BUG Fish: A Return & Something New!

[Stormanimagus]

So if folks have been following the GUW Noble Fish thread they'll know that I proposed a BUG aggro variant to abuse Phantasmal Image. No sooner had I suggested Phantasmal image then it was shot down, but I'd still like to test this list to see if there is potential here. Basically I've fused BUG fish and Owen Turtenwald's winning Champs decklist of more than a year ago into something that I believe could be well positioned to beat Shops, Gush and Dredge in this current environment. My biggest fear is that the deck won't have the steam to beat Jace-Vault decks because of a lack of Null Rod, but Null Rod really makes no sense in a deck that is running full moxen and trying to abuse Tinker. Phyrexian Revoker was suggested Maindeck, and I am considering trying to squeeze some in Maindeck, but I don't like that, in the blue match-up, I'll frequently want to name Jace and be running my own Jaces as well. Here's my current list followed by a card-by-card explanation:

Jazz Fusion: A New BUG Fish Variant


Land (15):
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

Artifact Creatures (1):
1 Sphinx Of The Steel Wind/Myr Battlesphere

Creatures (17):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phantasmal Image
3 Trygon Predator
2 Edric, Spymaster of Trest

Planeswalkers (3):
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Instants (10):
4 Force Of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Steel Sabotage

Sorceries (6):
3 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Yixlid Jailer
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Island
4 Flusterstorm
1 Doom Blade
 

Ok, now to the card explanations:

*15 land, 2 basic and 1 Academy — Ok, Academy is just too bonkers to not include. Especially when you are running cards like Jace that are easy to resolve with Flusterstorm back-up when you have Academy. The Basic Forest and Island are to ensure Trygon mana vs. the primary Wasteland deck in the format: MUD.

*Lotus, Moxen, Crypt, Ring — I hope these inclusions are obvious. The only card I was toying with cutting was either the Sol Ring or Mox Ruby (not Mox Pearl as some opponents might be fooled into thinking I am on Noble Fish with certain opening draws), but I think including both is great when you run important 3 CMC threats in Trygon, Edric, and Tinker as well as 3 Jace.

*Sphinx of the Steel Wind — This could easily have been Blightsteel Colossus, but I like that Sphinx is Blue and compliments the Goyfs the deck much better than BSC. BSC can win in one swing, but if an opponent has 2 power of blockers on the board (pretty typical in this environment) then they've just bought themselves a critical turn to find an answer. Even if they find an answer to Sphinx, she leverages your position with one swing better than BSC (assuming that they have the blockers). This may be wrong, but I'd be really interested to here what folks have to say on the issues with both choices. Would it be wise to consider something like Myr Battlesphere too? The reason I had not considered here is mostly because I think that a Phantasmal image that copies a battlesphere will die the first time it attacks. Could you use all eight Myr in play to pump only the real battlesphere and simply not attack with the Imaged battlesphere? If that was the case I'd consider battlesphere.

*4 Dark Confidant — The main draw engine of the deck. Sure we have Edric, but Edric only draws for you when you connect for damage, so you'll have match-ups where he doesn't work. Confidant can also work well with Edric because he'll want to be beating for 2.

*4 Tarmogoyf — I considered running 3, but this guy is just so good at doing what he does and that is beating face. There is a reason that he's been the centerpiece of so many Legacy aggro decks for years. People who hate on him don't really know what they're talking about because he'll usually be at least a 3/4 and frequently a 4/5 for 1G. With full moxen to ensure being able to cast him early this guy is solid.

*4 Phantasmal Image — This is a centerpiece of the deck and one reason I wanted to run Sphinx as my Tinker target. A poster said that copying Confidant or Goyf with this guy is overkill, and I couldn't disagree more. Sometimes the extra Goyf is your ticket to victory when staring down a Golem or Slash Panther. Combat math gets dicey in the Cat Stax match-up and you want to be a big dude ahead. He also has the added bonus of copying your opponent's fatties (of which there are a lot in the format right now: Slash Panther, Lodestone Golem, Tinker Targets, opposing Goyfs etc.,). I could be convinced to run 3, but no less than that. Otherwise, why play a creature deck like this one?

