The purpose of this thread is to explore the power of Leylin of the Void + Helm of Obedience and determine what type of deck would most be able to maximize this interaction. To clarify, this does not mean that the deck has to have this combo be the primary win condition. Rather, the beauty of the combo is that LOTV interacts with many different decks and Helm of Obedience provides a way to turn this interaction into a win. 2nd_Lawl put it best in his primer on Dark Times:
“Yes Helm-line comes out in a majority of matches, Its generally worse then your Specific Sideboard Hate for those matches. Even if Helm-line is only 40%(these are made up numbers) Effective against the the feild (and 90% effectrive vs dredge) It beats playing a bunch of null rods which makes it so that you can practically Never win G1 Against Shops or Fish. The reason Helm Line is there g1 Is that its superior to be proactive against unknown opponents then to fill your deck with a bunch of "wrong" reactive cards like null rod. The Helm itself Hedges against the Leyline(which has SOME utility against practically every deck due to will, crucibe, and Tarmogoyf).”
Thus, while the search for the ideal deck may have this combo be the backbone of the deck, it may be discovered that this is not necessarily the case.
Reason for Discussion:
Leylin of the Void is the primary reason that this “combo” is even a valid topic of discussion. With the advent of Dredge.dec, Leylin of the Void has become a staple in Vintage and has even seen its way into the main 60 of several decks because even against non-dredge decks it still has the potential to be a powerful card in stopping graveyard tricks (welder, tarmogoyf, yagwill, etc…).
This powerful effect is made even more potent when it = I win with the inclusion of Helm of Obedience. Helm of Obedience clearly would not “make the cut” if it weren’t for its interaction with LOTV. Even so, Helm becomes a 1-card combo (assuming you’re already running LOTV) that wins for a cumulative of 5 colorless mana, which is definitely reasonable for vintage. Additionally, Helm can also perform some neat tricks on its own by snagging opponents creatures (incredibly powerful against oath), denying top deck tutors, and eliminating 1-ofs.
This does not mean that Helm should be played in every deck that plays LOTV, nor does it determine the correct number. However, it does it imply that Helm is definitely a viable option and, thus, the point of this thread.
Card Effectiveness:
LOTV + Helm: For those who may be unaware, the way this combo works is that LOTV exiles all cards on the way to the graveyard and Helm of Obedience keeps flipping cards off an opponent’s library until X cards or a creature card goes into a graveyard. Thus, by activating Helm for 1, with a LOTV in play, the opponent exiles their library.
LOTV: Significantly improves dredge g1 (usually considered auto-loss), helps against yawg-will, Goblin welder, crucible, tarmogoyf, etc… Namely, some of the most powerful effects in vintage are “shut off” for “free” until LOTV is dealt with.
Helm: The good thing is that as Vintage becomes more streamlined, the impact of helm becomes greater in three ways.
- First, in general, the more power a deck has, the more 1-ofs the deck possesses. Thus, each activation of Helm has the potential of removing a “win” card from the opponent’s deck.
- Second, this causes severe problems for top deck tutors, SDT, and other deck manipulators.
- Third, as decks become more streamlined, the power of creatures must exponentially increase in order to make the cut. Unless a creature has a ridiculous impact on the game either in terms of interactivity, power, or game plan, that creature doesn’t see play. Thus, each activation of Helm gives you the chance to snag cards like Confidant, Goblin Welder, DSC, which not only denies the opponent this ability but gives you the opportunity to abuse these cards. (imagine doing this against oath).
Current Deck Options:
Current decks that have utilized this combo to success have been Dark times and Two Card Monte and Keeper. For explanations of these decks please refer to these other links/posts.
Dark times:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40947.0Two Card Monte:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=41724.0Keeper:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=41533.0The first two decks have made this combo an integral part of the deck and utilize this combo in different ways where Two Card Monte uses this combo as the primary win and Dark Times uses it as the secondary win. Both decks ironically use the LOTV/Helm combo along with another 2 card combo all of which take up anywhere between 11-15 spots in the deck (19 if you count serums).
This is in contrast to Tom Dixon’s keeper list that shows that there is the potential to abuse this combo as an alternate win in more “established deck formats” using only 3 slots to establish a win.
Thus, the search for the “ideal” LOTV/Helm deck can be a new creation or an alteration/addition of a more established deck.
2 Card Combo
This section is not to discredit the use of any combination of cards. Rather, to recognize that different combinations of cards each have strengths/weaknesses that lend itself toward different decks/metas. This section will analyze some of the more popular 2 card combos currently being used.
