[Free Article] Vintage Elves!

[voltron00x]

This was meant to go up a few weeks ago, but delayed due to technical difficulties, so Craig was kind enough to post it as bonus content this week: 

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/17730_The_Long_Winding_Road_Vintage_Elves.html

Expanding on the forum conversation from TMD, I take a look at Vintage Elves, exploring how the deck works, what makes it a good budget deck compared to others in the field, which metagames are the right call for Elves, and then examine the list to see what cards might be cut and what options are available for futher exploration.

Again, all original credit goes to Rich, Owen, and anyone else who helped create the list posted here (and elsewhere) last December.  Thanks for thinking outside the box and giving this deck a shot.

[BruiZar]

Now that Crop Rotation is unrestricted, Gaea's Cradle becomes much more appealing. You can either choose to run a couple of crop rotations and 1 Gaea's Cradle or run 4 Crop Rotation + 4 Gaea's Cradles so you can chain crop rotations you drew off Glimpse/Clamp.

Tap Cradle, play crop rotation, put Cradle in play, tap Cradle, and so on..

What are your thoughts?

[voltron00x]

Now that Crop Rotation is unrestricted, Gaea's Cradle becomes much more appealing. You can either choose to run a couple of crop rotations and 1 Gaea's Cradle or run 4 Crop Rotation + 4 Gaea's Cradles so you can chain crop rotations you drew off Glimpse/Clamp.

Tap Cradle, play crop rotation, put Cradle in play, tap Cradle, and so on..

What are your thoughts?

I think at most you'd want a few Crop Rotations (2-3) to support 1 Cradle (possibly 2).  The problem is basically figuring out what to cut out of the list (as well as if such a change is honestly needed - it is unquestionably powerful, but I'm not sure it *needs* to be in the deck).  Honestly Fastbond might be able to go with such a configuration, as well as 1 Wirewood Symbiote.  That makes room for 2 Crop Rotations at least, as a start.  Interestingly, running such an engine actually makes Regal Force more appealing.  Once you drop some guys and find Cradle and Cradle into Regal Force, you can probably Crop Rot or E Witness a Crop Rot into a 2nd Cradle and play another Regal Force and win from there. 

However, the question you're asking is at the heart of any conversation about this deck:  which of the following is most important?

1.  Finding combo pieces (Glimpse, Skullclamp):  If this is your concern, you probably want Vamp / Demonic tutor or Elvish Visionary as a back-up draw engine.

2.  Resolving combo pieces:  Maindeck Thoughtseize / Duress helps here if this is a major concern.  It also preemptively removes "lock" pieces from Shop decks.

3.  Not "fizzling" once you start to combo:  Fastbond, "fast" mana like ESG, Cradle (with or without Crop Rot support), Eternal Witness, and Regal Force all fall into this category, and possibly Earthcraft.

I think people have different comfort levels / priorities when it comes to these areas, and therefore we'll see lists that move resources from one area to another.

[JACO]

If you've played this deck enough to know how to build it right, you'll realize that Crade doesn't belong in this deck and therefore neither does Crop Rotation. They're dead draws way too often, especially if you're attempting to go off. The boost Cradle could potentially provide is nice, but it is usually just win-more, and not worth the potential dead draw or mulligans it will force.

[voltron00x]

If you've played this deck enough to know how to build it right, you'll realize that Crade doesn't belong in this deck and therefore neither does Crop Rotation. They're dead draws way too often, especially if you're attempting to go off. The boost Cradle could potentially provide is nice, but it is usually just win-more, and not worth the potential dead draw or mulligans it will force.

In the past 8 weeks, I've played around 125-150 games with the deck, and I've tested extensively against Tezzeret, as well as games against TPS, ANT, 5C Stax, Oath, Landstill, and Ichorid.   I'm not sure what your threshold for "enough" is, but I think that's a pretty solid number.  

I've put Cradle through the paces enough to know that it is at least worth talking about.  My initial list didn't have it, as I stated in the article (I was running MD Thoughtseize), and it was far and away the card my playtest partners asked about the most.  I have it included not as a replacement for a land, but as an additional card replacing 1 Elvish Visionary.  As I said in the article, its the card I'm least sure of.  That said, drawing it as a land drop on turn 2 or 3 is tremendously powerful.  I think I've won every game where its my 2nd land drop, because it is that powerful of an effect.  The cards that it replaced (Visionary, Symbiote #4) aren't even remotely close on the power scale.  But, there are plenty of other cards that are worthy of testing in that slot, all of which (in my opinion) are better than Elvish Visionary.