*3 Trygon Predator — This guy is the stone cold nuts vs. Shops. 'Nuff said.

*2 Edric, Spymaster of Trest — This guy is sorta the ace in the hole in a lot of match-ups. He's the Selkie of this deck and I think he could potentially be a lot better for this deck than Selkie currently is for Noble Fish. I'm excited to find out.

*3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor — Some folks have suggested I go to 2 or even 1 of this guy, but I don't think that's correct. We don't have as many tutors or dig to find an early Jace so running 3 helps to ensure the threat of early Jace. Perhaps he doesn't belong at all, but I'd like to test him first before cutting any.

*4 Force of Will — Even though this is sort of a Fish deck and FoW is card disadvantage, you are running many great bombs that need protecting. This is a great way to protect those bombs.

* 1 Ancestral Recall, 1 Brainstorm, 1 Vampiric Tutor — Somewhat obvious when you consider: raw power for A.Call, Dig for Tinker + Synergy with Bog for B.Storm, and search for Tinker with Vamp.

*3 Steel Sabotage — Your maindeck answer to early spheres that helps in resolving a Trygon Predator before it is too late. Also an answer to Tinker-bot in addition to Image. Can also counter moxen and/or TV/Key vs. Jace-Vault, but you'll side it out game 2 and 3 in that match-up.

*1 Demonic Tutor, 1 Tinker, 1 Timewalk — I hope these are quite obvious when you see the rest of the design of my deck.

*3 Thoughtseize — This card is incredibly good game 1 at gathering info about your opponent's deck and disrupting combos. It is important to run this over Duress in our deck as creature combat will decide many games and thus we should be prepared to snipe an important creature like Golem or Slash Panther.

Sideboard

*4 Leyline of the Void — If you draw this vs. Dredge it should nearly be game over because you have 4 FoW and 4 Flusterstorm to protect it.
*2 Yixlid Jailer — Hard to answer for Dredge and beats so good with Edric at drawing you into more hate.
*1 Nihil Spellbomb — I've found that it is nice to have a Tinker target to nuke a dredge player's yard.
*4 Flusterstorm — So good vs. Blue decks and that is a really tough match-up for us.
*1 Steel Sabotage — So good vs. Shops that I think the 4th is warranted in the SB
*1 Trygon Predator — See Steel Sabotage
*1 Island — This will help a great deal vs. Espresso Stax and other variants of MUD at keeping my unwasteable land count respectable.
*1 Doom Blade — In case of pesky Fish critters. Anyone have a more techy idea than Doom Blade? Should I bother to run another anti-fish card? Shouldn't I dominate that match-up already?

[Marske]

3 Phyrexian Revoker — I'm really not sure where I'd board these in, but I suspect it would be vs. Metalworker MUD or Jace-Vault decks.

I always get a warm and fuzzy feeling inside when a new deck is suggested and the people who make it include cards they aren't sure off themselves (why not put up 3 open spot instead of this?!)

- Do you happen to have any real test results to back up some of the claims you're making?
- How good has the Image been for you?
- How good has Edric, Spymaster of Trest been for you?
- Running 3 (4 afterboarding) flusterstorms seems rather overkill tbh.

[Prospero]

Noah, I had a couple of questions for you:

1.  With the proliferation of Dredge and various Cat Stax/Shop strategies, do you feel that three maindeck Flusterstorm is a solid card?

2.  Given Steel Sabotage's impotence against Dredge and weakness to opposing blue matches, do you feel that three maindeck is warranted?

Even with Leylines and Jailers in the sideboard, I don't know that you can beat Dredge.  Trygon Predator is also weak in that match.  Speaking of which, is Trygon Predator really the best call right now?  Consider this:

3x Dismember
4x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Razormane Masticore

That's what I had, post board, against Trygon.  I also had Welders.  I blew up Trygon Predators all day long and felt even better than usual when I saw my opponents sacrificing their Lotus to drop a Predator.

