Leyline of Sanctity in Stax?

[Meddling Mike]

Leyline of Sanctity

2WW

Enchantment

If Leyline of Sanctity is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it on the battlefield.

You have Shroud

I think this card might be very good in Vintage.  They can't oath, but not only that, they can't therapy, duress, thoughtseize, unmask, mind twist, gifts ungiven, hurkyl's recall, etc.  

Let's say I'm a stax player.  If I start with this and you can't kill it, I can't lose to Oath, hand destruction, or Hurkyl's!  

It was suggested that this card could potentially have a home in Stax and thought it would be worth discussing. I can see the appeal of a card like this in that is has a powerful effect that is normally not made available to artifacts. The fact that it shuts off a number of potentially threatening cards also fits in with the prison aspect of the deck.

Personally, I don't feel like this card will ever have a home in Stax. This card will be nearly impossible for just about any modern stax deck to cast if it's not played as a pre-game effect. Stax has no means of filtering this dead card out other than Bazaar of Baghdad. I also don't think the effect is strong enough to make the anti-synergy with the rest of the deck worth it. There is almost no situation where I could see aggressively mulliganing to get this card into play. The matchup where this card would be at it's best, against Oath, they usually are already bringing in Nature's Claim, which would handle this card as well, so it's getting some of the splash damage from that sideboard card.

Any other thoughts about this card's possible applications in Workshop-Based Prison?

[Killane]

Leyline of Sanctity

2WW

Enchantment

If Leyline of Sanctity is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it on the battlefield.

You have Shroud

I think this card might be very good in Vintage.  They can't oath, but not only that, they can't therapy, duress, thoughtseize, unmask, mind twist, gifts ungiven, hurkyl's recall, etc.  

Let's say I'm a stax player.  If I start with this and you can't kill it, I can't lose to Oath, hand destruction, or Hurkyl's!  

It was suggested that this card could potentially have a home in Stax and thought it would be worth discussing. I can see the appeal of a card like this in that is has a powerful effect that is normally not made available to artifacts. The fact that it shuts off a number of potentially threatening cards also fits in with the prison aspect of the deck.

Personally, I don't feel like this card will ever have a home in Stax. This card will be nearly impossible for just about any modern stax deck to cast if it's not played as a pre-game effect. Stax has no means of filtering this dead card out other than Bazaar of Baghdad. I also don't think the effect is strong enough to make the anti-synergy with the rest of the deck worth it. There is almost no situation where I could see aggressively mulliganing to get this card into play. The matchup where this card would be at it's best, against Oath, they usually are already bringing in Nature's Claim, which would handle this card as well, so it's getting some of the splash damage from that sideboard card.

Any other thoughts about this card's possible applications in Workshop-Based Prison?

Given how easy it is to land a Chalice at one, shutting off claim, this them makes it impossible to EOT Hurkyll's and go nuts. It seems strong enough.

[zeus-online]

I think this will be yet another SB card against combo (maybe oath aswell?)

I guess RnD really hates combo! or maybe they dislike burnspells.

[Neonico]

The only real interest is to be a good card against a weak matchup : oath....
But you have alot better options in both MUD and 5c stax

[Will]

With Serum Powder as in Espresso Stax it would be more reliable and seems possible to get in the opener but the problem for me lies in what you remove from your sideboard to play it since currently my oath hate cards are 3 Maze of Ith and 2 Duplicant.  While they aren't the absolute best cards at stopping Oath they also come in against Noble Fish which means that by removing them you weaken your Fish matchup which may or may not be an issue.  The reason I could see it being good against Oath is the fact that in testing (only preboard games so I'm only speculating) if Oath didn't get a turn 1 Orchard Oath then they would generally lose.  Leyline at least slows that down and it also has the added benefit of being uncounterable (if played turn 0) which invalidates much of their initial answers since they are a reasonably counter-heavy deck.  As a whole, I don't think the card demands an auto-include in every Workshop deck, but it seems to me that it is worth testing especially as Oath gains more and more steam.   