[Anusien]

When I tested Legacy Elves, Gaea's Cradle was straight-up the card I most wanted to play on Turn 2.  It easily allows you to put 6-8 power onto the table with an average hand.  Normally on turn 2 you can only make one or two creatures.  Cradle gives you so much mana it's ridiculous.  I started out with 2, and eventually bumped all the way up to 4 because they were worth having and the 0 Forest draws never came up.

I can't imagine cutting a Wirewood Symbiote though.  I'm not sure I'd cut an Elvish Visionary either.  If you're adding more mana to the deck, shouldn't you cut mana cards and not draw cards?

[JACO]

When I tested Legacy Elves, Gaea's Cradle was straight-up the card I most wanted to play on Turn 2.  It easily allows you to put 6-8 power onto the table with an average hand.  Normally on turn 2 you can only make one or two creatures.  Cradle gives you so much mana it's ridiculous.  I started out with 2, and eventually bumped all the way up to 4 because they were worth having and the 0 Forest draws never came up.

I can't imagine cutting a Wirewood Symbiote though.  I'm not sure I'd cut an Elvish Visionary either.  If you're adding more mana to the deck, shouldn't you cut mana cards and not draw cards?

The problem with Legacy Elves, and why it bears no comparison to Vintage Elves, is the lack of Skullclamp. Skullclamp is like the second best card in this deck.

I've put Cradle through the paces enough to know that it is at least worth talking about.  My initial list didn't have it, as I stated in the article (I was running MD Thoughtseize), and it was far and away the card my playtest partners asked about the most.

Gaea's Cradle is just straight up unnecessary. It forces mulligans that you would otherwise keep (whereas if your 1 land hand was a Forest, you'd be fine, but Cradle just screws you). Making mana is usually not a problem for the deck, and that's all that Cradle does. Consistency and drawing the best cards are the problem, as well as the ability to keep going off once you have begun your attempt (via Skullclamp or Glimpse of Nature). Putting more crap in the deck (Cradle and subsequently Crop Rotation) reduces your odds of successfully going off when you are in mid-combo trying to continue. This doesn't matter when you're blowing your opponent out, but when the game is very tight and you're struggling to draw business in a tournament scenario this becomes more apparent. This is what I meant by my comment. People that haven't played enough under a stressing situation with the deck don't understand why you don't need or want Cradle. This is why all of your opponents (and even myself when I first tackled the deck) will wonder about Cradle.

I'm just trying to help you (or anybody that picks up the deck) out. Owen and I both came to the same conclusion about the card, so I'm just trying to save you some work (and potential tournament headaches).

[voltron00x]

When I tested Legacy Elves, Gaea's Cradle was straight-up the card I most wanted to play on Turn 2.  It easily allows you to put 6-8 power onto the table with an average hand.  Normally on turn 2 you can only make one or two creatures.  Cradle gives you so much mana it's ridiculous.  I started out with 2, and eventually bumped all the way up to 4 because they were worth having and the 0 Forest draws never came up.

I can't imagine cutting a Wirewood Symbiote though.  I'm not sure I'd cut an Elvish Visionary either.  If you're adding more mana to the deck, shouldn't you cut mana cards and not draw cards?

The problem with Legacy Elves, and why it bears no comparison to Vintage Elves, is the lack of Skullclamp. Skullclamp is like the second best card in this deck.

I've put Cradle through the paces enough to know that it is at least worth talking about.  My initial list didn't have it, as I stated in the article (I was running MD Thoughtseize), and it was far and away the card my playtest partners asked about the most.

Gaea's Cradle is just straight up unnecessary. It forces mulligans that you would otherwise keep (whereas if your 1 land hand was a Forest, you'd be fine, but Cradle just screws you). Making mana is usually not a problem for the deck, and that's all that Cradle does. Consistency and drawing the best cards are the problem, as well as the ability to keep going off once you have begun your attempt (via Skullclamp or Glimpse of Nature). Putting more crap in the deck (Cradle and subsequently Crop Rotation) reduces your odds of successfully going off when you are in mid-combo trying to continue. This doesn't matter when you're blowing your opponent out, but when the game is very tight and you're struggling to draw business in a tournament scenario this becomes more apparent. This is what I meant by my comment. People that haven't played enough under a stressing situation with the deck don't understand why you don't need or want Cradle. This is why all of your opponents (and even myself when I first tackled the deck) will wonder about Cradle.

