[Deck] Combo Elves

[voltron00x]

This thread is meant to build on the development of Combo Elves as a viable budget Vintage deck, seeing as the original thread (based around a tournament report from December 2008) is justifiably locked.

For reference, here's the original thread with the development of the deck by Rich and Owen:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36980.0

I believe this deck deserves a more permanent thread, as in my opinion there is no better budget deck in all of Vintage.  A 15-proxy version of this deck is absurdly cheap.  At 15 proxies, based on Rich's posted list, you proxy Lotus, Emerald, Bayou, Fetches (8), and Thoughtseize (4).  All you really need of any value at all are Glimpses and Skullclamps.  I would guess that you can acquire this entire deck for $50 for a 15-proxy tournament, and have a legitimate shot at making the top 8.  I actually have a hard time thinking of a cheaper way to play competitive Magic in ANY format, which is certainly ironic.  Further, if you don't get some sort of thrill out of being able to play a turn-one Llanowar Elves and then win on turn two against fully-powered Vintage decks, you've lost your love of the game.

Last weekend, I realized I still had my Extended Elves deck put together, so given the surprisingly minimal changes to port the deck to Vintage, I figured I'd proxy up a Lotus & Emerald and play-test with the deck in between rounds at the Dan Herd Memorial on Saturday. 

This is what I ended up with after around 30 games.  The only real change was to move Thoughtseize to the main:

4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Birchlore Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regal Force
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Skullclamp
4 Pact of Summoning
3 Thoughtseize
1 Grapeshot
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
2 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
 
Originally I left one Pendelhaven and one Canopy in the list to see how that worked, but their being non-forests came into play with Quirion, so they're no good.  I'm still not sure whether or not Thoughtseize (or Duress) are needed main, but I feel like they're worth it.  I think you definitely want at least one, or I do anyway, since some people locally play Stifle.  Ok, well, AJ Grasso plays Stifle.  Still, I'd hate to do all that work just to have Grapeshot be Stifled, and then lose my board to an EE or Powder Keg or something similar.  Also, the possibility exists of someone ripping the Grapeshot from your hand using Duress/TS, or losing it to a Jar or Wheel, so Eternal Witness seems worthwhile.  It's also randomly good to get back a Glimpse, Clamp, Sentinel, or Pact.

If additional testing suggests that TS/Duress are not needed main, I'd probably add a Fastbond and 2 Visionaries (or 1 Visionary and a black Tutor, Vamp or Demonic).

I didn't really feel like Visionary was necessary, although the card is definitely good and in Extended served as an additional "engine" of sorts, and I'm sure it could fulfill the same role here.  That said, this deck already has Clamp, so I'm not sure if Visionary is really needed.  I'd have to guess it's the worst card in the original list.  I'll have to test with it to confirm, but playing w/out it, I never really felt like I wanted it.  There were many points where I wanted Fastbond, but to some extent it might be "win more".  If you're in a race situation, say against TPS / ANT or Ichorid, however, there is a huge difference between winning T2 and only half going off to set up for the T3 win.  Fastbond would often make the difference, however you'd probably want to adjust the fetch vs mana-producing land count slightly if you run Fastbond.

I added the second Bayou just for insurance; admittedly you have access to Black using Birchlore, but it still feels worthwhile.

Although it isn't seeing much play, I definitely think Elves is legit and it might actually be the best budget deck in Vintage... that said, it's also a very difficult deck to pilot if you're not familiar with the Extended version, which I assume many Vintage players are not.  Further, I think the SB needs further exploration before I'd feel comfortable posting one.  It needs to address the weakness to Chalice of the Void and Sphere of Resistance, have GY hate for Ichorid, probably more TS and/or Duress for combo, as well as additional support against Tezz.

The optimal environment for this deck is one of other budget or anti-Tezz decks like Fish or R/G Beats (which it should do very well against), Tezz, and Ichorid (as the foil for Tezz).  It will not flourish in an environment loaded with other combo decks or against Shop decks.

If anyone else is running this deck in events large or small, please let us know about your success (or even lack thereof).

[Darkenslight]

Well, Clamp's restricted, so you're not running four of them.

Other then that, the deck looks interesting, to say the least..

[Purple Hat]

Well, Clamp's restricted, so you're not running four of them.

Other then that, the deck looks interesting, to say the least..

no it's not.

