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Author Topic: U/r Landstill  (Read 7296 times)
scifiantihero
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« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2009, 01:52:16 am »

Viper is probably unsupportable in this sort of deck.

Goyf generally works in any deck.  Landstill get's the benefit of always wanting enchantments in the graveyard too, while hating on every other kind of card the opponent can play.

Worth testing, I bet.
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TheJesus
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« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2009, 02:56:59 am »

It sounds like you are moving closer to a mono blue control or fish than land still which is fine.  Can you post your latest test list?
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Bera
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« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2009, 02:42:15 pm »

It sounds like you are moving closer to a mono blue control or fish than land still which is fine.  Can you post your latest test list?


I was thinking the list moved closer to fish/mono U but it still ran the standstill stuff so I wasn't sure what to call it.

24 Mana

4 Fetch
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
3 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
1 Barbarian Ring
1 LOA
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire

7 Creatures

4 Ophidian
3 Sower of temptation

29 Spells

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak
3 Stifle (Re added, cut mystical tutor, 1 Crucible and 1 Rack and Ruin)
3 Spell Pierce
4 Standstill
2 Fire/Ice
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Rebuild
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm

1 Artifact

1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard

3 Ravenous Trap
3 Repeal
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Rack and Ruin
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Fire/Ice
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« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2009, 02:46:31 pm »

It sounds like you are moving closer to a mono blue control or fish than land still which is fine.  Can you post your latest test list?


I was thinking the list moved closer to fish/mono U but it still ran the standstill stuff so I wasn't sure what to call it.

24 Mana

4 Fetch
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
3 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
1 Barbarian Ring
1 LOA
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire

7 Creatures

4 Ophidian
3 Sower of temptation

29 Spells

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak
3 Stifle (Re added, cut mystical tutor, 1 Crucible and 1 Rack and Ruin)
3 Spell Pierce
4 Standstill
2 Fire/Ice
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Rebuild
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm

1 Artifact

1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard

3 Ravenous Trap
3 Repeal
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Rack and Ruin
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Fire/Ice

This deck looks like it has no idea what it wants to be. Running Ophidian, with very few ways to get it down early, is a very poor idea. Your Standstill is also a very poor engine since you have very few ways to put any pressure at board parity. What incentive do you plan on giving your opponent to break it?

If you want to play with Ophidian, then run a UR Phid list and get rid of the Standstill strategy. You are trying to do two different things at once, which lack much needed synergy.
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Bera
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« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2009, 03:35:29 pm »

The incentive is break standstill or lose while manlands/creatures kill you. Ophidian is added pressure, speeds up the deck and gives you another card to use your drain mana on. The deck is just a landstill list that runs mana leak over null rod and has a few slots devoted to countering my meta game.
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« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2009, 04:27:15 pm »

The incentive is break standstill or lose while manlands/creatures kill you. Ophidian is added pressure, speeds up the deck and gives you another card to use your drain mana on. The deck is just a landstill list that runs mana leak over null rod and has a few slots devoted to countering my meta game.

I don't think you have addressed my question properly. I asked you:

What incentive does your opponent have to break Standstill when you are at board parity?

You replied: "The incentive is break standstill or lose while manlands/creatures kill you."

... but this is a very misguided response. Traditional UR Landstill decks are much more threatening at board parity, in that they run 7-8 manlands in comparison to your meager 4. Thus, they can consistently put pressure at board parity because they see their manlands more frequently. Your deck, in comparison, cannot mount pressure with any amount of consistency. That makes your Standstill very weak, since your Drain opponents can just wait you out and break the Standstill when it is convenient for them, as opposed to a time when it is advantageous for you.

What "creatures" are you referring to that make your Standstill a threat? Ophidians? Maybe I am misunderstanding, but if you mean to say that your plan is to resolve an Ophidian and then play Standstill, then your deck is, for lack of a better explanation,very flawed in its design. Standstill and Ophidian are different draw engines; they are NOT complimentary in any way. If you resolve Ophidian, you do not need Standstill, and vice-versa.

Can you please clarify what value Ophidian adds to your deck, and explain the inherent "dissynergy" between the cards you are using?
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"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." 
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Bera
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« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2009, 04:44:22 pm »

Ophidian is added pressure, another clock when you need it to be, and speeds up your game.

As for the "Creatures" I'm referring to: Sower in the fish MU and Ophidian in the control MU

 Standstill and Opidian are cards that are good on their own, the plan isn't to land Ophidian and a standstill, the plan is to land one of them and gain massive CA and draw your game winners, if you happen to have a standstill with Ophidian out, you give your opponent even more of a reason to break standstill.

I've been considering Augery Adept but the 3 toughness on ophidian is really nice.
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« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2009, 04:54:41 pm »

Ophidian is added pressure, another clock when you need it to be, and speeds up your game.

First of all, Landstill has never needed to "speed up its game". This is not one of the weaknesses of the deck, so I am not sure why you feel it is important to try to win more quickly. What you are doing is essentially taking a cake that is baking comfortably in the oven, and shoving it into a microwave. You are trying to accomplish something that is not necessary, and using the wrong tool in the process.

