Laboratory Maniac

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

There are tons of situations where it’s better than Iona for sure. It potentially ends the game immediately, no lucky top deck option for opponent. Though I assume you use the, now standard, sun titan plan to get to that end. Why is it better than flame-kin? Might not be without some radicle rebuilding, but it does get around some hate cards people bring in. It’ll take some clever building and unique ideas for sure.

I haven't checked up on the rulings of this card, but it seems like in some ways this card is more vulnerable to lucky topdecks than Iona. Usually you can name blue to avoid getting your Iona bounced. If they have a bounce removal spell and you deck yourself trying to win with Laboratory Maniac you might end up losing the game in response to your bazaar activation. Basically, this guy does nothing to protect himself whatsoever.

Ending the game immediately (this guy), opposed to soft lock piece(iona) and passing the turn, is definitely less vulnerable to a lucky top deck. You can’t argue against that. Obviously you don't just throw this thing in some type of iona ichorid list.

I have no idea what the "if they have a bounce removal spell they can kill you with draw on the stack” thing is about, if you have access to your entire grave yard, there are at least 4x cabal therapy happening. Unless you're awful at the game I don't see a bounce spell played from hand being an issue.  If you’re that concerned about it run mindslicer.
I guess if they have a top in play you can slow clap and say “nice job champ”. But I don’t see anyone keeping a hand thinking “turn one top against dredge, I can find ET with that!”

Literally the only question is: can the deck be reworked to make this guy better than flame-kin?

[Meddling Mike]

Ending the game immediately (this guy), opposed to soft lock piece(iona) and passing the turn, is definitely less vulnerable to a lucky top deck. You can’t argue against that. Obviously you don't just throw this thing in some type of iona ichorid list.

I have no idea what the "if they have a bounce removal spell they can kill you with draw on the stack” thing is about, if you have access to your entire grave yard, there are at least 4x cabal therapy happening. Unless you're awful at the game I don't see a bounce spell played from hand being an issue.  If you’re that concerned about it run mindslicer.
I guess if they have a top in play you can slow clap and say “nice job champ”. But I don’t see anyone keeping a hand thinking “turn one top against dredge, I can find ET with that!”

Literally the only question is: can the deck be reworked to make this guy better than flame-kin?
[/quote]

So if you have your entire deck milled already and you've therapied your opponent and you have access to a draw once you get this thing into play then you win without having to pass the turn, but I don't think you're always going to have those luxuries. I could see situations where you can dredge return this guy into play, but you haven't had the chance to mill your whole deck yet, or you have milled your whole deck, but you've used your Bazaar of Baghdad in the process and don't have another draw at your disposal and you would have to pass the turn.

[Stormanimagus]

I don't understand why people's first inclination is to use this guy in dredge anyway. And in lieu of running 4 Bridge from Below? I don't know who originally made that suggestion, but it is downright ludicrous. The whole point of dredge is to have a win condition that laughs at Force of Will yes? Depending on your Dread return to resolve in order to apply ANY pressure on your opponent does not a successful Dredge deck make. Having your Dread Return countered and still producing 6 2/2's in the process sounds more like it. Opponent's resources burned? check. 12 damage on the board for next turn? check.

People often fail to realize that Magic, and in turn Vintage, is just a game of resources. Resource management and resource denial. All the cute synergies in the world don't mean diddly-poo if you can't leverage your resources over your opponents. Why do so many Vintage players hang their heads in disgust when they lose a counter-war then a game? That is magic folks. It is ALL about winning that counter war, or pushing through that Trygon past spheres in time to kill that lethal Lodestone. It is not about winning with cute and fortuitous synergies. Save that for casual. Winning in Vintage is about being able to execute your game-plan.

Ending that rant, let's get back to this guy. With my rant in mind, the trick is to construct a deck where executing the game-plan of "combo-ing out" with this guy is feasible and advantageous when compared with the other options out there. As of now the best thing I can think of is Demonic Consultation. That combo costs 4 total mana and can be done on the upkeep before the draw so you only really need 3 mana up (First you cast the Maniac on your turn and then on your next upkeep you play the DC). That is an amazing combo and the only problem is that DC is restricted. Now, Time Vault is restricted, but the TV/Key combo still exists. Could this combo still work though one of its pieces is restricted?

