Leyline of Anticipation.dec

[MaximumCDawg]

I just thought I'd leave this here.

On-the-Draw Surprise (8)

4 Leyline of Anticipation
4 Gemstone Caverns

Discard (9)

2 Piracy Charm
3 Thoughtseize
1 Mind Twist
1 Raven’s Crime
2 Hymn to Torach

Disruption (15)

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Mana Drain
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Diabolic Edict

Other (13)

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obediance
1 Tinker
1 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Sensei’s Top
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation

Mana (18)

1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Island
1 Swamp

It's rough, and currently 63 cards instead of 60, but I'm facinated by the concept of opening on Leyline, Gemstone, Thoughtseize, Chalice for 0 on the draw.  Piracy Charm kills Bob and hits opponent for a discard on his end step, and unlike Funeral Charm, it pitches to FOW. 

In concept, the deck wants to mulligan for a Leyline of Anticipation or Gemstone Cavern and then attack the opponent during his first upkeep.  The goal is either to squirt out Helm-Leyline off an early Mana Drain or to get the opponent in a situation where you can retrace Raven's Crime during his upkeep to nail each card he draws. 

Anyone tried something like this in practice yet?

[AmbivalentDuck]

While I know you're "budget," this kind of deck practically begs for Bazaar as an outlet for cycling through some of this stuff later in the game.

[TheBrassMan]

Frantic Search will get you about the same result on the cheap, if that's what you're looking for

[waffles]

I just thought I'd leave this here.

On-the-Draw Surprise (8)

4 Leyline of Anticipation
4 Gemstone Caverns

Discard (9)

2 Piracy Charm
3 Thoughtseize
1 Mind Twist
1 Raven’s Crime
2 Hymn to Torach

Disruption (15)

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Mana Drain
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Diabolic Edict

Other (13)

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obediance
1 Tinker
1 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Sensei’s Top
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation

Mana (18)

1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Island
1 Swamp

It's rough, and currently 63 cards instead of 60, but I'm facinated by the concept of opening on Leyline, Gemstone, Thoughtseize, Chalice for 0 on the draw.  Piracy Charm kills Bob and hits opponent for a discard on his end step, and unlike Funeral Charm, it pitches to FOW. 

In concept, the deck wants to mulligan for a Leyline of Anticipation or Gemstone Cavern and then attack the opponent during his first upkeep.  The goal is either to squirt out Helm-Leyline off an early Mana Drain or to get the opponent in a situation where you can retrace Raven's Crime during his upkeep to nail each card he draws. 

Anyone tried something like this in practice yet?

I tried in theory and a little practice, although in a different manner using a modified landless belcher shell, with null profusion as my draw engine and discard as a means of protection.

[MaximumCDawg]

Anyone tried something like this in practice yet?

I tried in theory and a little practice, although in a different manner using a modified landless belcher shell, with null profusion as my draw engine and discard as a means of protection.
[/quote]

Did you learn anything about Leyline or this sort of deck in your practicing?

[waffles]

Anyone tried something like this in practice yet?

I tried in theory and a little practice, although in a different manner using a modified landless belcher shell, with null profusion as my draw engine and discard as a means of protection.

Did you learn anything about Leyline or this sort of deck in your practicing?
[/quote]

quite a bit, when leyline was down, it was mindnumbingly wrong, like flash/hulk was. The positives are, discard is nuts at instant speed, you have the ablity to do a discard lock on them provided you have the cards to do so. i found ravens crime could be pretty brutal for maintaining the softlock. having the ability to cast chalice at instant speed is pretty nice too. leyline pretty much makes being on the draw not really an issue. But when it wasnt down the deck just seemed lacking and it was a scramble to find it and try to resolve it. My issues were i couldnt get leyline consistanly and null profusion was hard to use.The thread is here (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40879.0)

[TopSecret]

Discard plus Leyline of Anticipation doesn't seem that bad. I'm pretty sure it still sucks, but it's the best use I've heard for Leyline so far. Hell, maybe I'm wrong. EOT Mind Twist? How can something be wrong if it feels so right?

I think if you want this idea to be successful, barring an uber combo no one else has cited, you should probably just start with a deck that functions well without Leyline which also sports discard, and then try adding Leyline. It looks like you tried it the other way around. I do not think Leyline is strong enough to warrant building around it to any real extent. Thoughtseize is pretty decent. Raven's Crime is ok in the right deck. Just try building a decent deck around those card and other cards that are good, then add the Leylines afterwards.

Or if you really want to go for broke, use Mindbreak Trap. Turn zero Leyline, followed by mox, Thoughtseize, Mindbreak Trap on their spell? GOD. DAMN.

PS: You should probably drop Gemstone. I can't think of any reason to ever play it. It seems almost inherently win more to me. If you're going to do Gemstone, you need to also play Overmaster. That way when you draw The God Hand, you can play turn zero Leyline, Gemstone, Lotus, Recall yourself into more moxes to play, then yell OVERMASTER, look the opponent in the eyes and wait until they blink, and then windmill slam your four point Mind Twist to hit all their lands before they even get a play phase.

