I'd like some advise

[JoostP]

Hey there,

My name is Joost van der Pol.
I've played magic for over half my life (12 years now).
The madness mechanic dragged me into competitive magic.
For the last few years I've played competitive Legacy, from Zoo to ANT to all sorts of Threshold builts to Landstill variants, I've played it all.
When you get a taste of power, you keep longing for more.
When I had the chance to get a set of power, bazaars, LoA, Vault, Drains I didn't hesitate at all.
I immediately bought the cards needed to play some serious Vintage.
And wow.. I love the raw power of the format.

I've been experimenting with some of the higher tier Vintage decks.
A bit later I started working on my own ANT-like decklist.
My experience with the Legacy variant of the deck was actually really helpful.
After testing for a few weeks I decided to give the deck a go at a friendly local 10-proxy Vintage tournament. (ended up winning that one, decklists can be found here: http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Vintage+Achterhoek )

Even though I won that tournament, I found out that my list was (although very explosive) far from optimal.
I missed the protection of Drain and FoW.

I'd like to get some advice on the ANT-list I've been playing.
Is it viable?
Could it be viable if I dedicate more time to further develop the list?
Would it be smarter to play a deck like Drain Tendrils, something like Steel City Vault or perhaps a regular Tezzeret-like deck?
Maybe a Dredge list would be a good option?

I have the necessary experience, cardpool (and time) to pick up either of these decks.

I'm unsure what deck would do best in an unknown meta.
Even though I do have some sense of what the better vintage decks are, I do not have enough experience in Vintage to make proper metagame calls.

Thanks in advance,
Joost

PS.
Please excuse me for my English, I'm aware of the fact that my grammar should be better.

[Marske]

@Joost,
You'll find a lot of Dutchies on this board or on Themanacrypt (the Dutch brother of TMD) That being said I've played a lot of Storm and pioneered some of the first ANT lists. You'll find a lot of stuff about it if you browse these forums a bit.

Currently there are a lot of discussions going on about DT, TPS, Tezzerent and even SCV. The best thing you can do is just get involved into the Dutch community (PM me for details) and start reading and discussing.

Good luck from a fellow Dutchie !

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Unless you expect a lot of Stax, ANT is a strong choice; you have decent matchups against Oath, Tezz, Fish, and Beats, and probably one of the best pre-board matchups against Dredge.  The Stax matchup is, of course, rough, but not entirely unwinnable.  I definitely wouldn't want to face it more than once in a tournament, though, unless I won every die roll.

As for your build, I would make the following suggestions:
-1 Merchant Scroll (1U to get either Ancestral Recall, Gush, or Chain of Vapor isn't very strong is this deck)
-2 Daze (Great for turn 1 kills on the play but overall too conditional and not good for disrupting your opponent--just like Pact of Negation)
-1 Gush (Requires 2 Islands in play, thus hard for the deck's mana base to support, and it's not even that spectacular)
-1 Personal Tutor (Sorcery Speed and limit of targets makes this weak)
-3 Silence (Effectively makes Ad Nauseam cost 6 mana instead of 5)

+1 Ad Nauseam (You want to maximize your chances of drawing this in your opening hand)
+1 Necropotence (Not the best synergy with Ad Nauseam but with all the rituals, 3x Tendrils, Chain of Vapor and Will it is too good not to run)
+1 Tinker
+1 Memory Jar (Tinker/Jar has been very strong in my testing as more bombs giving you an alternate way to go off, and it doesn't have the risk of Wheel/Twister)
+4 Thoughtseize (2 Life loss is a drawback but it is worth it.  Thoughtseize is easily the best disruption for this deck besides Duress--I want to see Duress/Thoughtseize in almost every hand to clear the way for my bombs.  Unlike Silence it is on colour and you can play this turn 1 to set up for turn 2 if you don't have lots of broken mana)

(of course I would change the mana base accordingly: -2 Tundra, -2 Flooded Strand, +3 Bloodstained Mire, +1 Swamp.  I would also add 2-3 Chrome Mox, cutting either Cabal Rituals or off-colour moxes as you prefer, in order to increase the chance of drawing coloured mana off Ad Nauseam when tapped out with no land drop left)

This may seem like it would increase the average CMC a lot, but it really only increases it by 0.083, which is not really that significant (for every 10 cards you flip on average you will lose 0.83 more life).  Of course, there will be times when you flip 2 or 3 Ad Nauseam/Jar, but this is very rare, and as you can't really do anything about it I think it's just something you accept when you decide to play the deck.  The increased density of bombs reduces mulligans (thus giving you more cards to begin with), improves topdecks, helps fight through counters, and thus actually makes the deck more consistent.