As for the fear of someone destroying this guy in response to your "win?" Are we really making this argument? If you design your deck well and play the match correctly you should rarely be losing to those sorts of shenanigans. Again, I refer you to the rant I made. If your opponent out counters you so they are in the clear to play their Swords to Plowshares or whatever then they simply out-countered you. It is your responsibility to know your deck and only "go for it" when you believe you can. I think a well designed deck to abuse this card needs a lot of control redundancy and a way to resolve this guy vs. Shops are a plan B. Doomsday is intriguing as it is only a 3 mana spell that facilitate this guy and it can run a secondary stack if playing this guy doesn't make sense.

I'd like to hear well thought through approaches to building with this guy and not complaints as to how he's so easy to disrupt. True combo cards always are, but they also have tremendous power. One could argue that a deck relying solely on Blightsteel Colossus to win (ala Stephen Menendian's Champs deck) is 1 Steel Sabotage from disaster. Does this make running Tinker--> Colossus bad? Absolutely not. Does this make Steel Sabotage preferable to other hate options vs. his deck? No. If you are leaving a full compliment of Sabotage in your deck just to hate on BSC then you are missing what is important in that match-up. What is important is control of the counter wars and a card that achieves this is Flusterstorm. That is the kryptonite to such a deck and not Steel Sabotage. SS treats the symptoms of the disease while Flusterstorm treats the disease as a whole.

I hope that these comments are constructive in helping people to think about new cards and new ideas in a healthy manner. I just want people to really consider all angles of new card X before jumping on all the reasons it is awful or good for that matter.

-Storm

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@MM
There are a lot of simple answers to those solutions.
Dread return a sun titan instead of this guy if he's not going to win you the game. If for some reason you think this guy is going to get bounced when you pass the turn, target the troll instead. Next turn attack with it and don’t do the thing that will kill you. Basicly, don't just wing this guy out there for no reason obviously.


I honestly don't know why you'd return this guy if you weren't winning that turn except for some extreme corner case scenarios <-- this means he won’t be in play unless you’ve run over your entire deck. You’ve seen the opponents hand a bit at this point and can play around ET, or whatever, if it seems likely through 3+ therapies. Honestly, It seems like a product of poor playing if you would be losing consistently with this condition met. Its a dredge deck and its done an entire decks worth of dredging. The “you don’t have another draw at your disposal” seem s like a deck building issue. Build the deck to do it. I suspect it would have something to do with deep anal in yard and titaning a lotus of LED. Or the cephalid, that’s one more draw to dredge than bazaar.
^this does point to the thing that I keep saying is the real question: can the deck be reworked to make this guy better than flame-kin?

probably not, but I'm up for the challange.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@ Storm I'm going to attempt to answer some of your dredge related questions a clear up some things I think you've miss understood.

Q. I don't know who originally made that suggestion, but it is downright ludicrous.
A. Rich shay, although i originally missed it in his OP as well,and I wouldn’t say ludicrous. It fits with the decks natural behavior. Not to mention it’s in an archetype where it’s not obviously inferior to vault/key as a win con.

Q. The whole point of dredge is to have a win condition that laughs at Force of Will yes?
A. pretty much anything will laugh at FOW because of all the therapies. It has nothing to do with the selected win con.

Storm: Depending on your Dread return to resolve in order to apply ANY pressure on your opponent does not a successful Dredge deck make.
HYH: the tokens still get made, I’d still play BFB, if facilitates therapies and dread returning; and you’re right it doesn’t. Ripping your opponent’s hand apart and generating ridiculous CA is what makes it. This will still do this…. more so actually. I think you made some assumption about this deck definitely not running BFB. Seeing as no one has purposed a deck list (and if anyone did this soon I’d probably assume it’s an untested theoretical pile of crap) you can’t make major assumptions like that. I realize that Rich initially mentioned running 0 bfb as a possibility, but they're actually pretty essential for sacing dudes for flashback costs.

[The Atog Lord]

Let me clarify a point. I am not suggesting cutting Bridge from Below from Dredge. That card is excellent, and a primary mechanism for Dredge to defeat Workshop decks. No, I am saying that Flame Kin Zealot as a kill condition depends on the opponent being unable to remove your Bridges. However, sometimes the opponent can in fact remove them. Maybe he has a Mogg Fanatic or an Ingot Chewer, for example. Then, winning via FKZ becomes much more difficult. But you can still return the Maniac via some Blood Ghasts, and then perhaps Dredge out using a Fatestitcher.

So, I don't think Dredge decks would cut Bridges, even with the Maniac. No, I think that the Maniac gives those decks some resiliency should those Bridges get removed.