I'm just trying to help you (or anybody that picks up the deck) out. Owen and I both came to the same conclusion about the card, so I'm just trying to save you some work (and potential tournament headaches).

A couple things here...

Please understand that I am NOT cutting Forests for Cradle.  I have the exact same mana base as the list Rich posted PLUS one Cradle.  Any hand I draw that has just a Cradle would still have had ZERO MANA if it were the list you advocate, so that argument is totally irrelevant.

I started out with the base list, and was unhappy with Visionary and felt like 4 Symbiotes was excessive.  So, we added 3 Thoughtseize main, which opens up room in the SB.  However, Thoughtseize was surprisingly ineffective in game 1 against Tezzeret, and since (at the time) that deck made up 40%+ of the meta, we moved it back to the SB.  In its place, we added 3 cards to help make sure when we hit the combo, it was successful:  Fastbond, Cradle, and E. Witness.  What I suggest in my article is that in place of Fastbond and Cradle, it might be better to run Vamp and Demonic to make sure you can find Clamp / Glimpse, or that Time Walk and Recall might be worthwhile because they just up the power level so much (and, fun fact, you hit 14 blue sources just by adding one Tropical Island).  

Visionary just always felt so awful unless I had Symbiote, yet Symbiote is my least favorite creature in the deck.  I'd rather cut down on that package (which isn't as good without Hivemaster - the Extended version could get away with this by grinding away against control and mid-range decks with Hivemaster tokens and incremental draw from Visionary, and there's no time for that nonsense in Vintage) and just run, you know, better cards.

My list also doesn't have any Crop Rotations.  I actually wrote the article before the B&R list went up.  If you've gone back and tested Cradle with multiple Crop Rots since 6/20, then that's great.  I haven't, so I can't make an informed statement about whether that's good or not.  I don't FEEL like the list, as it is, really NEEDS that stuff, but I certainly see the appeal.  If you have a Clamp out and crop rot into a Cradle with 3-4 guys, you should win on the spot.  That's a good reason to try out that package of cards.  It doesn't mean that its necessary or better, just something different that, on paper, seems like it might be worth a try.  Any testing done prior to 6/20 probably involved multiple Cradles and not multiple Crop Rots, and that's a huge difference (as I'm sure you know).

You say "making mana isn't a problem", but playing Cradle as your second land gives you the mana to win with Clamp on the spot, even with a hand that otherwise has a suboptimal mix of creatures.  That's one reason why we have the one in the deck - in many ways, its Black Lotus #2.  The other reason was the Fastbond.  If you resolve Fastbond and then hit Cradle, you can win even if you're very low on life.  This is a corner case but came up a few times.

Anusien:  JACO is on-point re: the Legacy version.  The formats aren't even close to comparable and I know you know this.  Wirewood Hivemaster is completely unnecessary in Vintage.  Its too slow and just a do-nothing card in the deck, which already has plenty of Clamp targets once you begin to go off.  With unrestricted Crop Rot, you would never want to run 4 Cradles, for any reason.  The entire Chord / Hivemaster / Visionary / Symbiote package is suspect in Vintage, which is why I've excised the deck of all but 3 Symbiotes because they still have value (specifically, bouncing a Quirion is very powerful) - Rich & Owen and co had already removed all but 4 Symbiotes and 2 Visionary.  Further, the reason I want to add more mana cards is to make the Skullclamp engine more effective and faster, which is the valid reason for taking a look at Cradle.  It amps up Clamp to the nth degree.

[JACO]

I started out with the base list, and was unhappy with Visionary and felt like 4 Symbiotes was excessive.  So, we added 3 Thoughtseize main, which opens up room in the SB.  However, Thoughtseize was surprisingly ineffective in game 1 against Tezzeret, and since (at the time) that deck made up 40%+ of the meta, we moved it back to the SB.  In its place, we added 3 cards to help make sure when we hit the combo, it was successful:  Fastbond, Cradle, and E. Witness.  What I suggest in my article is that in place of Fastbond and Cradle, it might be better to run Vamp and Demonic to make sure you can find Clamp / Glimpse, or that Time Walk and Recall might be worthwhile because they just up the power level so much (and, fun fact, you hit 14 blue sources just by adding one Tropical Island).

