[Deck] 17 lands cobra

[beder]

Hi all,

Lately, I have been testing this engine based on the following cards which synergies really well:
-   Gush,
-   Lotus Cobra.

With Gush and Lotus Cobra as a starting point, in order to maximize those cards power, I decided to:
-   Add a package of 4x Jace, in order to take advantage of the mana produced by cobra,
-   Go for a “land base” mana base.

Going for a “land base” mana base also allows me to give a try to Thwart. Free hard counters have always some potential. Let’s go for 4 Thwart.

With that in mind, I designed the mana base in order to consistently access to 3 islands. This implies:
-   Playing 17 lands. I tested 16, this is not enough. I tested 18, this is too much. After lots of testing, I am pretty confidant saying that 17 is really the right number,
-   Add 4 explorations. Those are the engine enablers (plus fastbond for sure). One could say that Exploration is weak but in that build, this is definitely one mvp.

So here is the core of that build: 4 Fows, 4 Gush, 4 Lotus Cobra, 4 Jace,  4 Exploration, 1 Fastbond and 17 lands.

On top of that, I add 4 spellpierce for early disruption. In that build, Spellpierce is better than thoughseize because it allows me not to fetch for underground, preventing my manabase from being wasted (crucial given that I need to access my 3 Islands on board for Thwart).

Then and in addition to Jace, I add 4 Lorescale Coatl. Those can easily be played thanks to cobra and will definitely benefit from the strong drawing engine (Gush+Jace).

Finally, the last decisions regarding that build:
-   Stay on 2 colors – blue green – to ensure a very solid mana base,
-   Adding the 2 on-color moxes + Mana crypt. Mana Crypt is useful to play cobra turn one and to play jace,
-   Add some blue usual suspect : brainstorm, ponder, merchant scroll, ancestral and timewalk,
-   And use 1 Compulsive Research as the 60th cards, which synergies with the build, can use efficiently cobra mana and helps growing lorescale.

As a result, here is the latest build that I use:

------------------------------------------- 17 Lands Cobra -------------------------------------------
// 17 Lands
    3 Misty Rainforest
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Flooded Strand
    4 Island
    4 Tropical Island

// Creatures
    4 Lotus Cobra
    4 Lorescale Coatl

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mana Crypt

    4 Spell Pierce
    4 Force of Will
    4 Thwart
    4 Gush
    4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Time Walk
    1 Compulsive Research
    
    4 Exploration
    1 Fastbond

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

General thinkingg: The engine is efficient and the deck is consistent. Cobra or Explorations are the enablers for drawing and/or disruption. The disruption package is solid, made of 12 counters. One weakness is that the build has no out to Inkwell, except racing it (which is totally feasible).

Other cards which have been tested and dismissed:
-   Tarmogoyf in place of lorescale : Tarmo is nice but not so big in that build. It is very often 3/4 or 4/5. As a consequence, Lorescale seems to be a better choice here.
-   Life from the loan : without any waste effect, life is not so interesting. One idea could be to add 1 strip mine, 1 crop rotation and 1 life. But without a strong tutoring capability, I don’t think this would improve this build.
-   Trygon Predator : sure it is good and should be part of the side. In main, this is not a strong enough clock to be the win condition.
-       Preordain : after some testings, I replaced my 2 preordains with the merchant scroll and the compulsive research. This is IMO a better choice in that build, given the overall mana curve and the huge amount of mana which can be produced thanks to lotus cobra.    
-   Black splash with thoughseize, demonic consultation and demonic tutor : this is interesting, but fetching underground for thoughseize weakened the mana base and jeopardized the Thwart disruption.

Cards still under reflexion :
- Lorescale : this is the best option I found, but I am still not 100% sure,
- Merchant scroll : perhaps could I find a better option for this slot,
- 4th cobra : 3 may be sufficent.
- 4th Thwart : 3 may be the right number, I keep on switching from 3 to 4.
- Regrowth : could be interesting in that build.
- Mystical by itself : not using the gamebreaker sorceries - Tinker, Yawgmoth or others - I feel like mystical is really not so strong. Compared to Merchant Scroll, i prefer the sorcery which is not "card disadvantage" and gets the card right now (plus the sorcery speed is not such a liability because of Lotus Cobra mana often produced during your turn).
- Mystical AND Hurkylls recall : well, with only mystical and merchant to tutor for hurkylls, i am not sure that it is worth it. "Hurkylls being a liability in my hand" may occur more often than "being able to access it will save me the game". This is the same issue as in a noble fish build.