[Diakonov]

This card was made for Hermit Druid.  UBG discard, counterspells, and mana accel.  Sideboard in some Mental Missteps and Nature's Claims.  Done.

[Stormanimagus]

This card was made for Hermit Druid.  UBG discard, counterspells, and mana accel.  Sideboard in some Mental Missteps and Nature's Claims.  Done.

What, you mean a deck like this one?

Hermit Maniac

Land (12):
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Underground Sea

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt

Artifact Creaturesm (1):
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Creatures (13):
4 Hermit Druid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Laboratory  Maniac
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Instants (16):
4 Force of Will
1 Nature’s Claim
4 Flusterstorm
4 Mental Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries (10):
4 Green Sun Zenith
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
1 Deep Analysis
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor

Sideboard
3 Nature’s Claim
1 Darkblast
2 Dismember
4 Leyline Of The Void
2 Yixlid Jailer
3 Trygon Predator

[MaximumCDawg]

Upon further reflection, I'm convinced that the way to use Laboratory Maniac is with Mirror of Fate.  Specifically, have one Maniac in the sideboard and a Mirror or two in your maindeck.  You get out the Mirror, crack it to replace your library with the Maniac, draw and play him, then win next time you draw.  Is this fragile?  As much or moreso than Hermit Druid, sure, but only ONE card in your deck need be dedicated to the combo.  That's pretty slick.  If Bob is out, combo is even easier; Mirror gets Maniac and Gitaxian Probe, draw both, win.  I also note that Mirror of Fate, at 5, is easy to tutor out by using Transmute Artifact on a Grim Monolith.

I will be going into the lab to work on this deck soon.

EDIT - Except the laboratory staff inform me that since the new "Exile" rules went into effect, Mirror can't work with your sideboard.  Thats alot of poop right there.  Nevermind, I guess.

EDIT 2 - Though, perhaps you could exile the Maniac from your library and then stack it the same way.  You lose the whole benefit of the one-slot win condition that way, though.

[Diakonov]

What, you mean a deck like this one?

Yes, exactly.  That list looks great.

You could probably run 1 or 2 more therapies, since you'll have the Hermit Druid to sack as well.

[Stormanimagus]

What, you mean a deck like this one?

Yes, exactly.  That list looks great.

You could probably run 1 or 2 more therapies, since you'll have the Hermit Druid to sack as well.

Well the reason you may only need 1 is because you'll always hit it in milling, but I suppose you could name the wrong thing the first time?

-Storm

[brokenbacon]

What, you mean a deck like this one?

Hermit Maniac

Land (12):
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Underground Sea

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt

Artifact Creaturesm (1):
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Creatures (13):
4 Hermit Druid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Laboratory  Maniac
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Instants (16):
4 Force of Will
1 Nature’s Claim
4 Flusterstorm
4 Mental Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries (10):
4 Green Sun Zenith
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
1 Deep Analysis
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor

Sideboard
3 Nature's Claim
1 Darkblast
2 Dismember
4 Leyline Of The Void
2 Yixlid Jailer
3 Trygon Predator

This list is solid. Just to clarify though, the BSC shuffles back but the Deep Analysis draws two and ignores that, correct?
Seriously though I was looking forward to something using Lab Maniac, this looks like the nuts. Maybe fewer Flusterstorm, but that might be a personal opinion.

[Stormanimagus]

What, you mean a deck like this one?

Hermit Maniac

Land (12):
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Underground Sea

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt

Artifact Creaturesm (1):
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Creatures (13):
4 Hermit Druid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Laboratory  Maniac
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Instants (16):
4 Force of Will
1 Nature’s Claim
4 Flusterstorm
4 Mental Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries (10):
4 Green Sun Zenith
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
1 Deep Analysis
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor

Sideboard
3 Nature's Claim
1 Darkblast
2 Dismember
4 Leyline Of The Void
2 Yixlid Jailer
3 Trygon Predator

This list is solid. Just to clarify though, the BSC shuffles back but the Deep Analysis draws two and ignores that, correct?
Seriously though I was looking forward to something using Lab Maniac, this looks like the nuts. Maybe fewer Flusterstorm, but that might be a personal opinion.

Yes, and BSC helps you to avoid unwanted decking (not sure exactly when that circumstance is, but it might come up).