[Smmenen]

I think this card is custom made for Stax, and I'm a bit surprised by the first post.   It takes away the single two most annoying cards in Vintage for Workshops. 

[BC]

I think this card is custom made for Stax, and I'm a bit surprised by the first post.   It takes away the single two most annoying cards in Vintage for Workshops.  

I kind of agree, sorta.  It's a very very good sideboard card when it's in your opening hand.  If you draw it later, maybe you can filter it with Bazaar, maybe it's just dead.  The alternative cards that fill this role (Jester's Cap, Greater Gargadon...) are less good in your opening hand, but are far from dead when you draw them down the line.  I don't think this card is maindeck-worthy in any Stax build.  I will definitely be taking a serious look at it for my board, though.

[median]

Just on it being a dead card later in the game note, my experience playing oath against stax is that usually if I have the mana to cast an oath I can counter about 1 spell. It seems to me that in that match you would probably want it down turn zero as part of your early soft lock. This seems better than duplicant to some extent here since oath targets and if you get a chalice at one down it's over for them.

[Meddling Mike]

I think this card is custom made for Stax, and I'm a bit surprised by the first post.   It takes away the single two most annoying cards in Vintage for Workshops. 

I guess my main concern with regards to this card is that I don't see it winning the game for you all by itself, the way Leyline of the Void can against Ichorid. I'm sure it could be an annoyance, but a good Oath deck has more paths to victory than just Oath of Druids. It shuts down that plan, but the Tezz/Vault/Key remain intact as does Tinker/Robot and neither of those strategies care about this card. Losing Hurkyl's matters, but I think if this got popular enough people would just play Rebuild instead. The other thing is that I don't see myself aggressively mulliganing solid hands to get a hand with this card in it, but I hate the idea even more of having four dead cards in the deck. I can't cast it and I don't have a way to filter it out. If I draw this card at any point after the opening 7 it's probable that it will take up space in my hand for the remainder of the game, as will any subsequent leylines I may draw.

It would feel to me as though I was diluting my deck to put in an EXTREMELY situational card that although it can cut off their Plan A, leaves Plan B and Plan C intact and unmolested.

[Will]

I guess my main concern with regards to this card is that I don't see it winning the game for you all by itself, the way Leyline of the Void can against Ichorid. I'm sure it could be an annoyance, but a good Oath deck has more paths to victory than just Oath of Druids. It shuts down that plan, but the Tezz/Vault/Key remain intact as does Tinker/Robot and neither of those strategies care about this card. Losing Hurkyl's matters, but I think if this got popular enough people would just play Rebuild instead. The other thing is that I don't see myself aggressively mulliganing solid hands to get a hand with this card in it, but I hate the idea even more of having four dead cards in the deck. I can't cast it and I don't have a way to filter it out. If I draw this card at any point after the opening 7 it's probable that it will take up space in my hand for the remainder of the game, as will any subsequent leylines I may draw.

It would feel to me as though I was diluting my deck to put in an EXTREMELY situational card that although it can cut off their Plan A, leaves Plan B and Plan C intact and unmolested.

This card not doing the same thing as Leyline of the Void against Dredge is true in the sense that Oath could still win with Key Vault or Tinker big guy/ Jace potentially but it still does a lot.  You act as though Key Vault/ Tinker is the preferred way to go against Stax which really is not the case from my testing experience.  When the Oath deck doesn't get a turn 1/2 Oath Orchard then they usually do not win unless they're hand is completely aimed at winning through one of those routes which isn't as easy to get as a 2 mana enchantment is.  Making the argument that it won't single handedly ruin Oath in the way that Leyline of the Void does to Dredge is valid but Oath also isn't a 90-10 or whatever Dredge is against the field in game 1.  I understand that a hand of Leyline of the Void + 6 blanks could theoretically be kept against Dredge because you could ride it to victory but Oath plays real magic and half of your deck isn't blanked like it would be in the Dredge matchup. 