"Trickery can't defeat raw power."
                             - Matoc, lavamancer

[AmbivalentDuck]

Or if you really want to go for broke, use Mindbreak Trap. Turn zero Leyline, followed by mox, Thoughtseize, Mindbreak Trap on their spell? GOD. DAMN.

This does seem quite good.

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, Jace (even little Jace) during your opponent's end step seems quite good.  Getting to use a Planeswalker you cast during your opponent's end step twice as often seems good.

[MaximumCDawg]

@Mindbreak - It does not have storm.  Mindbreak counts only spells your OPPONENT has cast.  So it does not help to storm out yourself before you cast it.

@Jace - I don't see how Leyline lets Jace activate during your opponent's turn.  Can you 'splain?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Each planeswalker has a number of activated abilities on it. You can play one of these abilities only at the time you could play a sorcery, and only if none of that planeswalker's abilities have been played yet that turn.

Sorceries can be played at any time you could play an instant.  Therefore, by extension, planeswalker abilities can be played during turns other than yours?

Edit: Totally lame!  The planeswalker faq and the comprehensive rules contradict each other, but the rules obviously win.

606.3. A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent he or she controls any time he or she has
priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of his or her turn, but only if no player has
previously activated a loyalty ability of that permanent that turn.

[MaximumCDawg]

In any event, Leyline does not say "the time you can play sorceries is now whenever you could play an instant;" rather it allows you to "cast nonland cards" anytime you could cast an instant.  So I don't see how, textually, planeswalkers get to go along for the ride.  As you say, the comprehensive rules clarify.

I think I had similar issues with Suspend and Mobius Strip when I first started playing Magic again.  Mobius Strip says you can play cards on top of your graveyard as if they were in your hand - so it would seem you can keep replaying your suspend cards as much as you like.  Turns out, not so much.

[AmbivalentDuck]

602.5d Activated abilities that read “Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery”
mean the player must follow the timing rules for casting a sorcery spell, though the ability isn’t
actually a sorcery. The player doesn’t actually need to have a sorcery card that he or she could
cast.

It appears that you could play abilities with the quoted restriction under Vedalken Orrery/Leyline of Anticipation, but Planeswalker abilities have been errata-ed to be specific to your turn.  The FAQ is just misleading since it appears that rule 602.5d used to be the very similar rule 212.7e which actually specified the main phase of your own turn.

[Klep]

It appears that you could play abilities with the quoted restriction under Vedalken Orrery/Leyline of Anticipation, but Planeswalker abilities have been errata-ed to be specific to your turn.  The FAQ is just misleading since it appears that rule 602.5d used to be the very similar rule 212.7e which actually specified the main phase of your own turn.

307.5 If a spell, ability, or effect states that a player can do something only any time he or she could cast a sorcery, it means only that the player must have priority, it must be during the main phase of his or her turn, and the stack must be empty. The player doesn't need to have a sorcery he or she could actually cast.  Effects that would prevent that player from casting a spell or casting a sorcery don't affect the player's capability to perform that action (unless the action is actually casting a spell or casting a sorcery).

This means that that timing restriction on an ability has nothing to do with whether you could actually cast a sorcery or not.  It only means that in order to play the ability, you must have priority, it must be your main phase, and the stack must be empty.

EDIT: I suppose, for some additional credibility, I should mention that I am a level 1 judge.

[AmbivalentDuck]

So the result is that you can play a sorcery during your opponent's end step with Leyline down, but bizarrely could not activate Cabal Interrogator. 

[Anusien]

FAQs are not kept up to date. The Comprehensive Rules are. They changed the way loyalty abilities worked sometime this year to close a weird loophole.

[ReubenG]

I have wanted to put together a Leyline of Anticipation deck, just haven't put the time in.

One thought I had, was with playing 8 Leylines, you may want to consider Chrome Mox to imprint extra Leylines to for mana.

[MaximumCDawg]

Here's some other ideas for Leyline.dec!  How about the ol' opulecense kill?

Leylines (8)

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Anticipation

Win Con (5)

3 Helm of Awakening
2 Opulesence

Tutor / CA (3)

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Sensei’s Top

Discard (6)

3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Raven's Crime

Permission (10)

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Spell Pierce

Removal (5)

3 Vindicate
1 Echoing Truth
1 Diabolic Edict

Mana (22)

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Or, in recognition of how sick Leyline+LftL+Raven's Crime+Land is, what about a Dark Timeish build?

Leylines (8)

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Anticipation

Win Con (7)

3 Helm of Awakening
1 Dark Depths
3 Vampire Hexmage

Tutor / CA (7)

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Living Wish
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Dark Confidant

Discard (5)

3 Thoughtseize
2 Raven's Crime

Permission (8)

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce

Other (3)

1 Echoing Truth
1 Curfew
1 Life from the Loam

Mana (22)

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Wishboard (4)
1 Dark Depths
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Dark Confidant
1 Trygon Predator

The thing I like about the idea of running a full 8 leylines is that you can probably rely on starting the game either hosing Yawgwill and Dredge or having everything played at instant speed.  That's pretty good.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Or, in recognition of how sick Leyline+LftL+Raven's Crime+Land is, what about a Dark Timeish build?

