New Null Rod - Silence of Stone

[AmbivalentDuck]

I think Guli doesn't really understand magic.  But that's probably beside the point.

Sounds like a testable hypothesis.  I'm sure he'd love to play against you on Cockatrice.

If you're not willing to put a claim like that to the test, well, it reads as flaming.

[Commandant]

I think Guli doesn't really understand magic.  But that's probably beside the point.

Sounds like a testable hypothesis.  I'm sure he'd love to play against you on Cockatrice.

If you're not willing to put a claim like that to the test, well, it reads as flaming.

I hope LHC brings Goblins and we feature match Guli Fish vs. AD Goblins. I read it will look something like the Special Olympics of T1.

On another note this card seems great for Noble Fish - I bet Mike is happy.

[T00L]

LHC should just scoreboard him and call it a day.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Should have been a 4/4 flying for 2W with this null rod effect.

No way man, it would have to be at least a 4/6 flier for 2U with a null rod effect to be playable.  See, cuz, otherwise it can't profitably block a Lodestone Golem or pitch to Force of Will.  Oh, it it would also need shrou- er, hexproof, otherwise it would die to removal.  Then maybe it would see some play.

That would be a start, but then it should probably also have something like that laboratory maniac ability but tweaked....like "If you draw a card, you win."  Because a 4/X flyer for 3 just isn't a fast enough clock.

[Guli]

I am one of the most experienced Fish players around around on this forum. An enchantment with a Null Rod effect is not really what we need right now. That was my point basically.

I do like that it will have better play with Kataki, but the whole mana denial strategy Fish has been following the last years is not really working is it?


I don't get it, what the fuck did they print for Fish that would be only playable in a GWx shell that has the same powerlevel as Jace or Lodestone Golem or Fatesticher/Sun Titan? I feel like the Fish community are not dining on the same table and only get the leftovers. And if good stuff are printed, see Snapcaster Mage (probably the best card in the set), it is perfectly playable in the blue/x decks so it doesn't really give us an edge does it?

[LotusHead]

I want this card to be banned for being not Innistrad Flavorfull.

[T00L]

I don't get it, what the fuck did they print for Fish that would be only playable in a GWx shell that has the same powerlevel as Jace or Lodestone Golem or Fatesticher/Sun Titan? I feel like the Fish community are not dining on the same table and only get the leftovers.

So you're not playing a deck that runs Yawgmoth's Will and you're complaining about power level issues? This makes perfect sense.

[Guli]

I don't get it, what the fuck did they print for Fish that would be only playable in a GWx shell that has the same powerlevel as Jace or Lodestone Golem or Fatesticher/Sun Titan? I feel like the Fish community are not dining on the same table and only get the leftovers.

So you're not playing a deck that runs Yawgmoth's Will and you're complaining about power level issues? This makes perfect sense.

What is your point dude? You don't like the fact that I point out something? Deal with it, cause I will keep pointing it out every time they print something half good.

[Commandant]

By playing GWx creature based decks you are pigeonholing yourself on two levels; by playing (historically) the weakest two colors in T1 and by playing creatures. To be quite honest this goes back to the old adage of min maxing your chances to do well by playing the most optimal list. Fish is your pet deck and like most pet decks it is not very good in the grand scheme of things. So your harm your foul, deal with it.

[Prospero]

Gents, this thread is for the discussion as to the potential viability of Silence of Stone in Vintage.  It shouldn't be a venue to discuss anyone's deck preferences or their proficiency with said deck.

Let's get this back on topic or this thread is getting locked.

[Guli]

I think the discussion is very nice because it is about the very essence of the Fish archetype. Some people think they understand it more than those who play it on daily basis.

This new spoiled card is not a bad card, it is actually better than Null Rod for any Fish running white. However, it is not enough. What Fish needs is not another threat (like Silence of Stone). It is welcomed by me, because it is an upgrade, but I have to point out that there is more need for reliable, reusable acceleration from Fish point of view. Gush is mana acceleration (and more), Mishra's Workshop is mana acceleration (and more), Bazaar is an engine. Null Rod is not acceleration (it actually stops your own) and it is not an engine. Noble Hierarch is solid but doesn't come close to what the other archetype's have.