For your sideboard I think you need to dedicate more slots to the Stax matchup--I would say you want at least 1 Swamp, 1 Island, and 2-3 Hurkyl's Recall.  I also think that you've overloaded on hate for the Dredge matchup--I have found this matchup to be extremely favorable, and I only run 4 Yixlid Jailor in the sideboard for them (Crypts get hit by Chalice at 0 which is already very strong against you; Leylines are the hate they expect and thus usually board for, and the 4 CMC hurts off Ad Nauseam).  You might also want to consider 1 Bayou+3-4 Xantid Swarms against control, and 2-3 Slaughter Pacts against Fish/Beats.

[JoostP]

Thanks for the replies so far.
While it is true that Thoughtseize does clear the way to go off, the same is still true for Silence.
I'm still not convinced that Silence should be cut.
Silence can be used as an alternate Time Walk.

The Dazes have only been in my list during that particular tournament, they were heavily experimental and there hasn't been a single time where I didn't want the Daze to be ANY other random card in my deck.

Chain of Vapor proved to be very strong against decks that pack Null Rod, it's also a highly reliable way to get more mana out of my moxen.

Gandalf pointed out an awesome way to get on-colour mana by adding a few Chrome Moxes.
I really like that idea.
I still like to give Silence a go, but to support it ill switch to some Scrublands instead of Tundras in order to stay on-colour.

My deck would roughly look like this:

Instants

• 4 Ad Nauseam
• 1 Ancestral Recal
• 1 Brainstorm
• 3 Cabal Ritual
• 2 Chain of Vapor
• 4 Dark Ritual
• 1 Demonic Consultation
• 1 Mystical Tutor
• 3 Silence
• 1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries

• 1 Tinker
• 1 Demonic Tutor
• 4 Duress
• 1 Ponder
• 3 Tendrils of Agony
• 1 Time Walk
• 1 Yawgmoth's Will

Artifacts

• 1 Black Lotus
• 1 Lotus Petal
• 1 Mana Crypt
• 1 Mana Vault
• 1 Mox Emerald
• 1 Mox Ruby
• 1 Mox Pearl
• 1 Mox Sapphire
• 1 Mox Jet
• 3 Chrome Mox
• 1 Sol Ring
• 1 Memory Jar

Lands

• 2 Bloodstained Mire
• 4 Polluted Delta
• 2 Swamp
• 2 Scrubland
• 3 Underground Sea

I haven't decided on the sideboard yet.
Any comments are welcome.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The Stax matchup is, of course, rough, but not entirely unwinnable.  I definitely wouldn't want to face it more than once in a tournament, though, unless I won every die roll.

At ICBM day 2, I watched Brandon Adams *rape* Vroman's board with Serenity and survive a Jester's Cap...and then go on to win the game and match.  I strongly recommend his ANT build, which you can find in the tournament results forum.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

The Stax matchup is, of course, rough, but not entirely unwinnable.  I definitely wouldn't want to face it more than once in a tournament, though, unless I won every die roll.

At ICBM day 2, I watched Brandon Adams *rape* Vroman's board with Serenity and survive a Jester's Cap...and then go on to win the game and match.  I strongly recommend his ANT build, which you can find in the tournament results forum.

Vroman's build didn't run Sphere of Resistance, which is a beating.  Spheres not only make it impossible to go off, but also difficult to even resolve your hate/answers against them (like Serenity).  The worst matchup with this deck is against mono-R 9 Sphere--I have tested it extensively and it is absolutely brutal.  Even bulds with only 4x Sphere, Chalice, and Wire can pose a lot of problems for ANT.  The main weakness is that on the draw you are basically defenseless against Stax--any decent opening draw followed up by locks is easily enough to crush you: this is the price you pay for not running Fow.  If you expect a lot of Stax, I would play TPS instead, that way you have a chance to win even on the draw since you can FOW their first play and then go off.

Besides making 'going off' cost 6 mana (and not being able to be casted off rituals) Silence is only really good against decks with Counterspells, not against Stax or Beats (if you use it to "time walk" them they can still Waste your land which hurts).  I would probably run Pact of Negation over Silence, because it is free; however, I played with Pacts for a while, and while the protected turn 1 kill was nice, I found that they often sat in my hand when I didn't have Ad Nauseam or couldn't cast it, and there were a lot of times when I needed to disrupt my opponent to buy time, and Pact was useless where a Thoughtseize could have won me the game.  I switched to Thoughtseizes a while ago and have never looked back.  This is why I don't think the silences are good in the deck.  

My understanding is that Silence/Chant was used in Legacy so you could cast it during upkeep, then if it resolves cast Rituals/crack Lion's Eye Diamond to float mana into draw step and cast Ad Nauseam; however, with the new rules this is no longer possible.