Ophidian cannot resolve with any degree of reliability before turn 3 in your particular build. That means that in the first 3 turns of the game, which are the most critical for the Landstill player, you are likely to have a dead draw in your hand. Standstill is NOT good on its own in your deck, because you cannot consistently put pressure at board parity. You have not addressed this criticism.

Your rebuttal contends that your individual draw engines are strong by themselves, but my contention is that they are both very weak because they are neither complimentary nor designed to have much synergy with the rest of your deck.

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"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." 
- Theodore Roosevelt
Bera
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« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2009, 08:08:10 pm »

The first three turns of the game aren't about landing threats, it's about playing defensive and countering their business spells, forcing them to get on the long game plan, once you've accomplished that, you drop an ophidian or standstill and begin refilling your hand while they rebuild at a slower rate.

Ophidian isn't really supposed to come down before turn three unless you get a nut draw of island lotus phid pierce or something like turn 1 drain setup.

The deck runs a decent amount of threats as it is, I could see adding the fourth factory and maybe the 2nd mutavault, the list already runs BRing though.

Speed up the game was probably a poor choice of words, something like "Ophidian keeps your hand topped off and full of business" is probably more accurate.

Ophidian is a very poweful card, especially when fire clears the way for him, I've ran him in MUC and a mono blue tez list, he's great in long games which is something that this list causes because it whittles down the opponent while keeping a handful of permission.

I don't think I have to argue standstill's power in a deck built around it as it has already proven itself.

What would you run in Ophidian's place? I could see cutting a few to increase man land count and possibly augury adept seeing how the only cards that are threats to it are pretty much the same as ophidian with a few exceptions.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 08:15:45 pm by Bera » Logged

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« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2009, 05:19:21 pm »

The first three turns of the game aren't about landing threats, it's about playing defensive and countering their business spells, forcing them to get on the long game plan

Quote
Ophidian isn't really supposed to come down before turn three unless you get a nut draw of island lotus phid pierce or something like turn 1 drain setup.

Ok, so we have established that you understand what the "fundamental turns" are for Landstill. Since you concede that Ophidian does not help you during those fundamental turns, why is it in the deck? What matchups does it improve? You have not been able to answer some very basic questions about its inclusion. The fact of the matter is that when Landstill survives to the late game, it wins an overwhelmingly large amount of the time. It does not need Ophidian once it reaches that stage. Ophidian is dead in the early game, mediocre in the mid game, and strong in the late game. Landstill is already strong in the late game without Ophidian, so you are not shoring up any weaknesses by including it. You have essentially added 4 dead draws to the deck.

Quote
The deck runs a decent amount of threats as it is, I could see adding the fourth factory and maybe the 2nd mutavault, the list already runs BRing though.

Barbarian ring is not a "threat". Landstill does not have "threats". The win conditions are all very poor. The reason that this is irrelevant is because they produce mana, and are generally meant to be used as "threats" once the game is already won. When Landstill wins, it often would be able to win with a Mountain Goat, just as well as it would be able to win with a Mishra's Factory.

The point I am trying to make here is that you do not need "threats" that do not produce mana and are not lands. This is not a fish deck. You do not need: Gorilla Shaman, Ophidian, Sower of Temptation, etc, etc, etc. If you choose to play these cards, then you are playing a hybrid strategy that is no longer Landstill. It is more like old school UR Fish.

Quote
Ophidian is a very poweful card, especially when fire clears the way for him, I've ran him in MUC and a mono blue tez list, he's great in long games which is something that this list causes because it whittles down the opponent while keeping a handful of permission.

I am not sure what your point is here. Yes, there are decks in which Ophidian fits well. That does not mean that it fits in Landstill just because Landstill is a control deck that taps for blue mana.

Quote
I don't think I have to argue standstill's power in a deck built around it as it has already proven itself.

You really do not have to argue anything at all, but you have to be aware of the following facts:

- Your land count is low for a traditional Landstill deck (24 sources as opposed to 26-27).
- You run very few manlands (4 as opposed to 7-8)
- You run more dead cards under Standstill (Ophidian, Sower, Merchant Scroll)

... and most importantly:

- Your list is unproven.

I am posting because I have been playing this deck longer than anyone else who plays this game, and I have tried many different variations of this build, including the options you are currently exploring. If you wish to spend time going down the paths that I already have in the past, then by all means, feel free to do so. I am trying to relay my experiences and save you some time and effort, but if you think you are onto a good thing, then stick to your guns and please post your tournament results.

Quote
What would you run in Ophidian's place? I could see cutting a few to increase man land count and possibly augury adept seeing how the only cards that are threats to it are pretty much the same as ophidian with a few exceptions.

First of all, I think you are choosing the wrong deck for your metagame. However, if you insist on playing Landstill in an aggro metagame, you should look at playing UW instead. In regards to Ophidian, I would cut it for a few extra lands and Fire/Ice, and cut the Sowers for some bounce (Chain). That would be a good start.
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"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." 
- Theodore Roosevelt
Bera
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« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2009, 10:54:28 am »

I agree with cutting 'phid for more manlands a third fire/ice. I'd probably cut sower for maindeck repeal or chain if I was going to an unknown/not creature heavy meta. I may just run a fish list until the null rods are scared away.
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