Do you think that it's right to run Sphinx when BSC is a one hit kill?

[DubDub]

Battlesphere + Edric seems significantly better than Sphinx + Edric.
Tinker, next turn drop Spymaster and draw as many as 5 cards (depending on blockers)?  You sacrifice a little damage not using the Sphere's triggered ability, but drawing so many extra cards should lock up the game.

I also don't see any conflict between Battlesphere and Image.  If anything there's again a more positive interaction with Sphere and Image than Sphere and Sphinx:
Tinker, next turn drop Image copying Sphere, get four more tokens.  Attack with original Sphere tapping two sets of four tokens plus the Image-Sphere to deal 9 direct damage and give the attacking Sphere +9/+0.  That seems really good.

The issue with both of these cases is that Tinker is already very good, and the above interactions may prove to be win-more.  I mean, if in response to your Image they Steel Sabotage the Sphere then you're going to end up with a 1/1 Myr Token for  ... not ideal.  You may be better off better protecting the actual Battlesphere, though obviously Image has value in other situations.

[Stormanimagus]

@Marske — You are correct that I have not yet tested the deck but I think the theory behind it is somewhat sound and it is not a huge far cry from decks that already exist in these colors (Trygon-Jace etc). I wish you would keep your criticisms serious and not move into the realm of sarcasm because that undermines the spirit of my proposed deck development. In other words, please keep the criticism specific and constructive.

Now to your specific concerns:

1. Edric and Image are big question marks to me as they do sort of define what this deck is trying to do, i.e win with overwhelming aggro and card advantage.

2. I have currently moved Flusterstorm to the SB but it remains a 4-of there because I can think of no other card in these colors that gives you the boost you need vs. Blue deck that Flusterstorm does. Flusterstorm is such a saving grace in those match-ups because it singe-handedly wins you counter wars where your opponent either has double force of Force + Pierce. If they are protecting a tutor for Will or Will itself you'll be happy you have Flusterstorm and not something like a pierce of your own in that instance. Elsewhere it is only weaker that Spell Pierce in that it cannot target Jace, Moxen, or Oath. I'll take that downside to the many upsides it offers. Why 4 you ask? Well, I believe that Gush-Storm or Jace-Vault are huge Achilles' heels for this deck because we don't run Null Rod. Null Rod would single-handedly vault that match-up into more of the 50/50 territory at least, but it makes no sense to run it along-side full artifact acceleration. And so I am forced to shore up that match-up in the best way I know how: an extremely efficient and brutal counterspell. Would you suggest something else for that match-up? If so, what?

@Prospero —

1. The Maindeck here is designed to give you a lot of game 1 victories vs. Shops (See 3 Steel Sabotage + 3 Trygon Predator + Tarmogoyf + Confidant). I have actually moved Flusterstorm to the SB for now, but I don't think I'd cut it for sure. Fish decks (and this still is Fish in my mind) often have somewhat narrow hate cards that are dead in some match-ups MD but I do understand the instinct to NOT include anything potentially dead maindeck and so I've cut the F.Storms.

2. I do feel it's warranted because I think I'll win game 2 and 3 vs. Dredge on the back of 7 hate cards + 4 FoW + 4 Flusterstorm. Flusterstorm is real nice vs. dredge because it will be a hard counter to their anti-hate 99% of the time. All their card that try to take out Jailer and Leyline are instants or sorceries so Flusterstorm is awesome here.

3. I do think Trygon Predator is fine right now unless you have a better suggestion. Metamorph is the only card of the 3 you mentioned that most players run in high frequency in shops. It is true that Metamorph is a big problem though for the viability of Trygon. All I can say is I'll try to win that war on the back of Phantasmal Image and simply make more predators than they can handle. The moment I get even 1 of my predators through it should be over as I can simply kill the metamorph and go to town the following turn with multiple predators.

Sphinx vs. BSC vs. Myr Battlesphere is something I'm going to have to consider much more carefully and I'm not sure that anything other than lots of testing will reveal the winner.