So I am saying it again, Silence of Stone is solid but will not solve the issues of speed and flexibility.

[President Skroob]

I think the discussion is very nice because it is about the very essence of the Fish archetype. Some people think they understand it more than those who play it on daily basis.

This new spoiled card is not a bad card, it is actually better than Null Rod for any Fish running white. However, it is not enough. What Fish needs is not another threat (like Silence of Stone). It is welcomed by me, because it is an upgrade, but I have to point out that there is more need for reliable, reusable acceleration from Fish point of view. Gush is mana acceleration (and more), Mishra's Workshop is mana acceleration (and more), Bazaar is an engine. Null Rod is not acceleration (it actually stops your own) and it is not an engine. Noble Hierarch is solid but doesn't come close to what the other archetype's have.

So I am saying it again, Silence of Stone is solid but will not solve the issues of speed and flexibility.

You speak as though Wizards has some responsibility to your pet deck. It doesn't. You need to get over this sense of entitlement, because it poisons your entire view of the format.

Dreaming about what could be has absolutely nothing to do with the merits of this particular (weak) card.

[Diakonov]

I agree that it would definitely be stronger as a 2-power creature in Vintage, not weaker.  Creature removal seems to be pretty scarce right now other than universal bounce.  There is certainly more artifact/enchantment hate. 

Although, I'm sure that their intended audience for the card is Standard and Modern, where the opposite is true.

[Phele]

I think the discussion is very nice because it is about the very essence of the Fish archetype. Some people think they understand it more than those who play it on daily basis.

This new spoiled card is not a bad card, it is actually better than Null Rod for any Fish running white. However, it is not enough. What Fish needs is not another threat (like Silence of Stone). It is welcomed by me, because it is an upgrade, but I have to point out that there is more need for reliable, reusable acceleration from Fish point of view. Gush is mana acceleration (and more), Mishra's Workshop is mana acceleration (and more), Bazaar is an engine. Null Rod is not acceleration (it actually stops your own) and it is not an engine. Noble Hierarch is solid but doesn't come close to what the other archetype's have.

So I am saying it again, Silence of Stone is solid but will not solve the issues of speed and flexibility.

This sounds strange indeed. Do archetypes have the right to be fed constantly with powerful cards to still compete or in other words exist? I would say no, as long as the overall metagame seems healthy, what it is in my eyes.

[T00L]

Oh in case anyone was still curious R&D doesn't care about Vintage. lol

[GrandpaBelcher]

Oh in case anyone was still curious R&D doesn't care about Vintage. lol

(11:33:20) yangtime: also, i'm fairly certain that there are 0 people on wizards payroll that are paid to keep vintage in mind when designing new cards
(11:34:44) yangtime: ...that's like the frozen pea manufacturer designing for the segment of the market that uses the frozen peas as icepacks

[Klep]

(11:33:20) yangtime: also, i'm fairly certain that there are 0 people on wizards payroll that are paid to keep vintage in mind when designing new cards
(11:34:44) yangtime: ...that's like the frozen pea manufacturer designing for the segment of the market that uses the frozen peas as icepacks

Wait wait wait....

They expect me to eat frozen peas?

Well that explains a lot...

[madmanmike25]

Eight Null Rods won't make Fish top tier.  The whole point of Fish (i thought) is to NOT be top tier, and thus try to punish the decks that run busted cards all the while slowly picking away at the opponents life total.

Null Rod is a pathetically weak 'pillar', and in fact I would argue that it isn't a pillar at all.  At best it's an inanimate carbon rod (someone get's that I hope).

But yes, this might be a replacement for those decks with W that wish to run Null Rod.  And yes, if it had legs it would have been 1000.99% better.

[T00L]

(11:33:20) yangtime: also, i'm fairly certain that there are 0 people on wizards payroll that are paid to keep vintage in mind when designing new cards
(11:34:44) yangtime: ...that's like the frozen pea manufacturer designing for the segment of the market that uses the frozen peas as icepacks

They expect me to eat frozen peas?

http://youtu.be/IH1PJTY9AVA

[Delha]

Null Rod is a pathetically weak 'pillar', and in fact I would argue that it isn't a pillar at all.  At best it's an inanimate carbon rod (someone get's that I hope).