Matchups:  I won’t provide you with matchup analysis, because this would require even more testing and this is always subjective (or strongly dependant on the quality of opponent during testing). Nevertheless, having tested that build seriously against several TMD players on mws , I can affirm that this build is definitely viable against Tiers deck - Tezz, Gush decks, Shop, Oath or Fish. This can be explained by the 3 main strenghts of that build which are:
- Producing lot of mana quickly - to play Jace for instance - thanks to cobra, Exploration/fastbond and the strong manabase,
- Drawing lots of cards - thanks to gush and jaces -
- Having a strong disruption made of 12 counters (in that build, thwarts are really reliable counters, hardcasting them or as fows 5-8).

In the end, this is a nice build, different from regular gush or GAT builds, which in my opinion has definitely some potential.

Feel free to react,

Nicolas

[Stormanimagus]

Beder,

I've been testing a very similar deck but I do strongly disagree with a couple core choices of yours:

1. 17 land is too many. I think that 15-16 is just fine and here's why:

2. Thwart is not as good as Daze. I realize that Thwart is a hard counter, but it is just plain too slow. I'd cut Thwart for Daze and then trade out Pierce for 3-4 Mana Drain as your 2nd hard counter to FoW.

3. I think your deck should be running Trygon Predator. It is one of the best Cobra Sinks and an amazing tool against Shops. I think it is wayyy too good to omit.

4. 4 Jace is too many. 3 is generally just fine. You don't wanted to get flooded with them.

5. There should be at least 1 basic Forest between the MD and SB to accommodate Nature's Claims and help to always have mana up for Predator. I know this goes against Gush, but you'll not often have to fetch it out otherwise.

6. Coatl is cute, but I think too costly. I've been testing out Vinelasher Kudzu and have been super impressed with how fast he grows. It's not uncommon to have a 6/6 Kudzu within 2 turns of casting it. That is just as fast (if not faster) than Coatl and costs U less to play. I think Kudzu is better hands down as it interacts with a ton of cards in your deck while Coatl only gets +1/+1 a turn unless you have Jace or Gush. Coatl is definitely solid with an active Jace, but otherwise it is pretty slow and clogs up the 3 CMC slot. I could be wrong, but I just don't like it too much.

7. No answer to Tinker? I think you need some sort of control to the fatty race. I personally love Sower Of Temptation and run 3 MD for Fish and Tinker--> Bot. It's not hard to get to 4 mana quickly with an active Cobra.

8. I understand Brainstorm in a Coatl build as well as Compulsive Research, but overall I think those cards are a bit weak and 1-ofs that are tutors are definitely bad. Scroll's power is greatly diminished when you don't run Tendrils or Yawgmoth's Wil and I really don't think it belongs in this deck at all. Same goes for Ponder. Again, I understand Brainstorm due to the inclusion of Coatl, but I'd even cut that as I don't like Coatl.

For reference, here's the list I'm testing with all the above changes:

Exploring Gush

Land (15):
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Island
1 Forest

Artifacts (6):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
3 Null Rod

Enchantments (5):
4 Exploration
1 Fastbond

Planeswalkers (3):
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

Creatures (14):
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Vinelasher Kudzu
3 Trygon Predator
3 Sower Of Temptation

Instants (16):
4 Force Of Will
4 Gush
4 Daze
3 Mana Drain
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
3 Energy Flux
2 Nature’s Claim
3 Mindbreak Trap

The SB is a bit sloppy as of now, but I think it's just a numbers game that I need to tweak a bit.

I'm not trying to completely tear apart your deck (I enjoy playing against you on MWS after all ). I am simply trying to point out what I see as a better alternative using your same shell. I was definitely inspired by older posts involving 4 Exploration and 4 Gush. I really think this deck may have legs in the new meta.

-Storm

[Saya]

Hi Beder,
the Idea of compulsive research is nice.I think you should run research 2 or more

[beder]

Beder,

I've been testing a very similar deck but I do strongly disagree with a couple core choices of yours:

1. 17 land is too many. I think that 15-16 is just fine and here's why:

2. Thwart is not as good as Daze. I realize that Thwart is a hard counter, but it is just plain too slow. I'd cut Thwart for Daze and then trade out Pierce for 3-4 Mana Drain as your 2nd hard counter to FoW.