-Storm

[Marske]

@Stormanimagus,
Along with some sarcasm it was a general concern. You're presenting the deck, eventhough it's a variation on an existing deck as being tested. (or so you come across and you never mention not having tested anything). Second, if you're not sure about card X your best bet is to not mention it at all but indeed mention "3 open slots" and have people think about what they need to be without offering them a bias regarding Revoker (because why else would the decks creator run them if they aren't at least good enough?!) I've build decks that attack a certain meta in the past and the biggest thing a developer needs to ask himself is "What do I need to solve?" giving people Revoker then stating it might not be needed is a paradox and not creating a fertile ground for innovation.

You're actually better off stating what this deck is weak to, what you are doing to shore those, what still needs work etc. I hope this gets my message across better then me being sarcastic You can note cards people should keep in mind when brewing a similar deck for their meta and mention revoker or any other card you might consider there.

1. Edric and Image are big question marks to me as they do sort of define what this deck is trying to do, i.e win with overwhelming aggro and card advantage.

Edric kinda makes sense although he has the same flaw as Selki (doing nothing on it's own) Image is kinda interesting but suffers similar problems as Selki in that you need to either have a creature in play yourself (aren't you already in a good place then?) or need to be facing another creature (Why is your opponent playing creatures and not just winning?!)

2. I have currently moved Flusterstorm to the SB but it remains a 4-of there because I can think of no other card in these colors that gives you the boost you need vs. Blue deck that Flusterstorm does. Flusterstorm is such a saving grace in those match-ups because it singe-handedly wins you counter wars where your opponent either has double force of Force + Pierce. If they are protecting a tutor for Will or Will itself you'll be happy you have Flusterstorm and not something like a pierce of your own in that instance. Elsewhere it is only weaker that Spell Pierce in that it cannot target Jace, Moxen, or Oath. I'll take that downside to the many upsides it offers. Why 4 you ask? Well, I believe that Gush-Storm or Jace-Vault are huge Achilles' heels for this deck because we don't run Null Rod. Null Rod would single-handedly vault that match-up into more of the 50/50 territory at least, but it makes no sense to run it along-side full artifact acceleration. And so I am forced to shore up that match-up in the best way I know how: an extremely efficient and brutal counterspell. Would you suggest something else for that match-up? If so, what?

Meddling mage naming Y. Will or Tinker is a better tool then trying to fight a counterwar when your entire strategy revolves around tempo. You can't compete with dedicated blue decks, because your deck isn't build to, if it was, it wouldn't be a fish deck. Fluster storm not being able to hit half of the cards that really matter for you (jace, Oath and Moxen) is kinda huge. When playing Fish it's all about tempo and mana denial is a huge part of tempo. Being able to hit a mox (or shut it down with Rod) is huge against blue decks. I think you're trying to make this deck into something it's not.

[Stormanimagus]

1. Edric and Image are big question marks to me as they do sort of define what this deck is trying to do, i.e win with overwhelming aggro and card advantage.

Edric kinda makes sense although he has the same flaw as Selki (doing nothing on it's own) Image is kinda interesting but suffers similar problems as Selki in that you need to either have a creature in play yourself (aren't you already in a good place then?) or need to be facing another creature (Why is your opponent playing creatures and not just winning?!)

Umm. . . because lots of deck play creatures now. Against MUD you have a lot of solid targets (Golem or Slash or something bigger like Steel Hellkite). Against many blue decks you have Confidant, and Trygon and against Fish you have Goyf and anything else they play. Against Oath you have Oathed Creatures and that right there is also huge. The only match-up where he is a bit weaker perhaps is Storm-Combo and maybe Dredge. And he has plenty of solid cards to copy. You run 18 dudes. The odds are like Force of Will + Blue card odds. Chances are you'll have something to copy and everything in this deck (save 2x Edric) is awesome to copy. This is the card that Gilded Drake should have been IMO.