The other alternative that I would probably prefer to Silence is Xantid Swarm.  It also splits the mana up over two turns since you can go Turn 1 Swarm Turn 2 Ad Naus with 5 mana.  Swarm also protects all your spells for the rest of the game, including tutors/set up spells over multiple turns.  So, against control it is a serious threat.  The addition of Green also opens up a possible transformational sideboard against Stax where you bring in Goyfs +Negators or something (possible also Dark Confidants)--if you catch them unprepared you can steal the game aggro-style while they are overloaded with Storm hate.  The only problem is that this takes a lot of slots and is pretty much useless against other decks (though I suppose you could try to catch a Control player off guard this way, too, if you expect Canonist/Arcane Lab/Duress, etc).  Even if you don't go for the transformational board, Green still gives you access to Oxidize, which can also be good against Stax, especially if you make your 2-3 non-delta fetches Verdant Catacombs and include a single Forest in the board.

In any case your updated build looks a lot better to me.  I can see the Silences being better than Duress/Thoughtseize when you go for Memory Jar, though that is pretty much the only time.

[AmbivalentDuck]

@Gandalf: Thoughts on Marsh Flats and bringing in a Plains post-board vs Stax?

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

@Gandalf: Thoughts on Marsh Flats and bringing in a Plains post-board vs Stax?

It is a possible option, but I don't think Serenity is as effective against Stax decks running Sphere of Resistance, simply because it is hard to cast (that is, when they have enough locks in play to make it worth casting).  Hurkyl's Recall is instant and on-colour and serves the same function.  Unfortunately, I have found that Hurkyl's alone is often not enough against Stax.  Oxidize is great because it is a 1 mana instant that takes out whatever lock component is stopping you from casting Hurkyl's (Sphere, Chalice, Wire).  Taking out 1 lock in the early game is critical against Stax, to stop them from locking you out completely.  It also diversifies the CMC of your answers to help fight Chalice.

[AmbivalentDuck]

If the main problem is spheres...Engineered Explosives?  It always costs 2 regardless of the number of spheres in play.

[JoostP]

Explosives sound like a decent answer to spheres.

Over the last day I've extensively tested Xantid Swarms instead of Silence.
I must say that that really enlightened me, it really does help in many, many ways.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

If the main problem is spheres...Engineered Explosives?  It always costs 2 regardless of the number of spheres in play.

Explosives is still Sorcery speed, and would cost 4 total mana to kill 1-2 Spheres (doesn't work when Null Rod is in play, can sometimes be welded out).  I would much rather have something like Oxidize to support Hurkyl's.

Over the last day I've extensively tested Xantid Swarms instead of Silence.
I must say that that really enlightened me, it really does help in many, many ways.

I'm glad to hear that they have been working out for you.  Another good thing about Swarm is that it simplifies the play decisions for the deck.  Making the correct decision with Duress/Thoughtseize can often be quite difficult, while with resolved Swarm you can simply ignore your opponent and go about goldfishing them (though of course you unfortunately do no gain the addition information you do with discard).

 One thing to keep in mind though is that control players may board in Fire/Ice or Darkblast, so you can't really rely on them as much in games 2 and 3.  That said, they are still good, because forcing the control player to have to answer both creatures and spells puts them under a lot of pressure and helps keep them on the defensive, which is exactly where you want them.  You need to either force through a bomb quickly before they get their defences up, or overwhelm their defences by exhausting their resources.  If it gets to the point where they can actually develop their own game plan, you are pretty much toast.

[JoostP]

Well, if you have to cast and activate Explosives during the same turn when like 2 spheres are in play Hurkyl's Recall might still be the better choice.
Oxidize only answers 1 single lockpiece and is vulnerable to chalice, is that really worth it?

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Oxidize only answers 1 single lockpiece and is vulnerable to chalice, is that really worth it?

Anything you you run from 0-2cc is vulnerable to Chalice.  Since your main solution is Hurkyl's, it is good to have answers at 1 mana in case they Chalice for 2.  Chalice at 1 is scarier for your combo cards, but these are mostly useless if they have Spheres anyway--with Spheres they are more likely to chalice for 0, preventing you from playing moxes to break out of the lock, or 2, preventing you from casting Hurkyl's.  In either case, Oxidize is a great solution.  Paying G to destroy their most dangerous lock piece at instant speed is certainly worth it if your mana base is already running Green.  Often taking out 1 lock (Sphere, Chalice, Wire) can make the difference between getting completely locked down and unable to Hurkyl's, or breaking out and going off. 

This is why in the sideboard of my U/B build I run Annul, which is certainly inferior to Oxidize because it cannot answer locks in play and is therefore pretty horrible on the draw--it is simply the best 1 mana answer that is on colour (Chain of Vapor is only useful when you are about to go off).  If I were to run Green I would definitely pack 3-4 Oxidize in my sb.  I suggest that you try testing this against Stax and see how it plays--I think you will find them quite useful.