Deck in development: Gaddock revised

[Guli]

This clearly belongs in the improvement section. I did limited testing for starters. By now, you should know that my method of developing and designing has many aspects and one of those is to involve the community. In what way?

- I play test with individuals on cockatrice
- I read articles and get inspired by them
- I create a thread on TMD and enable discussion and brainstorm sessions
- I have zoom sessions with people who are more closely involved (call them team mates)

This is the 'participative' dimension of my method and I like to keep it that way. By writing about the progress and interacting with other players I can see the quality of the design rise and feel the progress concretely.

I scrolled through the old Gaddock thread I created way back in 2007 and 2008. A lot has changed. For starters Gush is now fully operational and on top of that Jace is printed. Tinker is the number one win condition and Workshop is a force to be respected. So Gaddock should be a good bear to have because of the Gush engines, the Force of Will's and of course the storm kills involving Empty the Warrens and Tendrils of Agony. On its own, Gaddock will not cut it. So he needs backup.


What is good versus Workshop and Tinker, Sir?

Euh, that should be Magus of the Unseen. It also stops another win condition, Time Vault.

Gaddock and Magus of the Unseen are the most powerful 2 drops you can get at the moment when it comes down to disrupting the winning plan of the tier 1 decks. Of course you will need to protect them and support them. Also you want them online turn 1. Unless you are doing something else that is very disruptive and clearing the path for these 2 bombs. The list I am posting next tries to generate mana fast with a lot of moxes. It also has the 9 strip strategy to create mana advantage, hence some tempo and has Life from the Loam to keep up this pressure and to protect the mana base. Eventually you will always get a strip lock with this deck because of Aven/Arbiter. The pressure is building.

So on the one hand there is this impending strip lock with the anti tutor creatures, and on the other hand there is Gaddock and Magus that disrupt the win condition more directly. Is that it? Guli come on you can do better than that! So, of course not, I got more, but it sure needs testing and tweaking. before I explain the 'more' part here is the list. Take a look at it, let it sink, let it inspire you...  

'Oh no you don't'
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Magus of the Unseen

4 Life from the Loam
4 Vendilion Clique

'I prefer you use whatever you have in your hand'
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Aven Mindcensor

3 Maralen of the Mornsong

3 Steel Sabotage
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth
1 Ancestral Recall

2 Karakas

4 City of Brass
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Mox Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald

Wait, don't be harsh, Maralen of the Mornsong looks scary and hard to pull off, I know. But the effect, it is just at the highest level, so it NEEDS to be tested and tried. And I will do this, rest assured.

Of course you want Maralen when you have Arbiter or Aven (or both). But even if you don't have it, I have seen people go for Tinker and then I just grabbed Leonin Relic-Warder. Also consider this, they can't really tutor 2 times because that is 6 damage plus 2 damage from Maralen, in total 8 damage. Also if you have a Magus and Teeg this means they need to get 'answers' instead of win conditions, and the game stalls and stalls until it is too late for them. Also when they are at 3 life, they die. If they pass the turn you have the next line of play (and I don't think they fetched a counter spell); Get time walk and swing. Cast time walk, then swing again. Next you can get regrowth and have another Time Walk and attack again. Usually all this means the game is over because you will get them at 3 life pretty easily.

Then there is Karakas, the card that will do a lot damage with Clique and Maralen if they don't watch it. It can bounce Emrakul and your own Teeg (in case they bolt or dismember it).


Ok so please share, criticize and discuss. By the end of this month I want a working list with Teeg!

[Blue Lotus]

Ok so please share, criticize and discuss. By the end of this month I want a working list with Teeg!

Play GW. That deck is busted.

I would think if you are playing any spells, ancient ziggurat is unplayable. With lodestone slamming into your face, you can't afford to have a land that doesn't tap for mana or do something broken.

Its a cool lock idea, but giving an opponent first crack at something broken seems silly. Maybe play one Maralen and demonic and vamp instead? That way you can grab her when you have the mindlock guys and get other good spells when you don't.

Life from the loam seems out of place. If you want card advantage, wouldn't bob just be better? You are playing 9 strip effects, drawing into one wouldn't be hard. Much easier it seems than drawing one and drawing LFTL.

[serracollector]

'Oh no you don't'
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Magus of the Unseen

4 Life from the Loam
4 Vendilion Clique

'I prefer you use whatever you have in your hand'
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Aven Mindcensor

3 Maralen of the Mornsong

3 Steel Sabotage -
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth
1 Ancestral Recall

2 Karakas

4 City of Brass
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Mox Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald


Interesting list, purely cuz of Maralen and Arbiter, and Aven. I was trying to figure out a good deck using chains of Mephistopheles, this effect is pretty close.  I would build it just a lil differently. Changes in bold.