4 Flusterstorm may be overkill, but it really helps to ensure the resolution of Hermit Druid and also ensures that no tricks will resolve post druid (STP on Maniac in response to Deep Analysis, or Ancestral targeting me in response to Dread Return). I like to think of Flusterstorm as the best "insurance" out there vs. Blue decks. The reason I'm ok with the dead slots vs. Shops is that you should be winning a lot of game 1's vs. Shops simply because you are so blazing fast and only require a 2 CMC creature and one more turn to win. Hermit dodges the 4 Thorns they might be playing and you have plenty of accel to cast this guy on turn 1 even through a single Sphere. I'm really not too worried about Shops until they bring the hate in game 2 and then I have other threats coming out of the board like Predator and Nature's Claim.

-Storm

[Diakonov]

Actually, I'd probably prefer Spell Pierce over Flusterstorm so you can hit spheres and whatnot.  Maybe a few of both.

[psyburat]

What about Oath of Druids with him as your singleton creature?

Ctrl+F "Oath", find my opinion already stated, quote to reiterate point.  If you're too concerned about having only one creature to Oath into make sure you include lots of Jace to return him to deck and provide alternate win condition.  Might also make Impulse a possibility in Oath of Druids again if you can just slap this guy on the bottom.

[Diakonov]

What about Oath of Druids with him as your singleton creature?

Ctrl+F "Oath", find my opinion already stated, quote to reiterate point.  If you're too concerned about having only one creature to Oath into make sure you include lots of Jace to return him to deck and provide alternate win condition.  Might also make Impulse a possibility in Oath of Druids again if you can just slap this guy on the bottom.

Hermit Druid is equally fast to activate, and essentially guarantees you the opportunity to win that turn.

[LSD25]

would love it in oath if i didnt have to cut tinker bot for it.  the fact that its x/2 and you dont need your gy makes it better than hermit.  wheel of sun and moon just gets better and better. 

[evouga]

Why no Sensei's Divining Top? It's a great card generally and draws a card for no mana when you're comboing out.

[psyburat]

What about Oath of Druids with him as your singleton creature?

Ctrl+F "Oath", find my opinion already stated, quote to reiterate point.  If you're too concerned about having only one creature to Oath into make sure you include lots of Jace to return him to deck and provide alternate win condition.  Might also make Impulse a possibility in Oath of Druids again if you can just slap this guy on the bottom.

Hermit Druid is equally fast to activate, and essentially guarantees you the opportunity to win that turn.

Yeah, except that you have to resolve both Druid and Dread Return, dodge graveyard hate, Needles, and overall have a larger shell to support the combo.  If this were a valid argument, why does Oath exist as a Tier 2 archetype much more often than Hermit?

[Diakonov]

What about Oath of Druids with him as your singleton creature?

Ctrl+F "Oath", find my opinion already stated, quote to reiterate point.  If you're too concerned about having only one creature to Oath into make sure you include lots of Jace to return him to deck and provide alternate win condition.  Might also make Impulse a possibility in Oath of Druids again if you can just slap this guy on the bottom.

Hermit Druid is equally fast to activate, and essentially guarantees you the opportunity to win that turn.

Yeah, except that you have to resolve both Druid and Dread Return, dodge graveyard hate, Needles, and overall have a larger shell to support the combo.  If this were a valid argument, why does Oath exist as a Tier 2 archetype much more often than Hermit?

Currently, Oath also wins the game immediately or sometimes goes a turn with a monster that is virtually impossible to remove.  Lab Maniac gives them a full turn to react, and they could search out a spell to remove him.

In game 1, you shouldn't really have to worry too much about graveyard hate/needles.  Just pack the deck with counters and discard to keep them off counters and bounce.

[emidln]

Despite initial objections, I put some work into this card since it gives you something the deck otherwise lacks: an efficient non-will kill condition that can also be played as a pass the turn pile for very cheap.

Consider this pile:

Ancestral Recall
Black Lotus
Laboratory Maniac
Gitaxian Probe/Lotus Petal(any mana source will do)
Gitaxian Probe

After Doomsday, you get these numbers:

pass the turn cost: U
gitaxian probe cost: U
gush cost: 0

It's also worth noting that it's trivial to make this play through Null Rod, Chalice @ 0, or incorporate protection via Flusterstorm/Pact of Negation.

It does all of this in a single card, which is more efficient than Desire+R&D/Beacon and less likely to fizzle than Timetwister (which gives the opponent a new grip virtually requiring Pact of Negation in your deck while also having hand size limitations unless you want to only *probably* win).