2. I have currently moved Flusterstorm to the SB but it remains a 4-of there because I can think of no other card in these colors that gives you the boost you need vs. Blue deck that Flusterstorm does. Flusterstorm is such a saving grace in those match-ups because it singe-handedly wins you counter wars where your opponent either has double force of Force + Pierce. If they are protecting a tutor for Will or Will itself you'll be happy you have Flusterstorm and not something like a pierce of your own in that instance. Elsewhere it is only weaker that Spell Pierce in that it cannot target Jace, Moxen, or Oath. I'll take that downside to the many upsides it offers. Why 4 you ask? Well, I believe that Gush-Storm or Jace-Vault are huge Achilles' heels for this deck because we don't run Null Rod. Null Rod would single-handedly vault that match-up into more of the 50/50 territory at least, but it makes no sense to run it along-side full artifact acceleration. And so I am forced to shore up that match-up in the best way I know how: an extremely efficient and brutal counterspell. Would you suggest something else for that match-up? If so, what?

Meddling mage naming Y. Will or Tinker is a better tool then trying to fight a counterwar when your entire strategy revolves around tempo. You can't compete with dedicated blue decks, because your deck isn't build to, if it was, it wouldn't be a fish deck. Fluster storm not being able to hit half of the cards that really matter for you (jace, Oath and Moxen) is kinda huge. When playing Fish it's all about tempo and mana denial is a huge part of tempo. Being able to hit a mox (or shut it down with Rod) is huge against blue decks. I think you're trying to make this deck into something it's not.

I'm sorry but this is just wrong and I should know because I have played with Meddling Mage a lot. Naming Y. Will or Tinker with Meddling Mage is almost always the wrong play and it has always been such. You almost always want to name a 4-of Engine card with Mage because they'll simply use a different win con depending on what you name. Name Y. Will against Gush? Ok, I'll just slow play some Jace advantage into Tinker. Name Tinker vs. Jace-Vault? I'll just gain advantage and find Vault/Key. Here are the cards to name with Medddling Mage more often than not in various match-ups:

MUD: Tangle Wire, Lodestone Golem
Gush-Bond: Gush
TPS: Dark Ritual
Jace-Vault: Jace
Fish: ??? Depends
Dredge: Cabal Therapy or Dread Return.

I know you understand this principle Marske. Also, Meddling Mage cannot be run in these colors. Flusterstorm accomplishes a lot against Blue decks and NO I am not trying to be a mana-denial deck. Why would I when I have cards like Tinker->Bot? I am an aggro deck. My attack is on the life total. I've made THE Fish mana denial deck already and that deck is codified in my mind. That deck is Selkie-Strike. It has 4 Daze, 4 Null Rod 5 Waste/Strip and 4 Stifle (Stifle in only the original version) as well as 3 Cursecatcher in the original version. That deck worked for a time, but after Lodestone Golem was printed MUD became the premier mana-denial strategy of the format. I'm not trying to compete with MUD for that spot. I am trying to win in a different way. Beaters/Answers and tempo. Tempo is not just mana advantage remember. Tempo is Card advantage as well. If I Flusterstorm a key spell my opponent plays that is superior to Thoughtseize because he/she wasted the mana for the spell and the card itself. Since my Flusterstorm is comparatively weak in comparison to a bomb like Yawg Will or A. Recall then the Flusterstorm countering that spell and making them pay mana is a good trade-off. That is why counters are good and why this particular counterspell is good. I hope that helps to clarify my stance there.

-Storm

[serracollector]

I have also been trying a deck kinda like yours but my creature base is:

X confidants
X image
3 Edric
3 Trygon
X Death's Shadow

The reason I run death's shadow anymore is because of a few cards I also run that work quite synergestically with the rest:

Gitaxin Probe
Cabal Therapy
Thoughtseize
Noxious Revival
Dismember
Surgical Extraction

All of them cost life, or can, all are good for the meta, and all work great with Trygon, Confidant, and Death's Shadow. 

Revival on Time Walk with Edric in play is gg.
I personally run:
3 pierce
3 TS
2 Therapy
4 Force
as my "counters" and in playtesting it has been good.  With Trygon and Dismemember, and as a maindeck answer to Dredge, Surgical Extraction has been absolutely amazing.

