NEW IDEA :-:-: Channel-Mirror

[Venominon]

I have had this idea since I got a set of this card and couldn't figure out any way to utilize it. One day someone said that Vintage was 'The format where any seven cards can win this turn" and although I do not agree with him, something in my head clicked.

  Channel - Mirror

-- Winning stuff
1 Channel
4 Lich's Mirror
4 Stroke of Genius
2 Selective Memory


--- Protection
4 Force of will
4 Pact of Negation
4 Thoughtseize

--- Digging things
1 Gush
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
1 brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Personal Tutor
1 Sylvan Scrying

--- Mana things
4 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
3 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy

---Good Stuff
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Time Spiral
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister

So the idea is that if you can get channel and cast it, you can continue it's effect through an activation of Lich's Mirror. Each Lich's Mirror that you cast while channel is active allows you to draw seven cards and gain 20 colorless mana. At some point you can draw selective memory and then remove the cards from your deck until you can draw through the deck every time while still playing Lich's Mirror and gaining mana, building up into a huge Stroke on your opponent for the win. I don't know if this is even viable but I'd like to hear some comments on it. I've only played Vintage in a casual atmosphere and have only limited playtesting with the deck since we do not have a large vintage crowd here in Rochester NY.

[NilsH]

At some point you can draw selective memory and then remove the cards from your deck until you can draw through the deck every time while still playing Lich's Mirror and gaining mana, building up into a huge Stroke on your opponent for the win.

This won't work... Selectiv Memory only remove non-land cards, you'll still have 17 lands it your deck (+ whatever you chose to keep in).

The combo Channel and Lich's Mirror has allready seen some play. I small group in Canada did do a lot a work on it. Here's a list:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22943

I think there's a thread about it here on TMD actually.

It seems like a fun deck to play. I advice you to take a look at some other lists and read about it, before you have your own take on it.

Good Luck 

[covetousrat]

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37247.0

This is the Lich mirror premier. You can have a look at it . Try using the 'search' button, theres a few Lich mirror treats around.

[Delha]

Ancestral Knowledge is another way to crop chunks out of your library, and hits lands/nonlands equally. With draw, it can also help you set up dumb things like multiple mirrors (letting you float tons of mana between triggers). Just a thought.

-Why the Sylvan Scrying?

-No Tinker bot to mise into? Or maybe Sphinx, since it can completely turn around some matchups where you're way behind and Mirror can't save you.

[mistervader]

-1 selective memory
+ 1 mana severance

There ya go. Now you have a total infinite loop once you get both cards going.

[BruiZar]

You actually need colored mana, and mana severancing makes mox diamond, really sub optimal If you can fabricate for lotus, you can generate some mana which is good. Maybe even a manaconverter could be used in addition?

[Delha]

You can always leave in a few lands from Severance.

For a color converter, maybe Eye or Ramos or Gemstone Array?

[serracollector]

Things I see missing off hand:

Lion's Eye Diamond - obv so so obv.

Crop rotation - scrying for academy not good.  Instant academy good.

Expedition Map - still better than scrying, when not used boosts academy, or finds that 2nd green source for channel.

Thirst for Knowledge - some good I hear.

Brainstorm - read above.

Cunning wish - then you won't need to run so many strokes.

Demonic Tutor/Vampiric Tutor - .....

Yawgmoth's Win Will - .....

Emerakl/Platinum Angel - who need's vault key?  Platinum lets the game continue if your combo fails, and Emrakl, channel him into play and Im pretty sure you win.

[Delha]

LED: At a guess, I'm thinking this is only good when going off, in which case it's probably win more.

Crop Rotation, Expedition Map: I think Scrying is a bad call, and wouldn't run substitutes at all. That said, if I wanted land tutoring, I don't think these are better. CR is crazy vulnerable to counters, and practically anything blue runs FoW. As a minor plus, Scrying can also turn on Mox Diamond in hand, CR cannot. Map costs an extra mana. If you resolved Channel, that's probably not an issue, but if you resolved Channel, why are you searching up lands?

Thirst: Maybe. Shrug. Thirst is pricey. Without drain, I'm not so sure it's an autoinclude.

Brainstorm: Already in the list.

Cunning Wish, DT, VT: Agreed.

Yawg Will: The list doesn't look like it's built to abuse Will.

Platz: Pretty sure that this stops Mirror from triggering. Yes, they now need double removal (Platz & Mirror), but they also have lots of time to dig up Hurkyl's.

Emrakul: Sure, why not? Probably too cute, but who knows? Might as well test it a bit.

[Dnine]

What happened to Top?  I remember when this deck first was discussed Sensi's Divining top was one of the best cards.  It helps you find the combo before going off.  Allows you to get channel in your hand off your top deck tutors.  And while going off turns your 7 card hands into 10 card hands all for no colorless mana.  You can also float the draw ablility in between Mirrors so you start with 8 cards in hand.  Should be in the list somewhere if not as a 4 of.