So you're saying Null Rod should be worker of the week?

[Wagner]

Null Rod is a pathetically weak 'pillar', and in fact I would argue that it isn't a pillar at all.  At best it's an inanimate carbon rod (someone get's that I hope).

So you're saying Null Rod should be worker of the week?

In Rod we trust!

[madmanmike25]

I'm saying we should throw Rod a parade and put it's likeness on the cover of a magazine.

[Guli]

Yes I want wizards to print cards for my pet deck. Guilty as charged. I enjoy the aggro control concept in Vintage immensly. In fact, it is the only reason I still play Vintage. It makes me feel like a rebel. I like to suffer, be the underdog.

Of course it sounds strange, because a lot of you guys are locked in some kind of thought stream and anything that sounds unfamiliar is categorized as 'strange'. You probably don't even grasp half of the things I am trying to say. And half of the reason is me, not able to fully and clearly explain myself. But I try, and I welcome all the nice critics, but please don't F DON'T think you know more or are in a better position to 'understand' this format better. We are highly likely in different meta games anyway so our 'formats' might not even be the same.

About that, I follow most of the articles and top 8's and design my Aggro Control decks in response to these formats. And right now, WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER NULL ROD. You can't play the mana denial game with Null Rod's in a tourney when you are likely to face Workshop and Dredge maybe Oath. What we need is MANA, to fight around the spheres and to get our stuff faster in play before it is too late (against combo for example). We already have the necessary draw --> Edric to refill our hands while we disrupt/beat at the same time with our utility bears. All we need is a card that gives us mana/tempo to speed up our process of aggro~control.

Disruption is actually just another way to say, 'I am generating tempo'. Which means taking a walk, which means you are setting them a little behind while you crawl up one more step. Disurption is also not only mana denial. Mana denial is just ONE way to generate mana advantage. Mana advantage is ONE form of gaining tempo. Cards like Gaddock Teeg and Aven Mindcensor generate tempo and disruption too on a different (more powerful) level. I named this as 'direct spell denial'. Mana denial also opts for spell denial but indirectly. But it will not work if they just play around it does it. How?

With Gush unrestricted plus Fastbond around, how will you be effective with your wastelands and null rod effects? Who cares about Null Rod?

I am far passed those days to have a 'pet deck'. My pet deck was back in 2007 featuring Aether Vial. I was passionate and maybe even blind to the realities of the format. Right now I am disappointed that Fish is still being categorized as a 'mana denial' deck and should play null rod or just die and stop existing. You heard it, people are saying that Null Rod is a poor and weak pillar. But this forum has ' Null Rod Based Fish ' section.... Think about that....

Guli

[doggue]

Hi Guly

I think you have a good mindset. I honestly still think that well built and well piloted fish-decks CAN make some serious impact. Keep playing the cards you like to play. Thats  what matters. I'd neither play a deck just because it's top 8 placements if I don't like it. It's a game where the player should enjoy the cards he plays. ... my 2cents.

btw: I believe the vintage community isn't too open minded and I alway's enjoy when someone brings something new to the table!

[Blue Lotus]

Yes I want wizards to print cards for my pet deck. Guilty as charged. I enjoy the aggro control concept in Vintage immensly. In fact, it is the only reason I still play Vintage. It makes me feel like a rebel. I like to suffer, be the underdog.

Of course it sounds strange, because a lot of you guys are locked in some kind of thought stream and anything that sounds unfamiliar is categorized as 'strange'. You probably don't even grasp half of the things I am trying to say. And half of the reason is me, not able to fully and clearly explain myself. But I try, and I welcome all the nice critics, but please don't F DON'T think you know more or are in a better position to 'understand' this format better. We are highly likely in different meta games anyway so our 'formats' might not even be the same.