In this build, without full moxen but still using high CC spells, even if I weren't using thwart I would still use 16 lands (instead of 17).
Here, I add the 17th land because of Thwart, you are right about that relationship.

Then and when it comes to Thwart, I don't feel like it is too slow in this build. With one exploration, it comes very frequently online turn 2. If not, turn 3. That's why I also use spellpierce, as an early game disruption. In your build, you replaced my spellpierces with your dazes (for early game) and my thwarts with your drains (for mid late game). This is a different approach.
For the time being, I have to say that I am really happy with the Thwart which were extremely good to me during testings.

3. I think your deck should be running Trygon Predator. It is one of the best Cobra Sinks and an amazing tool against Shops. I think it is wayyy too good to omit.

You are right, they are amazing against Shops. I used to have another creature package, made of 3 lotus cobra, 3 tarmos and 3 trygon predator. I keep adding and removing the Trygon. I guess it is a meta call. Even without the trygon, the deck already has some good weapons against shops.
Do you need the trygon main? For sure if you are in a meta with a lot of shop. If not, then I think there may be some other options, especially because with gush coming back, blue decks use less mana artifact.

4. 4 Jace is too many. 3 is generally just fine. You don't wanted to get flooded with them.

I want one to stick as soon as possible. If I have 2 of them in hand, this is not such a big deal :
- either the first one is countered, and I am happy to have the other one in hand,
- or the first one sticks and I should be able to brainstorm the other one back into library.
Jace is THE card that I want to play really fast.

6. Coatl is cute, but I think too costly. I've been testing out Vinelasher Kudzu and have been super impressed with how fast he grows. It's not uncommon to have a 6/6 Kudzu within 2 turns of casting it. That is just as fast (if not faster) than Coatl and costs U less to play. I think Kudzu is better hands down as it interacts with a ton of cards in your deck while Coatl only gets +1/+1 a turn unless you have Jace or Gush. Coatl is definitely solid with an active Jace, but otherwise it is pretty slow and clogs up the 3 CMC slot. I could be wrong, but I just don't like it too much.

I tested Vinelasher but was not as impressed as you are. Perhaps I should give it another try.

But considering Lorescale and to be complete, you cannot just consider gush and jace. You also have to consider ancestrall, brainstorm, ponder, merchant scroll (for gush or ancestrall) and compulsive research. In the end, this is :
- 1 cards => +1/+1
- 4+1 = 5 cards => +2/+2 (counting merchant as a gush, which is the worst case scenario when it comes to lorescale growing)
- 4+1+1+1 = 7cards => +3/+3 (jace, brainstorm, ancestrall and compulsive research)

So in the end, there are 13 cards to grow him more than the automatic +1/+1 each turn. And those cards may be chained.

7. No answer to Tinker? I think you need some sort of control to the fatty race. I personally love Sower Of Temptation and run 3 MD for Fish and Tinker--> Bot. It's not hard to get to 4 mana quickly with an active Cobra.

Well, Sower does not help against Tinker=>Inkwell. For other tinker targets, I use jace.

8. I understand Brainstorm in a Coatl build as well as Compulsive Research, but overall I think those cards are a bit weak and 1-ofs that are tutors are definitely bad. Scroll's power is greatly diminished when you don't run Tendrils or Yawgmoth's Wil and I really don't think it belongs in this deck at all. Same goes for Ponder. Again, I understand Brainstorm due to the inclusion of Coatl, but I'd even cut that as I don't like Coatl.

With Gush, brainstorm is clearly a mvp. Ponder is also pretty good at finding that extra land, another gush or even an exploration. I would never/never cut them in such a build.

On the opposite and when it comes to Compulsive research or Merchant scroll, I agree with you. Right now, those two slots are under discussion. For the time being, those are the latest "best options" I found for the 2 last slots, with regard to this build game plan.


In the end, your approach is pretty different and that's good. That's what makes us improve our ideas. Good to see that other player are interested in using exploration

[meadbert]

I doubt Exploration is type 1 playable right now, but if you are using Exploration you should probably consider Burgeoning.