[oneofchaos]

I have been playing this in a no proxy metagame:


// Lands
    11  Forest

// Creatures
    4  Nettle Sentinel
    4  Quirion Ranger
    4  Heritage Druid
    4  Llanowar Elves
    4  Fyndhorn Elves
    4  Birchlore Rangers
    3  Wirewood Symbiote
    1  Regal Force
    1  Eternal Witness
    2  Elvish Visionary

// Spells
    4  Summoner's Pact
    1  Grapeshot
    4  Skullclamp
    4  Glimpse of Nature
    4  Land Grant
    1  Fastbond

Nobody plays any spheres/shops so I feel safe with land grant.  Land grant also untaps nettle which can prove sometimes relevent.  Forests don't untap him.  I think fastbond is awesome, as it essentially guarantees a turn 2 win most of the time, and when your comboing off it reduces the chances of fizzling into a very very small number.  I have never truly loved wirewood, so I only play three because he is most definitely not an elf. 

[voltron00x]

I have been playing this in a no proxy metagame:


// Lands
    11  Forest

// Creatures
    4  Nettle Sentinel
    4  Quirion Ranger
    4  Heritage Druid
    4  Llanowar Elves
    4  Fyndhorn Elves
    4  Birchlore Rangers
    3  Wirewood Symbiote
    1  Regal Force
    1  Eternal Witness
    2  Elvish Visionary

// Spells
    4  Summoner's Pact
    1  Grapeshot
    4  Skullclamp
    4  Glimpse of Nature
    4  Land Grant
    1  Fastbond

Nobody plays any spheres/shops so I feel safe with land grant.  Land grant also untaps nettle which can prove sometimes relevent.  Forests don't untap him.  I think fastbond is awesome, as it essentially guarantees a turn 2 win most of the time, and when your comboing off it reduces the chances of fizzling into a very very small number.  I have never truly loved wirewood, so I only play three because he is most definitely not an elf. 

I agree re: Symbiote, he seems much less effective than in the Extended version of the deck.  Our lists our pretty similar outside of the Land Grants.  What's your sideboard looked like?

[oneofchaos]

My sideboard usually has 4 chalice/4 virdian shaman/7 X. 

I play in a shop with a few really good players and a couple that have power, and a lot of bad aggro decks.  The land grants are just amazing, because with them you thin your deck like fetchlands would.  Secondly all your lands are now forests, meaning quirion ranger is the nuts.  Finally land grant + fastbond = good times.

The visionaries I have tried replacing with the fourth symbiote/12th forest, a pair of elves of deep shadow for black sb options, cute things like essence warden/eldarmari, etc.  I really for the life of me can't exactly figure out what I want to play in that slot.  I know elvish visionary + wirewood symbiote is cute tho. 

[tito del monte]

I'm really interested in the deck and have tried it in a few formats though not competitive Vintage yet. Playing a Legacy version at the moment with both Mirror Entity and Predator Dragon over Grapeshot - and I guess my question is, wouldn't you rather play a win condition you can tutor for?

 

[oneofchaos]

I'm really interested in the deck and have tried it in a few formats though not competitive Vintage yet. Playing a Legacy version at the moment with both Mirror Entity and Predator Dragon over Grapeshot - and I guess my question is, wouldn't you rather play a win condition you can tutor for?

 

I don't see why you'd want to play dragon.  It can be bounced/swords/etc.  Grapeshot can only be stifled.  Also I don't really see it as a need to tutor it, I usually win because I can draw my deck and find grapeshot and use it.  The Eternal Witness is just in the deck to reclaim it if necessary, otherwise I would play another elf of some sort. 

[tito del monte]

@oneofchaos: Fair enough - though actually if the meta does become Tezz v Fish, having a creature kill condition might just be better - more Fish means more chance of Stifle, while the bounce most people are packing now is geared at bouncing Inkwell Leviathan or DSC.

Anyway, I look forward to trying your build - Elf combo is everything Kobold-Clamp should've been

[voltron00x]

I'm really interested in the deck and have tried it in a few formats though not competitive Vintage yet. Playing a Legacy version at the moment with both Mirror Entity and Predator Dragon over Grapeshot - and I guess my question is, wouldn't you rather play a win condition you can tutor for?

 

Keep in mind, the decks have one fundamental difference - Skullclamp.  The Vintage list actually can't tutor up Predator Dragon or Mirror Entity because it isn't running Chord of Calling (or Hivemaster).  Instead it has a back-up engine in Skullclamp, which actually does a pretty ridiculous job imitating Glimpse when it needs to.  Further, the reason I advocate playing at least a couple Thoughtseize or Duress is so that when you're going off, you can clear your opponent's hand of Stifle(s) to make sure your Grapeshot is good for the win.