My 2 cents, hope it helps.

[Stormanimagus]

I have also been trying a deck kinda like yours but my creature base is:

X confidants
X image
3 Edric
3 Trygon
X Death's Shadow

The reason I run death's shadow anymore is because of a few cards I also run that work quite synergestically with the rest:

Gitaxin Probe
Cabal Therapy
Thoughtseize
Noxious Revival
Dismember
Surgical Extraction

All of them cost life, or can, all are good for the meta, and all work great with Trygon, Confidant, and Death's Shadow. 

Revival on Time Walk with Edric in play is gg.
I personally run:
3 pierce
3 TS
2 Therapy
4 Force
as my "counters" and in playtesting it has been good.  With Trygon and Dismemember, and as a maindeck answer to Dredge, Surgical Extraction has been absolutely amazing.

My 2 cents, hope it helps.

The problem with Death's Shadow is that it is not a Vintage playable card. It is basically strictly inferior to Goyf for the purpose of beatdown. Early game you can't even play it at all because it is 0/0 and will just die. If you do manage to get to like 8 life then it becomes good, but if you are at 8 life than you are 1 Tinker-Bot hit from death or a mini-Tendrils or 2 Lodestone Swings. It is simply too dangerous to go for such a strategy when you can't capitalize on the B mana cost anyway. If he was B mana cost AND a realistic early game play I'd be all for running him, but he's not and is thus unplayable as far as I'm concerned. When I say "early" I mean turn 1 or 2. He's not going to consistently come down on either of those turns in basically every deck in the format. Running bad cards for Fish like Gitaxian Probe does not justify him either. Sorry.

-Storm

[serracollector]

// Lands
    1  Island
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Wasteland
    4  Underground Sea
    3  Polluted Delta
    3  Misty Rainforest
    4  Tropical Island

// Creatures
    3 [COMM] Edric, Spymaster of Trest
    3  Trygon Predator
    3  Phantasmal Image
    4  Dark Confidant
    2  Death's Shadow

// Spells
    4  Force of Will
    1  Dismember
    1  Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Hurkyl's Recall
    1  Time Walk
    1 [DDC] Demonic Tutor
    4  Gitaxian Probe
    2  Surgical Extraction
    1  Ancestral Recall
    2  Cabal Therapy
    1  Demonic Consultation
    2  Thoughtseize
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Lotus Petal

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Energy Flux
SB: 2  Emissary of Despair
SB: 4  Null Rod
SB: 4 [GTW] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 2 [ARE] Diabolic Edict


That's my current list, and I have yet had a prob with Death's Shadow, or Probe.  Probe has been amazing as a matter of fact.  Also, remember with Edric, even if the Shadow is a 1/1 or 3/3 its still drawing you a card, and getting bigger every turn.  A goyf on turn 1 is max a 3/4 with a fetch, a lotus and a spell.  And thats obv not a common thing.  The fact that Shadow is 3/3 or bigger by turn 3 is just the same as Goyf, and its cheaper.

[Guli]

I believe I am the person that has tested Phantasmal Image the most since it was spoiled and printed. I have tested the card in mostly   . A_Duck recognized that my idea had serious potential and joined me in my exploration of this new and BEST blue bear ever printed. These testings happened on Cockatrice for the most part. Other competent players were involved in these Vintage sessions. Allow me to share my experience.

- Phantasmal Image will never be 'the single core card' of any deck. When it does become that important, I will cut it because then it becomes a liability. What if you don't draw it?
- Phantasmal Image can best be seen as a card that is highly adaptive and flexible and good at almost all times. But it is a support card. A card that is an extension to an already existing strategy.
- The ability to be a potential answer to big fat monsters pushes this card from good to excellent. The Tinker win route will now have to be carefully calculated by the blue control deck. It is no longer as obvious and safe. It can actually backfire or be a trap the fish player has set up. I did this with Vial, to block with a bear Vial in Image EOT to copy BC and then win next turn. In a meta full of Tinker/BC your Phantasmal IS Tinker.

