Does Fauna Shaman have a home in Elf Combo?

[MaximumCDawg]

I couldn't find a thread on vintage combo elves, so forgive me if this should be elsewhere.

Thread title says it all.  The new Survivial with legs happens to be a 2 cc elf that taps to tutor for more elves.  Does this have a home in elf combo along side Summoner's Pact? Should allow almost flawless combo by turn 3 with a larger variety of hands than before.

Here's an off-the-cuff decklist just for discussion purposes:

Land (12)
6 Green Fetches
5 Forest
1 Tiaga

Mana Dorks (12)
4 Arbor Elf
4 Llanowar Elf
4 Fyndhorn Elves

Combo Elves (12)
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Birchlore Ranger
4 Heritage Druid

Draw (8)
4 Skullclamp
4 Glimpse of Nature

Search (8)
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Fauna Shaman

Utility (6)
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Regal Force
2 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Qurion Ranger

Win Condition (2)
1 Grapeshot
1 Recoup

[TopSecret]

I'm no elf combo expert, but I think that Fauna Shaman is probably not that useful since it requires two mana, a set up turn, and an additional mana and a creature in hand to fetch a creature. All of that seems really slow when your goal is to combo out on turns 2-3. Once you get Symbiote or Ranger out, the ability to start filtering creatures into a win, assuming you have either clamp or glimpse, is kind of neat. But if you already have the engine in hand and you are relying on it resolving or it's already in play, shouldn't you already be able to go for the win in 1-2 turns anyway? If you really needed more tutor power, you could use Worldly Tutor or splash bayous for black tutors or splash white for Steelshaper's Gift or Stoneforge Mystic (you could maindeck a jitte FTW) or some one mana blue draw spells.

But if you keep getting into unfavorable situations where having a filter for an attrition war or a silver bullet strategy becomes necessary, he may be worth it. But you might also want to consider a different deck at that point.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Given the current meta, Elvish Scrapper appears to be an almost strictly better use of slots than Fauna Shaman. 

That aside, Recoup seems almost strictly inferior to just running a Tendrils.  You basically only need Grapeshot when there's a Platz in play.

[Delha]

I'd probably look to Survival itself if I wanted that sort of effect. The vulnerability, limited usage, and turn delay of Fauna Shama feel like they far outweigh the gains of being a Pact target and an Elf.

[MaximumCDawg]

Given the current meta, Elvish Scrapper appears to be an almost strictly better use of slots than Fauna Shaman.  

That aside, Recoup seems almost strictly inferior to just running a Tendrils.  You basically only need Grapeshot when there's a Platz in play.

I'm a huge fan of Recoup and Grapeshot.  (Tip'o'the Hippo to Adam Ramsey.)  The reason to run Recoup is that you want some way of recovering your Grapeshot if it gets duressed or something in the early game.  Recoup's flashback cost makes it just better than any other alternative, since you can win even if the Grapeshot AND the Recoup get nailed.

As for Tendrils, I think it's inferior to Grapeshot in this deck.  True, you don't need to storm out as much to go lethal with Tendrils.  But, when this deck stalls, it tends to stall over lack of mana, not over lack of creatures.  That is, you just can't find Nettle Sentinel and you're relying on tapping creatures you draw to keep going.  So, when this deck is able to generate 2BB and has already cast ten spells that turn, you're already going infinite, you know what I mean?  And once you are going off, as you say, Grapeshot handles Plat whereas Tendrils does not.  

Finally, to bring the two points together, running Grapeshot and Recoup lets me blast a Bob or Canonist early in the game, and still be able to combo out later because I know I can just draw into Recoup.

I'd probably look to Survival itself if I wanted that sort of effect. The vulnerability, limited usage, and turn delay of Fauna Shama feel like they far outweigh the gains of being a Pact target and an Elf.

You think?  I dunno, these all seem like pretty vague criticisms.  Too bad the darn card costs 10 bux already, or I'd buy a playset and try it out.  Well, as is, I guess it's proxy playtesting ahoy!

[Delha]

I'd probably look to Survival itself if I wanted that sort of effect. The vulnerability, limited usage, and turn delay of Fauna Shama feel like they far outweigh the gains of being a Pact target and an Elf.

You think?  I dunno, these all seem like pretty vague criticisms.  Too bad the darn card costs 10 bux already, or I'd buy a playset and try it out.  Well, as is, I guess it's proxy playtesting ahoy!

I do. At the end of the day, passing the turn sucks big time, especially when you're running a combo list, where every turn the control or prison opponent is probably making incremental gains on you through board position or card advantage.

[Troy_Costisick]

You think?  I dunno, these all seem like pretty vague criticisms.  Too bad the darn card costs 10 bux already, or I'd buy a playset and try it out.  Well, as is, I guess it's proxy playtesting ahoy!