I have wondered if, in the Visionary slot, a few Hivemasters might be a good addition even w/out Chord, because it makes the Clamp engine that much better.  Has anyone else tested this?

[EnialisLiadon]

I've been getting a feel for this deck, using the list in the original post but making the change of:
-1 Quirion Ranger, +1 Thoughtseize

I really want the full 4 Thoughtseize, and the Ranger seemed like a better cut than a Symbiote, since Symbiote works nicely with Glimpse.  Though if this is off-base, please let me know.

As for the sideboard, I'm looking into cards like Xantid Swarm or Vexing Shusher, Seeds of Innocence (does a nice Hurkyl's Recall impression), the obligatory Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus, etc.

I'm hoping this inexpensive deck can help get a friend of mine into competitive vintage; he loves the format, but can't front the steep up-front cost.

EDIT:  I also want to test out a single Elvish Spirit Guide.  I liked ESG in Flash, as a Summoner's Pact could pretend to be a Lotus Petal if needed.  Not sure what to cut, though.  I doubt cutting a land for it would be correct.

[voltron00x]

I've been getting a feel for this deck, using the list in the original post but making the change of:
-1 Quirion Ranger, +1 Thoughtseize

I really want the full 4 Thoughtseize, and the Ranger seemed like a better cut than a Symbiote, since Symbiote works nicely with Glimpse.  Though if this is off-base, please let me know.

As for the sideboard, I'm looking into cards like Xantid Swarm or Vexing Shusher, Seeds of Innocence (does a nice Hurkyl's Recall impression), the obligatory Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus, etc.

I'm hoping this inexpensive deck can help get a friend of mine into competitive vintage; he loves the format, but can't front the steep up-front cost.

EDIT:  I also want to test out a single Elvish Spirit Guide.  I liked ESG in Flash, as a Summoner's Pact could pretend to be a Lotus Petal if needed.  Not sure what to cut, though.  I doubt cutting a land for it would be correct.

Elvish Spirit Guide and Fastbond are the two cards I really wanted to fit but couldn't work out in addition to maindeck TS or Duress.  There are corner cases where the ESG would be very good, but most of the time I seemed to be using the Pacts for something more relevant (usually to build up Nettles, to find Heritage, or to get Regal Force).  Fastbond along with the Quirions will result in pretty much an auto-win once you start comboing off, since you can even bounce Quirion with the Wirewood and replay.  Wirewood does definitely lose some value without Mirror Entity being in the deck, since they can no longer bounce themselves.

Regardless, this deck is definitely still in the developmental phase so there isn't really a list I'd consider to be "canonical", although there's a definite core to the deck that creates the engine (Llanowar, Fyndhorn, Nettle, Heritage, Pact, Clamp, Glimpse, Birchlore, plus some combination of untappers in Quirion and Wirewood, 1 win condition, and approximately 15 mana sources which may or may not include Land Grant). 

That gives approximately 6-8 slots that are open for experimentation, usually for:  Fastbond, Elvish Spirit Guide, E. Witness, Regal Force, Thoughtseize / Duress, Elvish Visionary, additional Wirewoods / Quirion Rangers, Demonic / Vampiric Tutor, 2nd Win condition.

[Stormanimagus]

I've been getting a feel for this deck, using the list in the original post but making the change of:
-1 Quirion Ranger, +1 Thoughtseize

I really want the full 4 Thoughtseize, and the Ranger seemed like a better cut than a Symbiote, since Symbiote works nicely with Glimpse.  Though if this is off-base, please let me know.

As for the sideboard, I'm looking into cards like Xantid Swarm or Vexing Shusher, Seeds of Innocence (does a nice Hurkyl's Recall impression), the obligatory Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus, etc.

I'm hoping this inexpensive deck can help get a friend of mine into competitive vintage; he loves the format, but can't front the steep up-front cost.

EDIT:  I also want to test out a single Elvish Spirit Guide.  I liked ESG in Flash, as a Summoner's Pact could pretend to be a Lotus Petal if needed.  Not sure what to cut, though.  I doubt cutting a land for it would be correct.

Elvish Spirit Guide and Fastbond are the two cards I really wanted to fit but couldn't work out in addition to maindeck TS or Duress.  There are corner cases where the ESG would be very good, but most of the time I seemed to be using the Pacts for something more relevant (usually to build up Nettles, to find Heritage, or to get Regal Force).  Fastbond along with the Quirions will result in pretty much an auto-win once you start comboing off, since you can even bounce Quirion with the Wirewood and replay.  Wirewood does definitely lose some value without Mirror Entity being in the deck, since they can no longer bounce themselves.