Burgeoning says you can put an extra land into play whenever an opponent does.

Basically when your opponent drops and cracks a fetch land you get to make 2 land drops which can be a convenient time to Gush (although I think they can time it to mess you up.)

Anyway this makes Thwart more likely to be online turn 1 since if you are lucky enough to have 3 Islands to start you can potentially have 3 land drops after your opponent drops a fetch land.

The draw back is that if for one reason or another your opponent is not making land drops then Burgeoning does nothing for you.


I agree with Stormangus about Daze being better than Thwart!

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

regarding the suggested card:
10/4/2004: Playing a land will trigger it, but putting a land onto the battlefield as part of an effect will not.
so: not really.

[meadbert]

regarding the suggested card:
10/4/2004: Playing a land will trigger it, but putting a land onto the battlefield as part of an effect will not.
so: not really.

My bad.

[beder]

I doubt Exploration is type 1 playable right now, but if you are using Exploration you should probably consider Burgeoning.

Well, right now is one of the best time for it to be viable, with cobra AND gush. I agree that it doesn't mean that it is, but at least those changing factors in Vintage environment could make it viable today, more than ever.

I agree with Stormangus about Daze being better than Thwart!

Well, as I answered, I feel like comparing Daze to Thwart is not 100% relevant. This is more a comparison in between Daze/Spellpierce and Thwart/Drain. I don't have any theory to backup my conviction but in my testings with that build, Thwart was really excellent. This does not mean that in Storm's build, using null rod and playing only 15 lands, daze+drain is not the right choice.
Comparing cards by themselves is often very difficult, especially when it comes to cards whose power strongly relies on synergies or on tempo. I am pretty sure that the guy who created the deck relying the most on synergie - ichorid - should agree with that affirmation

[Stormanimagus]

I doubt Exploration is type 1 playable right now, but if you are using Exploration you should probably consider Burgeoning.

Well, right now is one of the best time for it to be viable, with cobra AND gush. I agree that it doesn't mean that it is, but at least those changing factors in Vintage environment could make it viable today, more than ever.

I agree with Stormangus about Daze being better than Thwart!

Well, as I answered, I feel like comparing Daze to Thwart is not 100% relevant. This is more a comparison in between Daze/Spellpierce and Thwart/Drain. I don't have any theory to backup my conviction but in my testings with that build, Thwart was really excellent. This does not mean that in Storm's build, using null rod and playing only 15 lands, daze+drain is not the right choice.
Comparing cards by themselves is often very difficult, especially when it comes to cards whose power strongly relies on synergies or on tempo. I am pretty sure that the guy who created the deck relying the most on synergie - ichorid - should agree with that affirmation

Very True. Here's the issue I see with Thwart though:

It's an awful card without an active Exploration and/or Lotus Cobra. It's pretty bad with just Cobra out but passable depending on the game state. Without both of those pieces to go with it Thwart is super anti-synergistic with Jace. It keeps you from hitting Jace mana far too often and the turn you are forced to use it vs. Combo will too often be the turn before you would have had mana for Jace. I understand that it is a hard counter, but so is Daze if you play it correctly.

Here's why I think Daze is much better than Spell Pierce btw.

1. It helps facilitate the engine of the deck and can protect a resolved Cobra on turn 2 while you are tapped out.

2. It can hit creatures

3. It can hit creatures

4. IT CAN HIT CREATURES!!

5. Did I mention it can hit creatures?

I think that Pierce has lost a lot of oomph in the wake of Dark Confidant, Hatebears, Lodestone Golems, Metalworkers and Cobras all helping to define the format. There are also many other more niche creatures that are played in less optimal decks.

I also used to run pierce but have found that it is just too easy to play around. Players see U untapped and they know exactly what they can and cannot cast. Daze allows you to tap out and, though players can play around it, they seem to less, surprisingly. They realize that it can counter ANYTHING and thus will take the risk of going "all in" perhaps a little too soon. Daze does lose some power later in the game, but then you have Drain and FoW to bat clean up.

Drain is just amazing if you are running 3-4 Jace and it is also good for powering out multiple threats in the same turn. The format is so much about lock pieces and set-up in the first 2 turns of the game now that I really think that Daze is warranted. The fact that it fuels your engine is just gravy.