If your opponent is restricted to only being able to use Rebuild to get rid of your lock cards then you should be ecstatic.  1 mana is usually not a big deal unless you are playing against Stax which squeezes every mana out of the opponent or at least should if the game is going well.  Chalice also goes a long way now that it on 1 clears up a lot of chinks in your armor and helps force your opponent into unwinnable situations as well because not only will it shut down their potentially only answer to Leyline of Sanctity (Nature's Claim) but it also stops Key which slows down one of their alternate wins. 

With your final statement you make the assumption that nothing you can do will stop them from getting Key Vault or Tinker when the opposite is true because you are after all Stax.  Thorns or Spheres do a lot against those plans as the main issue with the Oath matchup is that they can steal wins off turn 1-2 Oath before you can play out all of your Lock pieces.  Once you have had 2-3 turns they shouldn't be able to play anything unmolested which is usually the case when Oath goes after anything but its signature card.  Another benefit to Leyline is that you dont' have to worry about playing Lodestone or Karn (In Espresso Stax) and then seeing them drop Oath and wreck you because they can't target you. 

[Stormanimagus]

I agree with the last poster. I think this will be especially strong out of the board in espresso stax sporting serum powder. Expect to see those versions of Golem MUD messing around with this toy pretty soon.

-Storm

[TheShop]

Doesn't this card simply force a blue opponent to play rebuild over h-call?  If so, it is functionally similar to a sphere of resistence in those matches.

I think the best Home for this card is in beater stax:  it helps you hold them off for 1 more turn when you beat them to death, otherwise, it looks like an oath sideboard answer

[Will]

Doesn't this card simply force a blue opponent to play rebuild over h-call?  If so, it is functionally similar to a sphere of resistence in those matches.

Not sure if thats exactly what it does for all Blue decks, probably Tezz. not Oath for sure though it changes much of their gameplan.  My thoughts are that if this is the end result then the card benefits the archetype as a whole out of fear if not anything else because if this card didn't exist I'm pretty sure most people would agree that Hurkyl's is better than Rebuild for most decks.

[Meddling Mike]

This card not doing the same thing as Leyline of the Void against Dredge is true in the sense that Oath could still win with Key Vault or Tinker big guy/ Jace potentially but it still does a lot.  You act as though Key Vault/ Tinker is the preferred way to go against Stax which really is not the case from my testing experience.  When the Oath deck doesn't get a turn 1/2 Oath Orchard then they usually do not win unless they're hand is completely aimed at winning through one of those routes which isn't as easy to get as a 2 mana enchantment is.  Making the argument that it won't single handedly ruin Oath in the way that Leyline of the Void does to Dredge is valid but Oath also isn't a 90-10 or whatever Dredge is against the field in game 1.  I understand that a hand of Leyline of the Void + 6 blanks could theoretically be kept against Dredge because you could ride it to victory but Oath plays real magic and half of your deck isn't blanked like it would be in the Dredge matchup.

It's tough to find a reliable point of comparison, It was the only other situation with a Leyline being brought in as a hate card, I realize that the analogy is not perfect. 

If your opponent is restricted to only being able to use Rebuild to get rid of your lock cards then you should be ecstatic.  1 mana is usually not a big deal unless you are playing against Stax which squeezes every mana out of the opponent or at least should if the game is going well.  Chalice also goes a long way now that it on 1 clears up a lot of chinks in your armor and helps force your opponent into unwinnable situations as well because not only will it shut down their potentially only answer to Leyline of Sanctity (Nature's Claim) but it also stops Key which slows down one of their alternate wins.

I get that rebuild is a worse answer to Stax than H.Recall, I guess the point was that people can compensate for this card without losing too much in the way of utility.

With your final statement you make the assumption that nothing you can do will stop them from getting Key Vault or Tinker when the opposite is true because you are after all Stax.  Thorns or Spheres do a lot against those plans as the main issue with the Oath matchup is that they can steal wins off turn 1-2 Oath before you can play out all of your Lock pieces.  Once you have had 2-3 turns they shouldn't be able to play anything unmolested which is usually the case when Oath goes after anything but its signature card.  Another benefit to Leyline is that you dont' have to worry about playing Lodestone or Karn (In Espresso Stax) and then seeing them drop Oath and wreck you because they can't target you. 