I didn't explore a BANT list that opted for Tinker or played a strategy without mana denial. In fact, my approach still went for the mana advantage with Noble's and ESG's. The mana denial was done by wastelands, revokers and when the situation called for it, Phantasmal became Revoker. Also in some cases, Qasali also destroyed mana sources with or without Phantasmal Images. It must be noted though that these bears could also simply ignore the mana and play a totally different role. In combination with this mana denial route and the versatile nature of these bears, the deck also packed cards like Meddling Mage, a card that is the very essence of aggro control. I called these 4 bears (16 total) the core of the deck.

The 8 'creatures' Noble and ESG are not really creatures (ment for beatdown) in my book (but they sometimes do beat obviously). They are there to gain a mana advantage and to bypass sphere effects. I say this because sometimes people make the comment that I run too many creatures and that I am trying to justify Edric this way. The truth is I run 16 core bears and they make the deck work. Edric is a 3cc card that gives all your bears Keen Sense. Cards like Trygon and Ooze have been tried as silver bullets to Shop, Aggro and Dredge with success. However these were always the experimental slots and it is still going on.


I loaded up the colours BUG myself and it works just fine. The deck can generate an insane amount of card advantage at times while beating down. It also has a counter package that is effective. I haven't tested it that much, but it felt all right. I didn't feel that it was anything special though, i just dropped Confidants, FoW something, then cast Jace. Bounced something here and there, beat down with Tarm and so on. I sensed it needed tweaking but frankly I missed the excitement and flexibility elements BANT gave me. From my perspective the BUG colours are boring and solid while BANT, for me, represents flexibility and  innovation. Another important thing to note is that I view tempo as more than just mana and card advantage. There is also this thing I wrote about 'effect is tempo'. A sphere effect falls under the category of mana denial but it also has this 'instant effect'. Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf and Trygon do not have this quality. Confidant and Trygon opt for card advantage and create tempo like that. Goyf's tempo is because of clock, the weakest of tempo play. Tinker is actually utilizing this tempo play the best because BC is a 1 turn clock. All these tempo plays lead to spell denial in the end. But you can combine them as you wish. However, when you are trying to combine don't overdo it, it will lead to half decks.

So this list tries to use cards that opt for tempo with CA. Correctly, and this is forced, this is supported by instant spells that stop whatever they play (FoW, Sabotage, Fluster, ...). This is forced because you need to compensate for the loss of tempo, because your bears do not cause immediate pressure.


I wish you good luck with BUG,

Guli

[Marske]

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Umm. . . because lots of deck play creatures now. Against MUD you have a lot of solid targets (Golem or Slash or something bigger like Steel Hellkite). Against many blue decks you have Confidant, and Trygon and against Fish you have Goyf and anything else they play. Against Oath you have Oathed Creatures and that right there is also huge. The only match-up where he is a bit weaker perhaps is Storm-Combo and maybe Dredge. And he has plenty of solid cards to copy. You run 18 dudes. The odds are like Force of Will + Blue card odds. Chances are you'll have something to copy and everything in this deck (save 2x Edric) is awesome to copy. This is the card that Gilded Drake should have been IMO.

Against MUD I can definitely see Image being good, copying a Confidant or Trygon vs Blue decks seems weak to me, Imagine facing down Menendian / Mastriano's Gush list with Bob, what does copying Bob actually get you? They are still more equipped to grinding you out then you are. They can still just chain gushes and win. My entire point revolves around the fact that you really need all of your cards to have an impact, which image on itself does not.

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I'm sorry but this is just wrong and I should know because I have played with Meddling Mage a lot. Naming Y. Will or Tinker with Meddling Mage is almost always the wrong play and it has always been such. You almost always want to name a 4-of Engine card with Mage because they'll simply use a different win con depending on what you name. 