[Venominon]

ok try number two, was finding the first to be too inconsistent after the combo started and selective sucked. I added the black search because I forgot it the first time, an Emrakul as a backup win and lock for mill (JIC). I didn't add Yawgmoth's (when Mirror triggers I don't have a graveyard anymore, not a combo) I took out the Tolarian search (I don't need academy so meh) and didn't add the Cunning Wish (I need Stroke during the combo, its not just a win condition but also an enabler to get to another Mirror)

-- Winning stuff --9
1 Channel
4 Lich's Mirror
4 Stroke of Genius

--- Protection --12
4 Force of will
4 Pact of Negation
4 Thoughtseize

--- Digging things --11
1 Gush
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
1 brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Personal Tutor
4 Sensei's Diving top
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

--- Mana things --22
4 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
3 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy

---Good Stuff --6
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

[serracollector]

Lotus petal

[NilsH]

Lotus petal

...and Lion's Eye Diamond. When you combo off the LED will be a Black Lotus #2 as you won't have a hand anyway (activate it just before you die to Channel).

LED: At a guess, I'm thinking this is only good when going off, in which case it's probably win more.

I did some testing with a simular build, it needs all the colored fastmana it can get.


Also, why only 1 Personal Tutor? It is unrestricted  

[Delha]

LED: At a guess, I'm thinking this is only good when going off, in which case it's probably win more.

I did some testing with a simular build, it needs all the colored fastmana it can get.

Even after going off?

[Venominon]

I've been talking to some people and they suggested Chromatic Star as a colorless source of colored mana while going off. I haven't found that I needed to much colored mana inside the loop as Stroke and 1-mana tutors are all that hit the board.

Someone today told me that Mox Diamond was restricted. That doesn't sound right, but if its true I messed up a bit.

[Delha]

I've been talking to some people and they suggested Chromatic Star as a colorless source of colored mana while going off. I haven't found that I needed to much colored mana inside the loop as Stroke and 1-mana tutors are all that hit the board.

Someone today told me that Mox Diamond was restricted. That doesn't sound right, but if its true I messed up a bit.

Chromatic Star probably isn't terrible, since you can stack the draws before popping Mirror. Unless you're having color problems before going off though, I wouldn't bother.

Mox Diamond was restricted for quite a while, but that is no longer the case.

[Malhavoc]

I was actually tinkering with this deck recently on my own.

I really liked the build someone has linked already, however I find it a bit weak against a mana denial strategy. In this regard I tried to tweak it in order to have a better mana base and be less vulnerable to null rod.

Both things work around using Manamorphose: it lets you convert U from an unwastable first turn island  (to cast personal tutor for instance) into G for that turn two channel. It can also convert offcolor mox into useful mana for a bit of acceleration (like second in the example above, an added mox could help provide GGU to fuel a channel -> Fabricate into lich combo).

Despite Manamorphose, however, I feel the stars are still needed as a way to provide color mana in a reliable way if you combo without colored mana in pool (where manamorphose can't help), or when you are getting a new hand and still don't know which kind of mana you'll need. However it's the card I'd like to remove in the end: it goes under null rod, doesn't provide acceleration on its own and the mana conversion is in loss (2x1) if you activate it the same turn you cast it. I would like to go with just manamorphose and more lands, but you force yourself in needing an open land when comboing out.

I don't like diamond: too few lands and too vulnerable to null rod. Time vault is out of place here, given that you can't even keep the channel effect from turn to turn, and the angel has been proven weak: it's not much aggressive and the opponent can't take time to sculpt a winning hand while you can't combo out of the mirror, until he can destroy both and manage every possible threat you may have collected meanwhile.

I think strokes are interesting as an alternative to fabricate.. however they are too mana intensive pre-combo, and post combo tutoring (either mirror to keep on rolling or lotus to get colored mana) seems better than drawing a bunch of cards where you may get unlucky. Kaervek's torch requires you to collect less mana and can be used to remove an opposing Platinum as well.

I've come to like Nevinyrall's Disk as well as a nice target against artifact: you can easily tutor tinker turn one and if you manage to cast it you should have time to set up before cleaning the board and going for the combo.