'Oh no you don't'(13)
4 Gaddock Teeg
3 Magus of the Unseen

3 Life from the Loam
3 Vendilion Clique

'I prefer you use whatever you have in your hand'(8)
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Maralen of the Mornsong

Adavantage: (12)
3 Dark Confidant
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Edric
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Thirst for Knowledge/Frantic Search/Bazaar of Baghdad

Mana: (27)
2 Karakas
4 City of Brass
4 Ancient Ziggurat 4 Gemstone Mine
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Mox Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet


Dark confidant is what it is, play it.  It doubly works with Maralen.  
Noxious Revival - its a psuedo time walk, and with maralen can be a time walk x 2. Instant, free, etc.
3 Magus, 3 Clique,  and 2 Steel Sabotage should be give you a fighting chance against MUD.  
2 Edric is to good not to play in a creature deck.  He turns all creatures into "tap, draw" for 3 mana. nuff said.
Snapcaster mage as a 1 of for Sabotage, Acall, and Time Walk.  Also it can "draw" off Edric.
Gemstone Mine is far superior, your running Life From the Loam.
Thirst/Frantic/Bazaar can be used to chuck Extra legends, lands, or life from the loam.  Bazaar works really well with Dark Confidant and Edric for mass CA.  Not sure which to use.  I'm leaning towards bazaar, since at worst early game it can become a Mox Diamond Fodder, to later be Loam'd for CA mid/late game.

[Guli]

I think Snapcaster Mage is a fantastic suggestion. In fact, it would enable ANOTHER time walk in the line I described with Maralen.

I like most of the other suggestions too. For now I will refrain from further comments.


Come on guys! Get involved in this thread. Post idea's. Other options, other routes!

[Guli]

Is it so hard to contribute and give this new Gaddock concept a chance?

Here is the newest list: totally reformed

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth
3 Orim's Chant
3 Path to Exile
3 Mental Misstep

3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Maralen of the Mornsong
4 Magus of the Unseen
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Gaddock Teeg
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Lotus Cobra

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
2 Mox Diamond
1 Black Lotus

3 City of Brass
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland

[Blue Lotus]

Could you talk about your card choices? You cut leonin arbiter, but do not include broken tutors (vamp, demonic, mystical, tinker). What is the reason for this?

What are you planning on recurring with snapcast mage? Orim's chant? Wouldn't scepter-chant just be better?

What are you trying to ramp into with lotus cobra?

What do you need 4 magus of the unseen for? It is a terrible answer to vault/key (having to leave up 2 mana every turn) and it seems like you have plenty of answers to tinker/bot with path. You are playing green, isn't trygon just better to fight shops? I understand magus is more versatile, but it doesn't do anything particularly well.

Also, mox diamond and lotus cobra should not be in the same deck.

Why did you cut LFTL? Why did you have it in the first place?

[Daenyth]

What do you need 4 magus of the unseen for? It is a terrible answer to vault/key (having to leave up 2 mana every turn)

You do realize he gets infinite turns with Magus + opposing vault?

[Blue Lotus]

who is going to run out a vault if you have an active mage?

And if you don't leave up the two mana every turn, they can just drop vault/key and win anyway.

[rikimaru75]

The new build cuts out the mana denial strategy.

Are you finding it difficult to get double Black for Maralen?

In addition to Snapcaster mage, have you considered running noxious revival to 'chain' multiple time walks.  I was just thinking about how Noxious revival should work with Rune-Scarred Demon Oath in that sense.

[Guli]

This deck leaves mana open all the time because most of the cards are instants. Lotus cobra has been amazing with so many fetchlands to fix the color demand of all the powerful but mana intensive creatures/effects. Orim, Misstep, Path to exile, Snapcaster, Aven and Clique are all at instant speed. Cobra+Fetchland enables you to cast those 3 drops or do multiple things.

Cobra is also very nice against mana denial decks. Magus or Cobra are very nice openings against Workshop decks. The thing about Magus of the Unseen is that he is a direct answer to 2 main win conditions, Tinker/Blight and Time Vault. You have to play around him and that is just what I want as the fish player. While you play around, more threats hit the board.

I agree about Mox Diamond! I am thinking about other options.

Snapcaster/Orim is superior to Isochron/Orim because of many reasons. For starters you can target other instants with Snapcaster plus he has a body and this is so important in this deck.Orim's chant can generate massive tempo but it can also be a weapon against ritual storm alongside missteps. Also, I have pushed through my Teeg and/or Maralen a couple of times with Orim. I like Orim and Snapcaster in this deck. Swinging that Clique and Cobra 1 additional turn makes the difference in my opinion and experience. Don't underestimate Orim's chant it is basically 2/3 of a time walk and if you can play it a couple of times your opponent is set back a lot. A cool thing about Orim is that you can easily win the race against aggro with your flyers. The kicker is deadly against the mirror and can at times be deadly with a newly cast Magus when they tinkered up Blightsteel.