About that, I follow most of the articles and top 8's and design my Aggro Control decks in response to these formats. And right now, WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER NULL ROD. You can't play the mana denial game with Null Rod's in a tourney when you are likely to face Workshop and Dredge maybe Oath. What we need is MANA, to fight around the spheres and to get our stuff faster in play before it is too late (against combo for example). We already have the necessary draw --> Edric to refill our hands while we disrupt/beat at the same time with our utility bears. All we need is a card that gives us mana/tempo to speed up our process of aggro~control.

Disruption is actually just another way to say, 'I am generating tempo'. Which means taking a walk, which means you are setting them a little behind while you crawl up one more step. Disurption is also not only mana denial. Mana denial is just ONE way to generate mana advantage. Mana advantage is ONE form of gaining tempo. Cards like Gaddock Teeg and Aven Mindcensor generate tempo and disruption too on a different (more powerful) level. I named this as 'direct spell denial'. Mana denial also opts for spell denial but indirectly. But it will not work if they just play around it does it. How?

With Gush unrestricted plus Fastbond around, how will you be effective with your wastelands and null rod effects? Who cares about Null Rod?

I am far passed those days to have a 'pet deck'. My pet deck was back in 2007 featuring Aether Vial. I was passionate and maybe even blind to the realities of the format. Right now I am disappointed that Fish is still being categorized as a 'mana denial' deck and should play null rod or just die and stop existing. You heard it, people are saying that Null Rod is a poor and weak pillar. But this forum has ' Null Rod Based Fish ' section.... Think about that....

Guli

I don't understand how you get a full on pants tent because of the 3 mana 1/3 and then start swearing when they print a null rod that doesn't get splash hate from workshop decks.

There will never be creature-only mana acceleration printed due to its standard implications. NEVER. So either make due with what you have or quit-yo-bitchin.

Edit - I guess what I mean to say is if you don't think null rod is viable, then why are you punishing yourself for playing that strategy.

[Delha]

Yes I want wizards to print cards for my pet deck....

...I am far passed those days to have a 'pet deck'.

Need I say more?

I enjoy the aggro control concept in Vintage immensly. In fact, it is the only reason I still play Vintage. It makes me feel like a rebel. I like to suffer, be the underdog.

So let's say they print exactly what you wanted. Let's say the next set had such efficient tools to hate out the other archetypes that Fish variants ended up being the top dog of the meta. Would you quit because you're no longer the rebel, no longer the underdog?

My point is that if you truly enjoy taking the hard road, then enjoy the challenge and leave it at that. If that isn't the case, you need to ask youself if you truly enjoy the struggle, or if you just enjoy whining.

[MaximumCDawg]

Came for the Rod, stayed for the Pants Tent.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I realize that the discussion on fish has dominated this thread because it is the most obvious deck to apply this card - but as far as what can be said about this card in itself is it is null rod that dodges artifact hate and can't be played off workshop.  Thread done.  I just said all there is to be said on this card.

[Guli]

Yes I want wizards to print cards for my pet deck....

...I am far passed those days to have a 'pet deck'.

Need I say more?

I enjoy the aggro control concept in Vintage immensly. In fact, it is the only reason I still play Vintage. It makes me feel like a rebel. I like to suffer, be the underdog.

So let's say they print exactly what you wanted. Let's say the next set had such efficient tools to hate out the other archetypes that Fish variants ended up being the top dog of the meta. Would you quit because you're no longer the rebel, no longer the underdog?

My point is that if you truly enjoy taking the hard road, then enjoy the challenge and leave it at that. If that isn't the case, you need to ask youself if you truly enjoy the struggle, or if you just enjoy whining.

The struggle of course. I find it hilarious that you think otherwise.

And I was being sarcastic in my opening line. That was very obvious (from my part at least).


I am talking about more speed instead of suppression. And this spoiled card holds a suppression strategy. It is like talking to a rock, like there is only 1 way to design 'the fish concept'.

One more thing, who knows me here? Nobody does. So what is all the hush about you guys pretending to know what I run nowadays and the thing about pant tent? I can take it no problem, but is it really fair? I am trying to make some points and highlight some important issues of fish strategy in general and what do I get? Some random personal feedback.

[Prospero]

Enough.  Thread locked.