This is interesting. In Owen's original list (mono-green) he ran Cradle and a single Eternal Witness, and eventually cut both. I recommended he try Fastbond, but ultimately we came to the same conclusion about Fastbond that we did about Cradle, and cut it for the same reasons.

If you have a Clamp out and crop rot into a Cradle with 3-4 guys, you should win on the spot.  That's a good reason to try out that package of cards.

Think about this statement for a minute. If you have an active Skullclamp out with 3-4 Elves (which would also mean at least one land), you should also win without the aid of Cradle. Making mana and draw cards are all the deck does, so you have both parts of the equation without the need for Cradle.

The other reason Cradle is a liability is the presence of Wasteland. This is the same reason Owen ran mono-green and not green/black or green/blue. You aren't susceptible to Wasteland on your duals or Cradle, nor are you susceptible to Stifle on your fetchlands (if you don't play any). The benefits of running a second color are arguably negligible. With black you're basically looking at Thoughtseize (and possibly Demonic/Vamp), but Thoughtseize is easily replaced by Xantid Swarm and Regal Force (if you feel you need more against Blue, which is actually one of the deck's best matchups in my testing). To me that's just not worth opening yourself up to Wasteland, Stifle, and possibly additional mulligans.

PS. Regarding Symbiote, it might seem like it sucks, but 4 is unfortunately a necessary evil. Bouncing those extra Elves really matters to draw extra cards when digging or trying to go off, and it can protect your assets from removal.

[voltron00x]

I started out with the base list, and was unhappy with Visionary and felt like 4 Symbiotes was excessive.  So, we added 3 Thoughtseize main, which opens up room in the SB.  However, Thoughtseize was surprisingly ineffective in game 1 against Tezzeret, and since (at the time) that deck made up 40%+ of the meta, we moved it back to the SB.  In its place, we added 3 cards to help make sure when we hit the combo, it was successful:  Fastbond, Cradle, and E. Witness.  What I suggest in my article is that in place of Fastbond and Cradle, it might be better to run Vamp and Demonic to make sure you can find Clamp / Glimpse, or that Time Walk and Recall might be worthwhile because they just up the power level so much (and, fun fact, you hit 14 blue sources just by adding one Tropical Island).

This is interesting. In Owen's original list (mono-green) he ran Cradle and a single Eternal Witness, and eventually cut both. I recommended he try Fastbond, but ultimately we came to the same conclusion about Fastbond that we did about Cradle, and cut it for the same reasons.

If you have a Clamp out and crop rot into a Cradle with 3-4 guys, you should win on the spot.  That's a good reason to try out that package of cards.

Think about this statement for a minute. If you have an active Skullclamp out with 3-4 Elves (which would also mean at least one land), you should also win without the aid of Cradle. Making mana and draw cards are all the deck does, so you have both parts of the equation without the need for Cradle.

The other reason Cradle is a liability is the presence of Wasteland. This is the same reason Owen ran mono-green and not green/black or green/blue. You aren't susceptible to Wasteland on your duals or Cradle, nor are you susceptible to Stifle on your fetchlands (if you don't play any). The benefits of running a second color are arguably negligible. With black you're basically looking at Thoughtseize (and possibly Demonic/Vamp), but Thoughtseize is easily replaced by Xantid Swarm and Regal Force (if you feel you need more against Blue, which is actually one of the deck's best matchups in my testing). To me that's just not worth opening yourself up to Wasteland, Stifle, and possibly additional mulligans.

PS. Regarding Symbiote, it might seem like it sucks, but 4 is unfortunately a necessary evil. Bouncing those extra Elves really matters to draw extra cards when digging or trying to go off, and it can protect your assets from removal.

I'll grant you Stifle, which thankfully sees minimal play, but Wasteland is the least of this deck's worries.  Quirion Ranger does an excellent job making you Wasteland-proof more often than not.

Cradle is rarely going to be Wasteland target, since you pretty much win as soon as it hits play and taps for mana.

When I say that it powers up skullclamp, I'm talking turn 2.  Consider:

T1:  Forest, Fyndhorn Elves
T2:  Tap forest, play Q. Ranger.  Tap Elves, bounce forest, tap Elves.  Play any two 1-mana creatures.  Play Gaea's Cradle and tap for GGGG.  Use 1 G for Clamp.  You now have 3 mana floating and plenty of elves to clamp off, generally a turn faster than you would if you didn't have Cradle.