I said it would be better, not that it would be the optimal play... at least with Mage naming Will / Tinker you actually do manage to lock them out somewhat. I've played with and against some of the best Fish pilots in Europe. There are only 2 cards that are worth fighting over (Will and Tinker) with access denied to those 2 most decks are forced to fight fair, if you have a decent Mana Denial + Tempo Strategy, slow rolling gushes into Jace is just going to get them killed. Naming a 4-off engine card might be usefull, but for example, vs TPS it's useless, you name Dark Ritual ? Sure I can Still tinker up something or tutor Chain of vapor and go off. Good pilots (and decks) always have interlocking synergies or multiple engines. We're not talking about one trick ponies here.

Name Y. Will against Gush? Ok, I'll just slow play some Jace advantage into Tinker. Name Tinker vs. Jace-Vault? I'll just gain advantage and find Vault/Key.

Slow play some Jace advantage into tinker ?! What the hell, how are they A) keeping Jace alive against your swell of 2/2 hate bears ?! and B) Getting an advantage against you?

You also neglect to state HOW they are getting an advantage when you name Tinker you just state they gain advantage and find vault/key which should be useless vs your Rods + artifact hate anyway... Gaining an advantage against a properly constructed tempo deck is nigh impossible and most of the wins come from forcing either a quick Tinker and protecting the bot or Yawg. Will turn that wins the game through a very small window. If you're deck isn't capable of constricting other decks this way it's just not properly build (or shouldn't be called a Fish/tempo deck)

I know you understand this principle Marske. Also, Meddling Mage cannot be run in these colors.

I do, doesn't mean I agree and I named mage because he's a prime example.

Flusterstorm accomplishes a lot against Blue decks and NO I am not trying to be a mana-denial deck. Why would I when I have cards like Tinker->Bot? I am an aggro deck. My attack is on the life total.

You are a gimped fish deck with a bad beatdown plan. If you're a aggro deck you should have for example:

4xTarmogoyf
4x Wild Nacatle
4x Beserk
4x Lightning Bolt

along with every other way to pressure life totals, you don't have this. You have a small focus on trying to fight other unfair decks and make then fight you on your terms. But you're badly equipped at fighting at those terms. This doesn't sound like a great spot to be in to me. Also, if you're attacking the life total and trying to win as fast as possible, I'd definitely run BSC over any tinker bot because it kills the fastest.

I've made THE Fish mana denial deck already and that deck is codified in my mind. That deck is Selkie-Strike. It has 4 Daze, 4 Null Rod 5 Waste/Strip and 4 Stifle (Stifle in only the original version) as well as 3 Cursecatcher in the original version. That deck worked for a time, but after Lodestone Golem was printed MUD became the premier mana-denial strategy of the format. I'm not trying to compete with MUD for that spot. I am trying to win in a different way. Beaters/Answers and tempo.

What you just described is EXACTLY what MUD tries to do, Beaters / Answers and tempo...

Fact is you ARE trying to compete with MUD in being a deck with fast beats and small "time walks" instead of locking people out of mana (Stax, not MUD)... only difference is your beats are smaller and you're trying to fight other decks on the stack vs fighting with resistors.

Tempo is not just mana advantage remember. Tempo is Card advantage as well. If I Flusterstorm a key spell my opponent plays that is superior to Thoughtseize because he/she wasted the mana for the spell and the card itself. Since my Flusterstorm is comparatively weak in comparison to a bomb like Yawg Will or A. Recall then the Flusterstorm countering that spell and making them pay mana is a good trade-off. That is why counters are good and why this particular counterspell is good. I hope that helps to clarify my stance there.

I understand the concept behind tempo, trust me, save the lecture. I understand how good Flusterstorm is, I just don't see it being awesome vs MUD / Stax or Gush as you make it out to be. It's not bad mind you, it's just not any better then Spell Pierce. It does have the upside to be somewhat better in certain scenario's but I doubt they come up often enough to call it a strict upgrade. I think Mental Misstep is way better then Flusterstorm for instance. The final 101 in why countermagic is good should be saved for when your next FNM player sits down across from you with his 80 card draft pile.