Regardless, this deck is definitely still in the developmental phase so there isn't really a list I'd consider to be "canonical", although there's a definite core to the deck that creates the engine (Llanowar, Fyndhorn, Nettle, Heritage, Pact, Clamp, Glimpse, Birchlore, plus some combination of untappers in Quirion and Wirewood, 1 win condition, and approximately 15 mana sources which may or may not include Land Grant). 

That gives approximately 6-8 slots that are open for experimentation, usually for:  Fastbond, Elvish Spirit Guide, E. Witness, Regal Force, Thoughtseize / Duress, Elvish Visionary, additional Wirewoods / Quirion Rangers, Demonic / Vampiric Tutor, 2nd Win condition.

Has anyone tried Cabal Therapy over TS or Duress? Could that possibly be more effective when going off and trying to nab a potential Stifle? You can use the Therapy up front to name some sort of business or TFK or something and then use it again right before Grapeshot.

[voltron00x]

I think the problem with choosing Cabal Therapy is that often there's one clutch spell in your opponent's hand that you want to grab, be it Chalice, FoW, or their own Thoughtseize that's going to take your Gliimpse.  The liklihood of missing a key spell just seems too high to me.

If I were playing in a smaller local event where I knew what the majority of people were playing, though, it might be a different story, since you also have the potential of just blowing someone out on the back of one Cabal Therapy.

[voltron00x]

Played eight games against Remora Tez tonight.  The deck on the play won all 8 games.  Thoughtseize seemed to have little impact on the game either way; playing it on turn 1 makes it considerably harder to win on turn 2, and in that way is somewhat counter-productive.  Further, because Tezz has so many tutors and draw spells, its hard to take anything of consequence.  Taking Vault, Key, or Tezz is only moderately worthwhile, since they can always get it back using Yawg Will.  It actually might be correct to move them all to the SB and to play additional cards to make the engine pop instead, if the expected field is really Tezz-heavy.  Hopefully I'll be able to get some more testing in though, as Tezz drew Vamp Tutor in 6 games, making it much easier for the deck to assemble Key/Vault quickly.

It does seem like running TS is helpful against the rest of the field, so even going 50/50 with them main doesn't seem too bad to me, since we're talking about a budget deck winning half the time against the best deck in Vintage.

Besides Fastbond, another potential engine-enabler is Earthcraft, which Doug Linn discussed yesterday in his article about the Legacy Banned list.  Thoughts on that?

[Bongo]

I don't think Earthcraft is worth a slot, you don't want to have too many cards that are only useful when already comboing.
My current list:

4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Birchlore Ranger

2 Quirion Ranger
2 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Wirewood Hivemaster
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regal Force

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Skullclamp
4 Summoner's Pact

2 Thoughtseize
1 Fastbond
1 Grapeshot

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald


This is a build with a little more one-ofs than usual. I like the single ESG and Hivemaster, as they allow for lines of play which would otherwise be impossible. The Hivemaster is nice in case you have to rely on clamp, and strengthens the beatdown plan against Fish considerably. I'm also a fan of Fastbond, as it sometimes gives you the much-needed speed and explosiveness.
I have found 2 Seize to be enough, you mostly want them to back up your win. If you use them as disruption, you slow yourself down too much. 2 Symbiotes and 2 Rangers also have been enough, especially since you'll draw them eventually and you can tutor them up if you need them.

While I'm pretty confident in the maindeck, I'm still unsure about the SB. Matt, what's your current SB? What do you side OUT in the various matchups?

[Coleco]

Just for discussion, in magic online classic format, Elves is a really popular choice, peoples have access to almost the same cards to build the deck and they have to face deck "similar" to the one played in Vintage. The biggest difference is the absence of Stax archetype.

I will post a decklist that seem to be the standard build everyone is using. Maybe its not optimal for vintage but maybe we can also get some idea that we can use too.

You can notice the absence of Pact in favor of Earthcraft and the addition of Squirrel Nest too. 

Also, there is Essence Warden added to the deck to combat Storm deck who want to kill with Tendrils.. i guess.