This line of play is easy enough to pull off if you have a Heritage in your opener, but otherwise is much harder.  The reason people suggest adding Crop Rot is that it makes this line of play considerably easier to pull off, which I get.  I'm not saying its necessarily better, just that I get it.

As I posted above, there is going to be a push/pull between cards that find the combo, cards that enable your combo, and cards that support you mid-combo.  I think most people will vary in how they weigh their options in these categories, and honestly the right decision is going to be somewhat metagame dependant rather than "set in stone" by one person's testing or tournament experience.

Don't misunderstand what I'm saying - Rich and Owen are both considerably better players than I am, so I'm not discounting the conclusions you've all reached.  I'm just saying that depending on the meta you're playing against, the list they determined for whatever events they played the deck aren't always going to be the absolute best list in every tournament.

[Troy_Costisick]

Just wanted to say I liked your article.  I plan on studying it carefully.  I plan on building an Elves deck in the near future.

Peace,

-Troy

[nataz]

Excellent article. I really liked how you tied in the budget aspect into getting new players into type I. Ditto on how you highlighted how the elf deck feels "broken" compared to most budget decks.

I'm really enjoying you as an addition to the vintage writers scene.

[JACO]

I'll grant you Stifle, which thankfully sees minimal play, but Wasteland is the least of this deck's worries.  Quirion Ranger does an excellent job making you Wasteland-proof more often than not.

Cradle is rarely going to be Wasteland target, since you pretty much win as soon as it hits play and taps for mana.

When I say that it powers up skullclamp, I'm talking turn 2.  Consider:

T1:  Forest, Fyndhorn Elves
T2:  Tap forest, play Q. Ranger.  Tap Elves, bounce forest, tap Elves.  Play any two 1-mana creatures.  Play Gaea's Cradle and tap for GGGG.  Use 1 G for Clamp.  You now have 3 mana floating and plenty of elves to clamp off, generally a turn faster than you would if you didn't have Cradle.

I understand how easy Cradle makes it to go off (provided you have one of your combo pieces), but my point is that it's not really necessary, and you should be able to get by without it. The deck mulligans a fair amount, and at this point I'm looking to shave off mulligan percentages where I can. Eliminating boom-bust cards like Fastbond, Witness, and Cradle are the only way I've found to make the deck more consistent and mulligan less. Similarly, with Crop Rotation you often have a dead card, or something that can't be Skullclamped or cycled with Glimpse when you're trying to go off.

As I posted above, there is going to be a push/pull between cards that find the combo, cards that enable your combo, and cards that support you mid-combo.  I think most people will vary in how they weigh their options in these categories, and honestly the right decision is going to be somewhat metagame dependant rather than "set in stone" by one person's testing or tournament experience.

This is certainly true, and especially true of sideboard considerations, where many of your tougher/toss-up matchups really need to be addressed.

Also, thank you for taking the time to write a Vintage article and have it published. I have had to take a break from the few I wrote due to work duties and some other things I have to focus on currently. It's nice to have more thoughtful Eternal writers around.

[voltron00x]

All - thanks for the positive feedback!  I will definitely try to focus more on non-Oath Vintage in the future...

Everyone else on the site is beating M10 to death, and I'd rather draft triple Homelands than play in a 318-person Standard PTQ, so there should be a lot of Vintage coming from me over the next few weeks.

[emidln]

Some random thoughts:

Is Elvish Visionary actually better here than Multani's Alcolyte (GG, 2/1, echo, CIPT, draw a card)? The latter has echo, but we're not expecting to pass the turn very often. When the deck does pass the turn, it's often due to sputtering out of creatures. It seems in this case that the echo paid next turn could be well-worth the extra one power when you move into the red zone (assuming you're still alive). The GG vs 1G doesn't seem to matter at all since all the deck can produce is G or a splash color off a green dual.

Is Visionary/Alcolyte even necessary? When I was looking for room to fit in blue (Walk/Recall) and Fastbond, I ended up with 1 Wirewood Symbiote which made these guys a lot less appealing. Without them, we seem to sometimes run into an issue of mana + summoner's pact quite a bit, which would make Regal Force a good addition.