-Storm

[beder]

Storm, I agree with all that you write when it comes to Thwart. And to be honnest, I can't really explain on a strictly logical point of view why it is so good during my testings.
What I noticed in real game is that Thwart comes online soon enough to protect me from broken, without slowing down my development.
I think this may be due to several factors :
- If I have exploration, then Thwart comes online sufficently fast,
- If I have cobra, then Jace comes online first and I can brainstorm back Thwart if it is not usable,
- If I don't have cobra but can play jace, then I generally can use Thwart to protect it and then rely on Jace to either find another usable counter or just use the fatesteal ability,
- During early game, if opponent tries to play around spellpierce, it gives me enough time to have Thwart online or to start the engine.
- It helps protecting that turn 3, 4, 5 or 6 during which I try to chain spells in order to grow lorescale and/or find some other counters,

Don't get me wrong, I know that all those reasons may seem "weird/light/not convincing" or "tiré par les cheveux" as we say in french. I cannot really explain it through a well-built argumentation, but I can affirm is that I tested it a lot (really) and I never regretted it to be a Thwart. It complements very well fow and spellpierce, being weak when those are strong and strong when those are good (fow) / weaker  (spellpierce).

When it comes to Daze, I may need to test them. My only concern is that after the first one, it is even easier to play around than spellpierce. I used to play them in a noble fish build, which has a strong mana denial plan. But even there I was not 100% convinced. Perhaps am I not 100% objective regarding Daze...

[Qube]

Without any testing of the deck, just a theoretical question.

Have you thought about adding red and make following changes.

- 1 Thwart
- 4 Spell Pierce
- 1 Merchant Scroll
- 1 Compulsive Research
- 1 Island
- 1 Tropical Island

+ 2 Mana Drain
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast
+ 1 Pyroblast
+ 1 Timetwister
+ 1 Wheel of Fortune
+ 2 Volcanic Island

With your plan to play exploration asap and play additional lands, you will have twister/wheel online reliably on turn 2. You could refresh your hand. Also nice to end the game mostly on the spot with a coatl out. +7/7 for 2 / . with the possibility to play more gush and other draw.

I like mana drain very much if you play with cobra cause the fact, that you only need a fetch out to play drain. REB > Spell Pierce, since it's a hardcounter IF it's blue.

What do you think about? As I stated above, I had not tested against other decks. Just brainstorming.

Another card, which came up in my mind: Wind of Change. Allows you to make some tricks, like first turn land, exploration, land, wind of change, put your 3 cards back into library and ancestral recall. Your opponent have to take a new hand if its bad or not. also late game with coatl can be nice. But this is a two edge sword, thats clear. but maybe you could test this once. I also will try.

[beder]

Without any testing of the deck, just a theoretical question.

Have you thought about adding red and make following changes.

- 1 Thwart
- 4 Spell Pierce
- 1 Merchant Scroll
- 1 Compulsive Research
- 1 Island
- 1 Tropical Island

+ 2 Mana Drain
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast
+ 1 Pyroblast
+ 1 Timetwister
+ 1 Wheel of Fortune
+ 2 Volcanic Island

With your plan to play exploration asap and play additional lands, you will have twister/wheel online reliably on turn 2. You could refresh your hand. Also nice to end the game mostly on the spot with a coatl out. +7/7 for 2 / . with the possibility to play more gush and other draw.

I like mana drain very much if you play with cobra cause the fact, that you only need a fetch out to play drain. REB > Spell Pierce, since it's a hardcounter IF it's blue.

What do you think about? As I stated above, I had not tested against other decks. Just brainstorming.

Another card, which came up in my mind: Wind of Change. Allows you to make some tricks, like first turn land, exploration, land, wind of change, put your 3 cards back into library and ancestral recall. Your opponent have to take a new hand if its bad or not. also late game with coatl can be nice. But this is a two edge sword, thats clear. but maybe you could test this once. I also will try.

Just considering Lorescale, you are right, draw 7 are pretty good.

But IMO, draw 7 is really good - meaning benefits exceed risks - in a deck which has a really strong "Win this turn strategy" - like storm but not this build.
And draw7 are not very good in decks with a strong draw engine - like this build - which don't want to reset card advantage.

In the end, i don't think it would be such a good idea. But I didn't test it.