Vault/Key (2 cards): This is a 2 card combo in which the two cards separately have marginal to 0 value. Key can be used to untap other artifacts like sol ring, metalworker, etc… which can have a decent impact on the game. Overall, this combo is incredibly efficient requiring only 4 colorless mana to play/activate. However, with MUD’s popularity/success, there is a lot of artifact hate. Both cards can be found by Tezz.
Dark depths/Hexmage (6-8 cards): This is a two card combo in which the two cards separately have marginal value. Vampire Hexmage can be used to mitigate Tezz, Jace, Tanglewire, Smokestack, etc… as well as a blocker/deterrent due to first strike. Overall, this combo is incredibly efficient requiring only a land drop and BB and an extra turn to win. With many decks packing wastelands and creature removal there is still a lot of hate (although this is easily gotten around in these decks).
Painter/Grindstone (5-7 cards): This is a two card combo in which painter provides very good utility. Overall this combo is decently efficient requiring 6 colorless mana to win. This is hit by the same hate that targets vault/key and similarly can be found easily by tezz.
Oath/Orchard/fatty (10 cards): This is a two card combo in which both cards provide value to the game state (orchard by mana fixing) and Oath by finding the win condition directly. Overall this is an incredibly efficient combo requiring only 1G to win. Because of the power of this deck and the rise of Nature’s claim, trygon’s predator, etc… there is starting to be more and more hate.
Leyline/Helm (5-8 carrds): This is a two card combo in which both cards have marginal-decent value on the game state. This is an decently efficient combo requiring either 5 colorless or 7BB mana to activate (obviously the first is preferable). This combo receives sufficient splash hate due to Oath and MUD.
Potential Deck Options:
The style of play with this combo can take 3 different forms.
A. Mull/serum’s until you start with Leylin in play
B. You have enough acceleration to search and cast both leylin/Helm
C. You have it as supplemental combo where IF you start with leylin THEN you play Helm.
I’ll analyze each of these 3 in terms of potential deck ideas that I think fit into each category.
A. Mull/Serum route.
Two Card Monte 2011: Volton00x’s version
4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Helm of Obedience
3 Dark Confidant
3 Painter’s Servant
3 Grindstone
4 Goblin Welder
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Intuition
3 Mox Opal
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
SB
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Dark Confidant
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Nature's Claim
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
Random/jank combo:
4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Dark Rituall
3 Cabal Ritual
4 duress
3 thoughtseize
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Demonic Consultation
4 Spoils of the Vault
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 night’s whisper
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
13 swamps
(clearly this list is not tournament ready, but just thrown together to show possibility of straight combo)
B. Tutor/Cast
Dark Times 2nd_lawl:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Dark Confidant
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Necropotence
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Dark Depths
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
11 Swamp
SB:
2 Bitterblossom
2 Emissary of Despair
1 Trinisphere
1 Darkblast
1 Pithing Needle
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Null Rod
1 Engineered Plague
1 Sadistic Sacrament
C. If Start with then Play it:
Keeper – Tom Dixon
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Brainstorm
1 Fire/Ice
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
3 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Spell Pierce
1 Black Lotus
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
4 City of Brass
1 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Mind Twist
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Spell Pierce
Dark Oath 2011:
4x Oath of Druids
3x LOTV
1x Helm of Obedience
2x Creature that wins
1x Demonic tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
3x Grim Tutor
1x Tinker
1x Brainstorm
1x Ancestral Recall
1x ponder
3x Night’s Whisper
4x Spell Pierce
4x Force of Will
3x mana drain
1x Chain of vapor
1x Hurkyl’s recall
4x Dark Ritual
1x black lotus
5x Mox’s
1x Lotus Petal
4x Forbidden Orchard
1x Swamp
2x Island
2x Underground sea
3x polluted delta
1x scalding tarn
1x tropical island
These decks, along with the analysis provided up until this point is merely to spurn discussion. I feel that this combination of cards has very strong merit. In fact, I believe that given the right deck it is better than vault/key which is currently the fallback combo that everyone seems to be using. However, I could be completely wrong on this. Lets discuss the merits and see what meta’s, which decks, and in what combination should these cards be utilized to maximum effect.
P.S. I have been away from Magic since 2005 so I apologize if some of my assumptions are wrong and obviously my card selections are incredibly outdated. Please don’t hold this against this thread as a whole.