This deck often runs out of green to keep the combo going unless you have a Sentinel/Summoner's Pact-heavy opening top 10 or so. Your last green ends up being clamp mana or something that might only turn on one Birchlore (via a Sentinel + the guy you cast). It seems like some number of ESG (drawn naturally or off spare Pacts) and/or Fastbond can help here a lot (I ended up adding ESGs so as to stop fizzling and it worked).

With a blue splash for Time Walk, are both Grapeshot and Eternal Witness necessary? Can we get by with just two ways to win now?

[voltron00x]

Some random thoughts:

Is Elvish Visionary actually better here than Multani's Alcolyte (GG, 2/1, echo, CIPT, draw a card)? The latter has echo, but we're not expecting to pass the turn very often. When the deck does pass the turn, it's often due to sputtering out of creatures. It seems in this case that the echo paid next turn could be well-worth the extra one power when you move into the red zone (assuming you're still alive). The GG vs 1G doesn't seem to matter at all since all the deck can produce is G or a splash color off a green dual.

Is Visionary/Alcolyte even necessary? When I was looking for room to fit in blue (Walk/Recall) and Fastbond, I ended up with 1 Wirewood Symbiote which made these guys a lot less appealing. Without them, we seem to sometimes run into an issue of mana + summoner's pact quite a bit, which would make Regal Force a good addition.

This deck often runs out of green to keep the combo going unless you have a Sentinel/Summoner's Pact-heavy opening top 10 or so. Your last green ends up being clamp mana or something that might only turn on one Birchlore (via a Sentinel + the guy you cast). It seems like some number of ESG (drawn naturally or off spare Pacts) and/or Fastbond can help here a lot (I ended up adding ESGs so as to stop fizzling and it worked).

With a blue splash for Time Walk, are both Grapeshot and Eternal Witness necessary? Can we get by with just two ways to win now?

If you run Time Walk, you can probably cut Eternal Witness.

I haven't been a fan of ESG at all.  There is almost always a better Pact target as long as you're planning ahead correctly, and you don't want to use them to replace actual lands.  I'm also not a fan of Visionary or similar cards, but that's just my preference.  I'm not saying they're actively bad, just that I think they're the worst cards in the original list.

Also, as much as I dog Symbiote, I think I'd be hesitant to go below 3, because the "bounce forest, untap guy, bounce quirion with symbiote, replay quirion, draw off glimpse, bounce another forest to untap another guy" series of plays is really, really good.

[gkraigher]

i built this deck for the heck of it.  i tested it with wirewood hivemaster and earthcraft though.  

all in all the deck seems really weak and i doubt its chances in a big, diverse tournament.  

i tested the deck with 1 crop rotation but with multilpe gaea's cradles before the unrestriction.  i loved crop rotations overall effect of being able to generate gobs of mana.  so the deck should improve if you increase the number of crop rotations you run.

[voltron00x]

This just won a 31-person Vintage tournament in NYC: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38452.new#new

Ryan Fisher – Elves!

4 Llanowar Elf
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Birchlore Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Eternal Witness
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Viridian Zealot
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Skullclamp
3 Summoner’s Pact
1 Grapeshot
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Fastbond
1 Gaea’s Cradle
1 Demonic Tutor

SB
2 Krosan Grip
4 Thoughtseize
2 Seeds of Innocence
3 Pithing Needle
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Vampiric Tutor

Some interesting decisions here... I'm surprised at the cutting of 1 Fyndhorn Elf, and it feels 1 land short to me also.  Still, its awesome to see this deck taking down a 30+ person tournament.

[Cunningbeaver]

Those hivemasters were symbiotes.  I'm almost positive its a typo.

I don't know if Ryan posts here or has an account. Again I'm pretty sure it was symbiotes and not hivemasters.

[voltron00x]

Those hivemasters were symbiotes.  I'm almost positive its a typo.

I don't know if Ryan posts here or has an account. Again I'm pretty sure it was symbiotes and not hivemasters.

That would make much more sense...

[MirariKnight]

I lost to this deck in the finals of that tournament and I have to say I really underestimated it. I did no prep against it at all, vaguely considered running Engineered PLague in my board for other reasons but of course I didn't. The list was really solid.

[BruiZar]

The reason why I believe this deck is so strong is because you have a strong plan B. If you fizzle, just go the aggro route. Also, you aren't so dependent on your graveyard the way ichorid is. A swarm of aggro is actually pretty hard to hate out, since most people don't really run mass removal besides maybe a singleton pyroclasm in the board.