14  Forest
2  Birchlore Rangers
2  Elvish Spirit Guide
4  Elvish Visionary
3  Essence Warden
1  Eternal Witness
4  Fyndhorn Elves
4  Heritage Druid
3  Llanowar Elves
4  Nettle Sentinel
1  Wirewood Hivemaster
3  Wirewood Symbiote

4  Earthcraft
4  Glimpse of Nature
1  Grapeshot
4  Skullclamp
2  Squirrel Nest

Sideboard
3  Guttural Response
3  Krosan Grip
2  Relic of Progenitus
4  Root Maze
3  Thorn of Amethyst
 

[voltron00x]

I don't think Earthcraft is worth a slot, you don't want to have too many cards that are only useful when already comboing.
My current list:


4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Birchlore Ranger

2 Quirion Ranger
2 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Wirewood Hivemaster
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regal Force

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Skullclamp
4 Summoner's Pact

2 Thoughtseize
1 Fastbond
1 Grapeshot

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald


This is a build with a little more one-ofs than usual. I like the single ESG and Hivemaster, as they allow for lines of play which would otherwise be impossible. The Hivemaster is nice in case you have to rely on clamp, and strengthens the beatdown plan against Fish considerably. I'm also a fan of Fastbond, as it sometimes gives you the much-needed speed and explosiveness.
I have found 2 Seize to be enough, you mostly want them to back up your win. If you use them as disruption, you slow yourself down too much. 2 Symbiotes and 2 Rangers also have been enough, especially since you'll draw them eventually and you can tutor them up if you need them.

While I'm pretty confident in the maindeck, I'm still unsure about the SB. Matt, what's your current SB? What do you side OUT in the various matchups?

My one concern with this list is that you only have 2 Quirion Rangers... they are just so good.  I felt bad cutting down to three!  I may try this list though, the one-ofs make plenty of sense given how the deck functions.

As far as sideboarding, it is always tough in this type of deck.  Realistically you only have 8-10 cards maximum that you can shift around for any given match-up, but in practice sideboarding more than 5-6 cards seriously impacts the performance of the deck.  In your list, the cards you can move in and out while still functioning correctly (not optimally, but correctly) would be:

2 Symbiote
2 Quirion (don't recommend this or the Symbiote but strictly speaking they're not needed to function)
1 Fastbond
1 Regal Force
1 E. Witness
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hivemaster
1 ESG
1 Shaman

The most expendable are E. Witness (nice card but not really necessary), Fastbond (ditto), Hivemaster (excellent in corner cases but definitely expendable), and ESG (ditto).  I would probably start there whenever sideboarding, although ESG is one you want to keep in against a deck trying to run a mana denial strategy.

I'll try to sketch out an updated SB tonight.

[voltron00x]

Current test list - Vintage Elves

4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Birchlore Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regal Force
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Skullclamp
4 Pact of Summoning
2 Thoughtseize
1 Grapeshot
1 Fastbond
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
2 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
 
Sideboard:

2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Seal of Primordium
1 Viridian Shaman
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle

This sideboard covers most of the bases.  You have 5 cards for Ichorid,  Needle has additional flexibility.  You can go up to 5 discard effects against TPS / ANT, and that might also be the best bet against decks that run Chalice.  Seal of Primordium seems better than Gleeful Sabotage to me, but I'll have to test it some more.  The fact that you can just run it out there and let it sit until you need it gives it an edge IMO.  Swarm comes in against Drain decks (Tezz, Remora, etc). 

The 1 Duress should probably be the 4th Swarm you don't expect to see much Stax, Oath, or TPS (such as in a meta of Tezz, Ichorid, Fish, and budget decks).

[Bongo]

That SB looks really solid. I also like Seal of Primordium over Sabotage. Sometimes you're even glad that you can remove troublesome enchantments.

I rarely pacted for ESG, so I switched it to the 3rd Quirion Ranger. My maindeck is almost identical to yours, with the sole exception of -1 Symbiote, +1 Hivemaster. I also upped the Bayou count to 2. Symbiote is a good card no doubt, but it loses some of its appeal when you don't play Mirror Entity and the format is less focused on creature combat and damage.
Hivemaster has been great against Stax, Fish and R/G aggro. The insect tokens are also my preferred Clamp targets. Without those, you sometimes have to make difficult decisions whether to sac a key elf for more cards, and this may prove to be detrimental.

How often do you board in the discard spells against decks other than Storm? What do you think about Thorn of Amethyst against other quick combo decks?

