a slightly different approach overall. Still, those slivers themselves are so bad that I feel they don't deserve attention.

I really like the black approach. Sedge sliver isn't strong in and on itself to play red (white would give you more quality cards), but Bwr for hide/seek, sinew and essence looks good. Something like this (unpowered)?

4 dark ritual (either that or aether vial and pithing needle over rod)
3 duress
3 thoughtseize
1 demonic tutor
1 demonic consultation
2 diabolic edict (could be stp, depending on meta)
1 darkblast
3 hide / seek (sides out for artifact-destruction against shops and more slivers against aggro)

4 null rod

4 dark confidant
4 sinew sliver
2 acidic sliver (possibly one acidic, one heart -they can both shave a turn off your clock)
4 sedge sliver
2 essence sliver (could go up to three after sideboarding, against tendrils and aggro)
2 toxin sliver (not awesome, but a good body, playable off ritual and works against leviathan and goyf)

3 mutavault
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
4 bloodstained mire
2 polluted delta
2 badlands
2 scrubland
2 swamp

Sideboard:
4 leyline of the void
1 planar void (rather that than jailer as a tutor-target. Less fragile.)
2 acidic sliver (works in the aggro match-up and against ichorid)
1 essence sliver
3 rack and ruin
1 hide / seek (this card opens up sideboard slots brilliantly)
3 open slots

Looks like a very unfocused deck. Deathtouch and Lifelink are not bad abilities. They both provide an answer to Tinker. Let them swing with a single 11/11 trample. You gain back 8 life while dealing 8 damage if you counter attack (or just block/regenerate and gain life). They also can't just block because you can still attack and regenerate WHILE still gaining life closing up the storm kill as well. Of course to get this setup of essence/sedge you first need to disrupt them the best cards available. Remember the thread was about casual sliver decks. We all accept that slivers are not going to win a tournament but that doesn't stop me to try making something interesting. Basically the idea is to combine. The Deathtouch, Lifelink and Regenerate combined with big bodies (3/3 up to 4/4) is designed to close the game after your initial harass. It is hard to storm kill a deck that cripples you with duress effects, denies you mana and starts gaining life in relatively huge proportions(8-11 per turn). And like i said earlier the Tinker route is not an option either.

The vault/key kill needs special attention while splash damaging shop decks. Rack and Ruin plus hide and seek should cover that area nicely in terms of removing permanents while null rod shuts things down. I am still worried about Welder though, that is why maybe Hunter Sliver could be viable in main deck to get rid of welders, confidants and spash damage any form of fish. EDIT: Maybe acidic is good here as well, will help vs ichorid too.

Also there is nothing that prevents the approach to use other creatures like dark confidant since for now slivers don't have a good drawer in their arsenal.

Dark ritual is extremely important to gain tempo, it buys you a turn or two justifying a little the use of 4 mana slivers. Also a good drawer is skeletal scrying with rituals and life gain with hide/seek and essence.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Look at my list a post earlier. There is a huge difference.

Yes, there is. I didn't proxy up drains or power, because they're out of my price range and I chose a slightly different approach overall. Still, those slivers themselves are so bad that I feel they don't deserve attention.

I really like the black approach. Sedge sliver isn't strong in and on itself to play red (white would give you more quality cards), but Bwr for hide/seek, sinew and essence looks good. Something like this (unpowered)?

4 dark ritual (either that or aether vial and pithing needle over rod)
3 duress
3 thoughtseize
1 demonic tutor
1 demonic consultation
2 diabolic edict (could be stp, depending on meta)
1 darkblast
3 hide / seek (sides out for artifact-destruction against shops and more slivers against aggro)

4 null rod

4 dark confidant
4 sinew sliver
2 acidic sliver (possibly one acidic, one heart -they can both shave a turn off your clock)
4 sedge sliver
2 essence sliver (could go up to three after sideboarding, against tendrils and aggro)
2 toxin sliver (not awesome, but a good body, playable off ritual and works against leviathan and goyf)

3 mutavault
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
4 bloodstained mire
2 polluted delta
2 badlands
2 scrubland
2 swamp

Sideboard:
4 leyline of the void
1 planar void (rather that than jailer as a tutor-target. Less fragile.)
2 acidic sliver (works in the aggro match-up and against ichorid)
1 essence sliver
3 rack and ruin
1 hide / seek (this card opens up sideboard slots brilliantly)
3 open slots

Looks like a very unfocused deck. Deathtouch and Lifelink are not bad abilities. They both provide an answer to Tinker. Let them swing with a single 11/11 trample. You gain back 8 life while dealing 8 damage if you counter attack (or just block/regenerate and gain life). They also can't just block because you can still attack and regenerate WHILE still gaining life closing up the storm kill as well. Of course to get this setup of essence/sedge you first need to disrupt them the best cards available. Remember the thread was about casual sliver decks. We all accept that slivers are not going to win a tournament but that doesn't stop me to try making something interesting. Basically the idea is to combine. The Deathtouch, Lifelink and Regenerate combined with big bodies (3/3 up to 4/4) is designed to close the game after your initial harass. It is hard to storm kill a deck that cripples you with duress effects, denies you mana and starts gaining life in relatively huge proportions(8-11 per turn). And like i said earlier the Tinker route is not an option either.

The vault/key kill needs special attention while splash damaging shop decks. Rack and Ruin plus hide and seek should cover that area nicely in terms of removing permanents while null rod shuts things down. I am still worried about Welder though, that is why maybe Hunter Sliver could be viable in main deck to get rid of welders, confidants and spash damage any form of fish. EDIT: Maybe acidic is good here as well, will help vs ichorid too.

Also there is nothing that prevents the approach to use other creatures like dark confidant since for now slivers don't have a good drawer in their arsenal.

Dark ritual is extremely important to gain tempo, it buys you a turn or two justifying a little the use of 4 mana slivers. Also a good drawer is skeletal scrying with rituals and life gain with hide/seek and essence.

It "looks like a very unfocused deck"? And after that you go through all the motions of stating the strengths of the individual cards in the deck, without saying why you think is unfocused. Not very helpful.

I can't take credit for it, apart from the acidic slivers and a shaky manabase. I just took your idea and gave it a shape.

The sinew slivers are good against aggro, but I guess they could be cut for something black and disruptive (hypnotic specter?). I still feel the deck needs some early board-presence and preferably a sliver, to take advantage of the 3-4 mana ones. Possibly one yawgmoth's will, 1 essence sliver, the third acidic sliver and a colored land in those slots? 22 lands is a bit low for a mana-hungry deck with 5 wastes.

Feel free to suggest changes!

[d0rsal]

& that is why i'm playing the list i posted @ the very beginning of this thread.  you tried doing 'cute trix' w/ slivers against some viable T1 decks & things didnt go so well...  like it or not based on the exsisting sliver card pool,  you're going to have to play slivers like 'thugs', until they print more undercosted slivers w/ decent abilities; the higher mana costing slivers are just too slow in today's vintage.