I wasn't saying that the rest of the deck was leaving plans B-C unmolested, I was referring to Leyline of Sanctity specifically does nothing to shut down those plans and is taking up slots that could be doing more, thereby diluting your ability to effectively stop plans B-C.

[Will]

I get that rebuild is a worse answer to Stax than H.Recall, I guess the point was that people can compensate for this card without losing too much in the way of utility.

The point of what I was saying is that it may change people from playing Hurkyl's to Rebuild which is huge for us.  If Hurkyl's has the chance to be totally shut down then Blue decks are in trouble and so they play Rebuild instead which if it weren't for this card would be worse.  There only needs to be enough people playing the card to create a buzz for this change to happen and once it does it will be hard for people to go back because even if Hurkyl's works against 9/10 Stax opponents that one bad beat where the opponent had Leyline of Sanctity out will stick out in their memory most likely therefore necessitating a change.  

I wasn't saying that the rest of the deck was leaving plans B-C unmolested, I was referring to Leyline of Sanctity specifically does nothing to shut down those plans and is taking up slots that could be doing more, thereby diluting your ability to effectively stop plans B-C.

You aren't getting what that means I don't think.  There are no cards that you can play that will stop every single plan by Oath especially as early as Leyline comes online (turn 0).  While the card won't answer everything it stops their best plan against Stax and that does a lot for us.  Think about Greater Gargadon which sees play and IMO isn't as good at stopping Oath as this card is.  The simple fact that it only shuts down Oath and Hurkyl's doesn't mean that it's not good enough but rather that it does as much if not more than the other sideboard options currently available do.  

[TheWhiteDragon]

I run oath predominantly lately, and I run a variety of sb cards.  I have claims of course, but I also run rebuild over hurkylls already.  The reason for this is that chalice @2 was the big plan to stop oath...and hurkyll's does nothing against that.  Also, vs tinker.dec, rebuild dodges the occassional misdirection that blue decks run. 

I think this leyline of sanctity is going to be great for stax (esp 5c that CAN cast it) because when it is dead, it can be filtered with bazaar, but when it is playable, esp turn 0, it is great vs discard, hurkylls, oath, tendrils, etc, and no other sb card can say that.  Gargadon/spawning pit stops oath, but at the cost of you not being able to play creatures.  GG/SP also does nothing vs tinker or tezz just like Leyline.  Jcap costs 6 (2 non-workshop) and can be countered.  It also isn't a guaranteed win vs decks with more than 3 wins, and esp with more than 3 critters g2/3.  I've resolved plenty of jcaps and died.    It is also decent hate vs tendrils, which gargadon/pit do nothing against, so it ups your available slots by doing double duty vs 2 decks.  Duplicant is decent vs tinker/oath/fish, but it is counterable, slow unless you also have double workshop (or turn 2, 6 mana), and often can just be too late vs a fast oath.  Dupe also does squat vs tendrils (barring tinker).

Overall, it is not the end-all-be-all vs storm/oath and the single handed wrecking ball that stax could use to make it invincible...but it IS a very good sb option vs 2 decks, one of which is a huge thorn in the side of stax, and great anti-hate vs a common sweeper card used by all blue decks.  Rebuild is a good response for hurkyll's being shut off (just like it was vs chalice @2), but it costs 1 more....and with tangles and a swarm of spheres, that extra 1 mana might never become available as the oath player falls behind turn after turn, unable to go nuts with its mox/orchard/oath opening thanks to LoS.

[credmond]

I don't really like the idea of MUD relying on Serum Powder to get this card reliably into play. What are the hard cast options for MUD. Coalition Relic?

With Leyline of Anticipation you can use Tolarian + expedition map to reliably hardcast it. Leyline of the Void has Urborg, Tomb Of Yawgmoth that you could run.

[pot pie man]

If Espresso Stax is already using serum powder, isn't leyline the exact card workshops wants to beat oath?