Emptying your opponent's hand in order to make that something like a soft lock is not trivial.  Could you use something like Chain of Smog to empty both players' hands?

[waffles]

Or, in recognition of how sick Leyline+LftL+Raven's Crime+Land is, what about a Dark Timeish build?

Emptying your opponent's hand in order to make that something like a soft lock is not trivial.  Could you use something like Chain of Smog to empty both players' hands?

abandon hope may be useful, as for chain of smog, there is no guarantee that they will copy it.

Side note anyone ever try Encroach? (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15175)

[MaximumCDawg]

Or, in recognition of how sick Leyline+LftL+Raven's Crime+Land is, what about a Dark Timeish build?

Emptying your opponent's hand in order to make that something like a soft lock is not trivial.  Could you use something like Chain of Smog to empty both players' hands?

abandon hope may be useful, as for chain of smog, there is no guarantee that they will copy it.

Side note anyone ever try Encroach? (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15175)

I've never wanted Encroach in a format where I can run Wasteland. 

@Abandon Hope = The card you want is Mind Twist.  Both are bad because they're too mana hungry.
@Chain of Smog = I would only run these after maxing out Hymn to Torach and Gerrard's Verdict, neither of which I am doing yet.  I don't think the slim chance I'll get to empty both hands is worth the risk of getting stripped of defenses and then topdeck'd.  Plus, the random nature of Hymn is so much more disruptive.

[waffles]

Or, in recognition of how sick Leyline+LftL+Raven's Crime+Land is, what about a Dark Timeish build?

Emptying your opponent's hand in order to make that something like a soft lock is not trivial.  Could you use something like Chain of Smog to empty both players' hands?

abandon hope may be useful, as for chain of smog, there is no guarantee that they will copy it.

Side note anyone ever try Encroach? (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=15175)

I've never wanted Encroach in a format where I can run Wasteland.  

Ahh, good points, but i  do question the usefulness of encroach, wouldnt this add to the 5 wastes you already have, the merit i see in encroach is that they cant use the land in the first place. though it opens up to being countered, a plus, well to me since it draws out one of their counters. i do not support the replacement of waste, but merely a supplement to it.

[serracollector]

I just wanted to point out something I saw, and correct me if I am wrong, but the sorcery, idea's unbound, could be really useful with leyline, cast it EOT, and not have to chuck 3 until your EOT, more or less an ancestral, for 1 turn.  Maybe a viable draw engine for the LftL/Ravens Crime combo, not to mention you can just skip 1 of the draws, get loam back, get 3 lands, and discard them if you have to.

[MaximumCDawg]

Ideas Unbound is great and all, but it has no special synergy with the sort of things this deck is trying to do.  I have a hard time fitting more than one or two Raven's Crimes / LftL anyway, so you're unlikely to hit it.  Now, I've always wanted to try Ideas out in a Cerebral Assassin-style deck, but they went and unrestricted Frantic Search, so that's probably a bust, too.

Anyway, I've been goldfishing with these decks and have miserable results.  I feel like Leyline of Anticipation just isn't doing jack all for me most of the time.  Sure, it is nice to be able to wait till end of turn to decide whether to use Sol Ring or hold back mana for Spell Pierce turn 1, but beyond that, it hasn't been very relevant.  I am intrueged by the idea of Leylines + Opulecense, but I'm wondering if I would be better off using a BW aggro deck running Sanctity and Void instead of BU using Anticipation.  Hits two of the more popular top performing decks (Oath and Dredge) pretty hard pre-sideboard, potentially gives storm decks trouble... I dunno.

[waffles]

Ideas Unbound is great and all, but it has no special synergy with the sort of things this deck is trying to do.  I have a hard time fitting more than one or two Raven's Crimes / LftL anyway, so you're unlikely to hit it.  Now, I've always wanted to try Ideas out in a Cerebral Assassin-style deck, but they went and unrestricted Frantic Search, so that's probably a bust, too.

Anyway, I've been goldfishing with these decks and have miserable results.  I feel like Leyline of Anticipation just isn't doing jack all for me most of the time.  Sure, it is nice to be able to wait till end of turn to decide whether to use Sol Ring or hold back mana for Spell Pierce turn 1, but beyond that, it hasn't been very relevant.  I am intrueged by the idea of Leylines + Opulecense, but I'm wondering if I would be better off using a BW aggro deck running Sanctity and Void instead of BU using Anticipation.  Hits two of the more popular top performing decks (Oath and Dredge) pretty hard pre-sideboard, potentially gives storm decks trouble... I dunno.

That was one of my issues, if the leyline wasnt on turn 0 the deck was kind of underwelming, my aim was to scramble to get it down, but in the ended up put the idea on the back burner, though i may pick it back up and try using yaw bargin for the draw engine.