//MANA: 10+6(+8) = 16(24)
    4  Misty Rainforest
    1  Forest
    1  Island
    2  Tropical Island
    1  Bayou
    1  Taiga
   
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Emerald

    1  Black Lotus
    1  Lotus Petal

    4  Chromatic Star
    4  Manamorphose

//DRAW: 8
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Brainstorm
    1  Timetwister
    1  Memory Jar
    4  Sensei's Divining Top

// TUTOR: 13
    1  Tinker
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Imperial Seal
    1  Mystical Tutor
    4  Personal Tutor
    4  Fabricate

// COMBO: 6
    1  Channel
    1  Kaervek's Torch
    4  Lich's Mirror

// PROTECTION: 9
    4  Pact of Negation
    4  Force of Will
    1  Nevinyrral's Disk

// Sideboard
SB: 4  Nature's Claim
SB: 4  Xantid Swarm
SB: 1  Jester's Cap
SB: 1  Æther Spellbomb
SB: 2  Pyroclasm
SB: 3  Relic of Progenitus

[mistervader]

Personally, I think Emrakul is the best kill condition to toss out in this deck. Channel + Him = Time Walk + Swing, and if you cast him multiple times via the Mirror loop, you are taking extra turns already to assure you of a victory. He also has the nice benefit of possibly being dropped into play on his own off a Channel even without the Mirror loop, and he's plain uncounterable.

[Wagner]

Personally, I think Emrakul is the best kill condition to toss out in this deck. Channel + Him = Time Walk + Swing, and if you cast him multiple times via the Mirror loop, you are taking extra turns already to assure you of a victory. He also has the nice benefit of possibly being dropped into play on his own off a Channel even without the Mirror loop, and he's plain uncounterable.

He sounds interesting, but I feel he's win more. When you are in the Mirror loop, it's pretty much garanteed your opponent has no counterspells, so he is as valid as the rest. When not in a loop, I think you still are better with something that can remove Meddling Mage, Canonist, Confidant and other random stuff without using Channel.

[Venominon]

Emrakul seems bad because you don't get to carry the Channel over into his extra turns.
Stroke is also probably not ideal as it requires 40+ mana for the win instead of just 20
This is kind of serious and kind of not, but what about Hurricane effects? It would be on color, and because of the Mirror the deck would go back up to 20 life so it would be able to hurricane for more than 20 and still survive...?

[Delha]

...When not in a loop, I think you still are better with something that can remove Meddling Mage, Canonist, Confidant and other random stuff without using Channel.

Annihilator 6 removes all of that stuff. What kill do suggest running instead that can handles those cards when you're not inside the loop?

Emrakul seems bad because you don't get to carry the Channel over into his extra turns.

Yes, you lose the Channel, but you presumably don't need it anymore. Terastodon is bad news for most decks, and Channel->Emrakul is essentially a strict upgrade. The elephant demands an immediate effect because you pass the turn before swinging. Emrakul hits their board (sans drawback) before they get another turn AND swings at the same time. The one place I forsee him being bad is when the Shop player has you mostly locked out, since you probably don't have all that many permanents for Wire/Smoky.

[Malhavoc]

They won't put meddling on fireball (or whichever fireball effect you use), cause they can't be sure which kind of fireball you'll use or if you have bounce spells in the deck. They just need to meddle with channel to stop your engine. With no channel emrakul is uncastable, but a fireball can still remove meddling.

Emrakul does still remove things like Worship, but c'mon.. just keep a bounce spell in the deck.. it's just better. Think that if you can start the engine you just win, the win condition is negligible (but the lack of synergy between channel and emrakul doesn't favor him too much actually).

The only advantage of emrakul is being able to just channel him into play and winning with it, something that's a bit too risky with fireball, cause if countered you are almost dead while they can't counter emrakul - they still can counter channel anyway, and they will or they are just playing bad.. figure just if you have two mirrors in hand for instance. Still, if you have a tutor in hand getting a mirror is much better and safe than getting emrakul, even against artifact where you could have some sphere effects against you.

Anyway, what can be worth discussing isn't the win condition, is the whole skeleton around it, since what the deck needs badly isn't the way you win, but an efficient and resilient way to fuel the win.

[scipio]

I think you need a stronger disruption package.  Since Channel is restricted you only have one shot to pull off your combo.  This reminds me of gush-era flash decks.  In fact, restricted flash may have more of a chance since you don't need the GG to cast it.  At any rate, those decks often packed 4-8 duress effects.  Further, I think enlightened tutor is better than personal because it's instant speed, so swapping out taiga for savannah might be a decent way to achieve that.  This gives you access to swords, path, and serenity in the board.  Serenity is an absolute bear against Stax/MUD, Oath, and Vault-Key, and you can still put your mirror into play when you're ready to combo out.  I would ditch the fabricates - they're quite slow as a 3CC sorcery.  Putting in Merchant scroll will get you to ancestral or allow you to go down the old-school tutor chain.  Ponder and brainstorm are a must, and the new card that scry's might be good too. I would use elvish spirit guide over manamorphose to get channel into play.  And if you're going to play tinker, you may as well put a robot in.  Sphinx is a still good call right now, and some bounce would be helpful.  I also think pact becomes less powerful if we ditch torch as a win-con.