Card choices, their meaning

Gaddock Teeg:
I am seeing people talk about Gaddock more but nobody is stepping up to try something new with him. Gaddock is obviously strong now, but it is still a card that will need a lot of support in order to work. A turn 2 Gaddock is fine on the play. As long as you play him before they have 2 islands. Gaddock in this deck is all about cutting off engines and win conditions. In other words to generate tempo and card advantage.

Magus of the Unseen:
He stops all the other win conditions that Gaddock does not and reinforces the Workshop match. Have you ever played against the Magus as Bue/X with Tinker as your main win condition? In order to win you have to use multiple turns to play around the guy. Same goes for TV. You can't cast it. Meanwhile I am flashing in guys end of your turn or in response. The deck is designed to generate mana with Cobra and to leave mana open.

Misstep/Path/Orim:
These are nice targets for the Snapcaster Mage. But I am sure there are other piles possible. I picked Path because I don't opt to deny mana but I opt to deny spells directly and generate tempo in that way. Orim and Misstep follow this strategy. Nice thing about Misstep is that you can cast it multiple times with 2 mana and the Mage. It makes things really interesting. Orim is also interesting when you have a Maralen active. Whatever they get they can't cast it and you get to swing another time. This also means they will take 6 damage from Maralen before they are able to cast anything. Not counting the swings but I am pretty sure that is about lethal in that phase of the game. I will probably test other instants along the road but so far these 3 has been great. In total there are 12 targets for 3 Mages in the deck.


Vendilion Clique:
People have come to really respect this card, and I am one of those people. You can't go wrong with him. He support your Gaddock so nicely with his thoughtseize effect. With Maralen, Clique becomes so deadly on their draw phase. One of those things you ramp into with Cobra. I also love this guy to get rid of your dead cards (like second Teeg or Clique or useless lands).

I am learning more about these cards as I test the deck. I have a feeling the Maralen is a missed opportunity for all these years. I have just recently discovered the card when I was browsing through the database. Yes it is mana intensive but not so much against Blue/x with all the fetchlands and duals plus Cobra. Add in some City of Brass and you will cast anything you want. So the problem is against wasteland.dec then? Not at all, especially with an active Magus you aren't really in a strip lock. If you can get down a Cobra and Magus, you will never be strip locked or stack locked. You do need the artifact acceleration. You could replace the diamonds with Sol ring and Ruby just to get more answers versus spheres and to have more turn 1 Magus and Cobra with Ruby.

I removed the Leonin, Diamon, 9 strip, Loam plan because it didn't work out. Or better, it didn't work out consistently.


All this being said I would make the following changes to the last list I posted:

-2 Mox Diamond
+1 Ruby +1 Sol Ring

-1 Cobra -1 Orim's Chant
+2 Trygon Predator

[serracollector]

Your still missing Edric from your list.  With so many flyers, and all of them with flash, I must say he is still an auto include.

Also, Why Orims over Abeyance?  Against big blue and MUD they do the same thing except u get to draw off abeyance making it even more of a timewalk effect than Orims'.  What creatures do your worry about your opponent playing?  Confidant and Lodestone?  You can misstep Welder, and you go path's for the others. 

Add abeyance and  Edric....now!

[madmanmike25]

Also, Why Orims over Abeyance?  Against big blue and MUD they do the same thing

Not at all.  When was the last time you saw MUD cast an instant or sorcery?  Orims Chant prevents EVERYTHING but land drops.

Play GW.

I think that will still remain the best home for Teeg.  Good luck though.

[Guli]

Your still missing Edric from your list.  With so many flyers, and all of them with flash, I must say he is still an auto include.

Also, Why Orims over Abeyance?  Against big blue and MUD they do the same thing except u get to draw off abeyance making it even more of a timewalk effect than Orims'.  What creatures do your worry about your opponent playing?  Confidant and Lodestone?  You can misstep Welder, and you go path's for the others.  

Add abeyance and  Edric....now!

I am not convinced about Orim's Chant so I am not adding Abeyance.


Gaddock Teeg, Vendilion Clique, Snapcaster Mage, Maralen of the Mornsong and Aven Mindcensor are the ones I am 100% sure of besides the power 9. (to make it maindeck)

I am pretty positive that Mental Misstep and Path to Exile should be in the deck as Snapcaster targets.

The targets for Maralen are Time Walk, Regrowth and Snapcaster Mage.