I've tried it.  And I've found Elvish Harbinger to be just as good and since the Harbinger can tap for any color, it's nice to have for Grapeshot kills.

[policehq]

Grapeshot isn't even needed once except in weird situations (Platinum Angel hasn't been relevant for a while); there are often times where you can pay the mana for whatever Summoner's Pacts you played the turn before and still attack for lethal after comboing. Therefore, you certainly will not need to run an additional card, Recoup, to make sure you have Grapeshot.

I definitely don't imagine this card being useful at 4-of, but it could happen, I suppose. It doesn't have the fragility of Hermit Druid (susceptibility to graveyard hate), but it doesn't necessarily lead to a win upon activation, either.

[RecklessEmbermage]

I definitely think this has some merit. At two mana, it is an acceptable guy to tap with birchlore/heritage druid. It is not as fast as most of the cards in the deck though, so I would trim it down to whatever number is needed to get the redundancy you're looking for. 1? 2? 4? I dunno.

That said, the deck only needs a slight push to start rolling. I used to play wirewood herald in those slots and it worked out fine. Of course, you need clamp on the table (or the opponent killing it) for it to work, but with that much redundancy in the deck, a lot of things have to go wrong for you not to hit any set of combo enablers.

I'd play atleast one more symbiote.

[zeus-online]

Why not simply play time walk as the "kill" card?...With blue you could add ancestral
...and maybe even mind's desire.

[AmbivalentDuck]

There *will* be occasions where you can't attack for a win (Platz, etc).  A Grapeshot does make sense.  Time Walk definitely makes more sense than Recoup on account of it not being terrible in your opener.

[Troy_Costisick]

Why not simply play time walk as the "kill" card?...With blue you could add ancestral
...and maybe even mind's desire.

Grapeshot's advanatage is Storm.  Time Walk, Ancestral, Whatever Else can be countered by almost everything.  Mindbreak Trap is hardly played, so Grapeshot gets the nod from me.

[silvernail]

In my combo elf deck I run a Concordant Crossroads, an Empty the Warrens and a Tendrils for my kill slots.

[Delha]

In my combo elf deck I run a Concordant Crossroads, an Empty the Warrens and a Tendrils for my kill slots.

If you're including ETW, wouldn't Goblin Bombardment be better than Concordant Crossroads?

[policehq]

Ignoring all the discussion of means of killing your opponent, have you tried cutting Skullclamp in favor of Null Rod and focuing on Fauna Shaman's ability to tutor a Regal Force? Perhaps in that list, you would also want Vexing Shusher; I'm sure Mana Drain on Regal Force would suck.

[Delha]

Ignoring all the discussion of means of killing your opponent, have you tried cutting Skullclamp in favor of Null Rod and focuing on Fauna Shaman's ability to tutor a Regal Force? Perhaps in that list, you would also want Vexing Shusher; I'm sure Mana Drain on Regal Force would suck.

FWIW, they still get the mana either way. If you're casting Regal in the first place though, I assume you needed the draw, and losing that is indeed pretty brutal.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Gaea's Herald seems almost strictly better than Shusher in this context.

[silvernail]

In my combo elf deck I run a Concordant Crossroads, an Empty the Warrens and a Tendrils for my kill slots.

If you're including ETW, wouldn't Goblin Bombardment be better than Concordant Crossroads?

I also run a couple coat of arms and an overrun so that I can simply draw into an elf rush win like an average elf deck - so having 10-20 10/10 or bigger goblins all with haste tends to be a normal path to victory.

[Delha]

Gaea's Herald seems almost strictly better than Shusher in this context.

Hrm... Shusher helps you land Glimpse or Pact through countermagic though, which I'd honestly worry about even more than protecting Regal.

In my combo elf deck I run a Concordant Crossroads, an Empty the Warrens and a Tendrils for my kill slots.

If you're including ETW, wouldn't Goblin Bombardment be better than Concordant Crossroads?

I also run a couple coat of arms and an overrun so that I can simply draw into an elf rush win like an average elf deck - so having 10-20 10/10 or bigger goblins all with haste tends to be a normal path to victory.

If you've got 10-20 Goblins, why would you want a 2 card win (Crossroads + Coat) instead of a 1 card win (Bombardment)? Bombardment is also viable in a game of slow attrition by letting you kill Confidatnts/Welders/etc, lets you chump Golems and the like then dome them, and shuts down Orchard if you're desperate.

[silvernail]

Crossroads allows your elves do tap for mana etc which could be important. Also having the coat is helpful if you can't combo but can get a pile of elves.

[Delha]

Crossroads allows your elves do tap for mana etc which could be important. Also having the coat is helpful if you can't combo but can get a pile of elves.

I'll leave this as agree to disagree, and stop derailing.

[silvernail]

ya its a rogue deck anyway - why not throw some jank in the mix. I wouldn't be playing combo elves at larger events myself - I'd do it on local vintage nights though.