[xouman]

I have tested this deck (mono green only) and I must say I love it. I have tested a couple of cards beyond those described with some kind of success:

-Concordant Crossroads: I played the deck with 4 llanowar and 4 fyndorn, and with concordant they work nice. If you have played skullclamp instead glimpse, it's easier to have mana, and you can play infinite spells with just 1 llanowar/fydorn and 1 symbiote. Plus, you can attack in the same turn you dropped creatures (with sentinels in play, most creatures will be untapped). No always is useful, though.

-Manamorphose: birchlore is enough to play Grapeshot, but what if your opponent extirpates it? it's a free spell with no lose of card. Plus, if you play with black, it's easier to have black mana (or even blue going powered).


And I have a question: Is elvish champion an option to play post sideboard? krosan is nice for lots of things, included engineered plague, but champion is also nice against plague, better against darkblast and marginally better against creatures decks and reinforces aggro side of the deck. I'm not sure, haven't tested by myself.

[voltron00x]

I have tested this deck (mono green only) and I must say I love it. I have tested a couple of cards beyond those described with some kind of success:

-Concordant Crossroads: I played the deck with 4 llanowar and 4 fyndorn, and with concordant they work nice. If you have played skullclamp instead glimpse, it's easier to have mana, and you can play infinite spells with just 1 llanowar/fydorn and 1 symbiote. Plus, you can attack in the same turn you dropped creatures (with sentinels in play, most creatures will be untapped). No always is useful, though.

-Manamorphose: birchlore is enough to play Grapeshot, but what if your opponent extirpates it? it's a free spell with no lose of card. Plus, if you play with black, it's easier to have black mana (or even blue going powered).


And I have a question: Is elvish champion an option to play post sideboard? krosan is nice for lots of things, included engineered plague, but champion is also nice against plague, better against darkblast and marginally better against creatures decks and reinforces aggro side of the deck. I'm not sure, haven't tested by myself.

Crossroads is discussed briefly, above.  It isn't bad in the Fastbond slot, but I like Fastbond better.  The upside (tapping mana elves immediately) is somewhat nullified by the fact that the mana engine of Heritage Druid already allows those Elves to tap for mana.

Manamorphose seems ok, but I don't think you have any extra pieces to cut to slot it in.  If you're worried about the red mana, adding a Taiga is probably a better move.

Elvish Champion is probably decent in some match-ups (especially Fish), but the one-of bullets are much worse in this deck than they were in Extended.  The Extended version also ran Chord and therefore had more tutors to spare, whereas this list needs to make sure it is tutoring up the engine pieces.

[oneofchaos]

Since i'm headed out to school I don't need to keep any secret tech so I will post the elves list I have been running lately and have fallen in love with.

Lands
    6  Forest
    3  Bayou

// Creatures
    1  Eternal Witness
    1  Regal Force
    4  Quirion Ranger
    3 [EVG] Wirewood Symbiote
    4  Nettle Sentinel
    4  Birchlore Rangers
    4  Heritage Druid
    3 [EVG] Llanowar Elves
    4  Fyndhorn Elves

// Spells
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Grapeshot
    4  Summoner's Pact
    4  Skullclamp
    4  Land Grant
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Fastbond
    4  Glimpse of Nature
    3  Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Seal of Primordium
SB: 4  Xantid Swarm
SB: 1  Thoughtseize
SB: 2  Viridian Shaman
SB: 2  Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [DDC] Duress
SB: 1  War Mammoth

The maindeck thoughtseize are just awesome.  Questionable choices probably include the land grants which I find are also just awesome.  Why not play a card that will untap your nettle sentinels for free AND get a forest/bayou?  It works deliciously with fastbond and I have very rarely lost due to having it countered. 

The sideboard is extremly experimental and thrown together.  Xantids are awesome vs drains as you can go off long style.  Extra duress effects are pinpoint removal against combo.  Shaman/Seal is artifact removal against stax (both clear chalice at 1).  Pithing needles are just there for when you need them, and I wanted a war mammoth in my sideboard just in case Travis ever wanted to play this decker.  It's also tutorable with the summoner's pact so it's clearly awesome.  What is better than a giant mammoth leading a horde of elves into combat?

[xouman]

9 lands is not *a bit* too few? land grant is good but i'm not sure if it's enough... can you keep a hand with no lands and land grant? I don't think so. But a hand with 1 forest may be worth to keep often, with a couple of llanowar/fyndorn