Building from Malhavoc's list:
drop red, add white.
-4 personal tutor, -4 fabricate, -1 Kaervach's torch, -1 Taiga, -4 Manamorphose, -1 Nevi's disk, -1 ruby, -2 top, -4 star, -2 pact
+ 1 Savannah, +6 duress/thoughtseize, + 1 merchant scroll, +3 enlightened tutor, + 4 elvish spirit guide, + 1 pearl, + 1 sphinx of the steel wind, + 1 emrakul, +1 stroke of genius, +1 bayou, +1 tropical island, +2 chain of vapor

Just in case the DCI gets crazy, I think I'll pick up a playset of channel.  This gets pretty exciting with unrestricted channel.

[Delha]

They won't put meddling on fireball (or whichever fireball effect you use), cause they can't be sure which kind of fireball you'll use or if you have bounce spells in the deck. They just need to meddle with channel to stop your engine. With no channel emrakul is uncastable, but a fireball can still remove meddling.

Assuming you win a game, they'll know which fireball variant you're using. I agree that I would still personally name either Channel or Mirror, but just pointing out the flaw in your logic. If I knew you were running fireball, I might put a second mage on that if I drew into it.

Emrakul does still remove things like Worship, but c'mon.. just keep a bounce spell in the deck.. it's just better. Think that if you can start the engine you just win, the win condition is negligible (but the lack of synergy between channel and emrakul doesn't favor him too much actually).

Fireball plus a bounce spell is obviously two slots, whereas Emrakul inherently provides comparable resilience. As you also mentioned, he can be hardcast without requiring that you enter the loop fully. Channel->Fireball requires  to kill, assuming you are at the same life as your opponent. Arguments about Channel being countered is irrelevant, as neither wincon makes a difference in that situation. Your comment on tutoring also misses the mark here. In just about any situation where you ought to grab Mirror over Emrakul, it would also be correct to grab Mirror over Fireball.

Anyway, what can be worth discussing isn't the win condition, is the whole skeleton around it, since what the deck needs badly isn't the way you win, but an efficient and resilient way to fuel the win.

If a deck is worth discussing at all, the wincon is as well. I'm not saying for a minute that the engine is less important, but there's a reason you can find page after page arguing over what Oath fatties should be used in a given list.

[Venominon]

Assuming you win a game, they'll know which fireball variant you're using. I agree that I would still personally name either Channel or Mirror, but just pointing out the flaw in your logic. If I knew you were running fireball, I might put a second mage on that if I drew into it.

But can't they just do the same thing to Emrakul? MM on him still kills that win con anyways right? Hence the reason I was going to run 2x Braingeyser and 2x Stroke of Genius for the wincon. That way they cannot MM both and it is not a dead draw by any means, rather a combo enabler that allows the deck to draw Mirrors and Tutors that it would otherwise not see. So what if I need to make extra mana over Fireball or Emrakul, when the combo is working then you rarely fizzle anyways.

[Delha]

Assuming you win a game, they'll know which fireball variant you're using. I agree that I would still personally name either Channel or Mirror, but just pointing out the flaw in your logic. If I knew you were running fireball, I might put a second mage on that if I drew into it.

But can't they just do the same thing to Emrakul? MM on him still kills that win con anyways right?

Yes, that is exactly true. Malhavoc was saying that Emrakul is vulnerable to MM, while a fireball wasn't (since they couldn't know which variant was being used). My point was that this claim was untrue, and that both kills get locked by MM in game 2. Beyond that, I was also stating that this perceived advantage was irrelevant b/c as pointed out, Channel/Mirror were better cards to name w/ MM.

Hence the reason I was going to run 2x Braingeyser and 2x Stroke of Genius for the wincon. That way they cannot MM both and it is not a dead draw by any means, rather a combo enabler that allows the deck to draw Mirrors and Tutors that it would otherwise not see. So what if I need to make extra mana over Fireball or Emrakul, when the combo is working then you rarely fizzle anyways.

I think that 4 kills is excessive. That said, if you're dead set on it, I'd recommend 1 each (Braingeyser/Stroke/Emrakul/Banefire), to make it harder to lock you out of a given kill method.

My comment on mana is referring to cases where you have/tutor Channel, but don't have Mirror. Fetch/Emerald/Channel/Emrakul will probably win you the game. The same hand with a fireball instead of Emrakul cannot.

[SiegeX]

I definitely like Emrakul as a kill card, the only problem I see with using it as such is that you all but eliminate your Pact of Negations as ways to protect channel.  I haven't goldfished this deck yet but I'm guessing 3UU on the Emrakul turn with no channel ability is no small feat.  Running an Academy would likely help but this deck has no way to find it other than running through the loop multiple times until it shows up.