[voltron00x]

Thorn is pretty decent if you're worried about other combo decks, especially ones designed for speed (like Long or Ad Nauseam) as opposed to those designed for resiliency (like TPS, which we can usually just race).  They just happen to make up a small portion of my local meta, although that seems to be changing (at the last Blue Bell, ANT made t4 and Beaver won with Tezz running 3 Dark Rituals and a Tendrils; at the Herd Memorial, Jeff Folinus drew out of T8 on breakers playing TPS).  Similarly, the fact that Nick Detwiler keeps making the finals of large local events with 5C stax is somewhat alarming, since eventually there's going to be imitators popping up, and this deck doesn't want to see Stax.

The reason why I prefer the discard of TS and Duress is flexibility.  Thorn is pretty much limited to a small sub-set of decks, whereas Duress / TS are not.  Against Shop decks,  probably our best chance of winning is to remove a Wire / Smokestack / Trinisphere / Chalice before it gets online.  Similarly, this SB covers you against random decks like Oath (since you have Seal plus 5 discard effects) which have the potential to race AND run Chalice AND Discard AND force of will.

Despite this apparent shift in the local meta, and the fact that the tournament is for a Lotus (so attendance will be higher than normal and I should probably play whatever I think gives me the best chance to win), I may play Elves at the 6/27 Blue Bell.  I want to write about the deck, and if I'm proposing it as a viable Vintage deck, journalistic integrity (plus the chance for a great article if it performs) compels me to actually run it.  Most people are still running Tezz variants, Fish, and random Aggro so I'll take my chances, although I may increase the amount of Ichorid hate (which is probably the deck I should be playing).

[the boogie man]

I think that esg should definitely have a slot, but I think that it should be in a llanowar elf slot. It just seems to me that 8 llanowar elves is a little too much. they are good first turn, and maybe second, but during combo heritage druid makes them totally obsolete.

[oneofchaos]

@oneofchaos: Fair enough - though actually if the meta does become Tezz v Fish, having a creature kill condition might just be better - more Fish means more chance of Stifle, while the bounce most people are packing now is geared at bouncing Inkwell Leviathan or DSC.

Anyway, I look forward to trying your build - Elf combo is everything Kobold-Clamp should've been

You play eternal witness.  One stifle should not be stopping you from going off.  Also when you untap you overrun their board like a zerg rush of green pointy earred freaks.  I really do love the land grants, as they sometimes allow me to untap nettles mid combo a cycling like effect that makes mana.  With roughly 15 mana sources, you should certainly be averaging about 2 by turn 2, and that is not counting your 8+ one drops that make mana.  The matchup against landstill I thought was horrible due to fire/ice but you should keep throwing dorks at them you will win.  

Just for fun I started splashing different colors for draw 7's, and it just got too clunky.  This deck arguably plays the most 4 off's of any deck in vintage (aside ichorid), so you are more or less playing a deck that will have consistent openers most of the time.  It feels like a standard deck gone wrong because it is so damn inexpensive to build.

edit:
By the way less than 4 rangers feels horrible.  Having a one land opener and being able to keep dropping mana is just sooo good

[voltron00x]

@oneofchaos: Fair enough - though actually if the meta does become Tezz v Fish, having a creature kill condition might just be better - more Fish means more chance of Stifle, while the bounce most people are packing now is geared at bouncing Inkwell Leviathan or DSC.

Anyway, I look forward to trying your build - Elf combo is everything Kobold-Clamp should've been

You play eternal witness.  One stifle should not be stopping you from going off.  Also when you untap you overrun their board like a zerg rush of green pointy earred freaks.  I really do love the land grants, as they sometimes allow me to untap nettles mid combo a cycling like effect that makes mana.  With roughly 15 mana sources, you should certainly be averaging about 2 by turn 2, and that is not counting your 8+ one drops that make mana.  The matchup against landstill I thought was horrible due to fire/ice but you should keep throwing dorks at them you will win.  

Just for fun I started splashing different colors for draw 7's, and it just got too clunky.  This deck arguably plays the most 4 off's of any deck in vintage (aside ichorid), so you are more or less playing a deck that will have consistent openers most of the time.  It feels like a standard deck gone wrong because it is so damn inexpensive to build.

edit:
By the way less than 4 rangers feels horrible.  Having a one land opener and being able to keep dropping mana is just sooo good

The extra mana elves are completely relevant.  A consistent stream of 1-mana elves is needed to continue going off more than the one-shot mana from ESG.  Further, your best turn-1 play (outside of a hand with Mox Emerald or Lotus) is land, mana elf.  Granted the ESG could conceivably add some speed but it didnt seem worth it to me to decrease the consistency.

As far as the Ranger, I'm actually pretty sure I agree that a 4/2 Ranger / Symbiote split is better than 3/3.  I'll probably make that change.