Magus of the Unseen is amazing in what it does, but I am perfectly comfortable in replacing him with something that does the same. And frankly With Snapcaster, Aven and Path to Exile I believe the Tinker issue is covered. That brings me to the next logic; why not use something like Nature's Claim to deal with Shop and give Snapcaster more targets to flashback. The Magus is in essence tech to stop Tinker, TV and Workshop but that was before I used Path to Exile. So now that Path is in, the Shop match and the Tinker problem is a bit less problematic and the slots for Magus could be used to cover for what Path does not give answers, artifact (and enchantment) destruction.

The only thing that I don't like is the life gain. So maybe Steel Sabotage would be the alternative. It would provide for yet another tool to get rid Blightsteel (and Sphinx). But bouncing is not destroying and this might matter.

I don't believe GW beats is the only home for teeg. I think Clique is awsome with Gaddock Teeg and the new Snapcaster Mage will gain a lot of CA with your instants. I believe Maralen has an extremely powerful effect, capable of winning you the game if they pass the turn. And with good tempo play and spell denial, it is very unlikely that they will win the game after you resolve Maralen. I realize the mana issue but you have to see that this only matter in the Shop and Fish match ups. And in those matches you have another plan and strategy (Path to Exile, Nature's Claim, Snapcaster Mage and Trygon)

Here would be an example list without the Magus and with Claim's and Trygons

EDIT:
@Serra
Edric is a valid suggestion, I am not dismissing it.

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth
2 Nature's Claim
4 Path to Exile
4 Mental Misstep

3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Maralen of the Mornsong
2Trygon Predator
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Lotus Cobra
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

4 City of Brass
1 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland

[Guli]

A couple things to share that showed up during play testing:

The fact that Gaddock answers certain spells and that Mental Misstep answers what Gaddock does not served me nicely. Some might remember me encouraging to play Sylvan Safekeeper to protect cards like Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist against decks like ritual combo who rely on that 1 chain of vapor (now dismember). Well, Mental Misstep narrows the outs for the opponent because it stops some forms of spot removal. I had a couple situations were this won me the game but there is more. The combination of Mental Misstep and Snap Mage enables me to stop what Fish usually can't or won't stop. It is those digging and searching the blue control players often do in the initial turns to fix their hand. So now I can interact with them with Misstep followed by another Misstep thanks to Snap Mage. I am stopping Ponders, Preordains, Topdeck tutors and so on. Normally this would not matter that much but being able to cast 2 or more cards because of Missteps actually matters a lot. You also follow it up with Gaddock Teeg and Clique to target whatever else is left in their hand. This is all happening WITH a body. With this I mean you are getting beaters on the table and the clock is ticking.

Against blue Aven and Maralen has been great on top of all the previous cute plays I described. But I believe the cheap removal spells versus a prison deck like Workshop must be maximized in order to survive long enough. Still, Gaddock, Missteps, Snap Mage and Clique are not always enough to get to the finish because they might get countered or they could die. So you need additional threats like Aven Mindcensor while reserving enough slots to fight Lodestone Golem and the other sphere effects. You also need and have Lotus Cobra, full moxes and the Fetch lands to generate enough mana to play around any spheres and remove their threats and to replay your removals with Snap Mage.

You will have a hard time casting things at cvc 1 agains this pile. Gaddock takes care of 4 and above plus X. The spells at cvc 3 that worries us is Tinker and we have Aven and Path to exile for this but also indirectly the Missteps because they usually tutor for it. So that leave me with the question: would it be sound and interesting to play Spell Snare to catch those spells at cvc 2? I am trying this out and will report on it here. I tried out Spell Pierce but the problem is we don't kill fast enough to make it a hard counter during the course of a game. Also we don't deny mana, we deny spells and Spell Pierce needs mana denial if you want to use it in Fish. This list with Gaddock loves hard counters and tries to catch as much cards as it can (that is the meaning of 'Fish'ing)

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
4 City of Brass
1 Polluted Delta
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth
2 Nature's Claim
3 Spell Snare
3 Path to Exile
4 Mental Misstep
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Maralen of the Mornsong
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Lotus Cobra
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Trygon Predator
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Trygon Predator
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap

[Daenyth]

How effective is Azure mage? You didn't mention it at all? What about Meddling mage, Azorius guildmage, voidmage prodigy, bob? What's the rationale for that slot?

[Beralt]

I think that when Guli posted Azure Mage, he meant Snapcaster?  It's the focus of the 2nd paragraph, so as a new card I think of it as a blue mage, maybe he just juxtaposed the names.

[Daenyth]

I think that when Guli posted Azure Mage, he meant Snapcaster?  It's the focus of the 2nd paragraph, so as a new card I think of it as a blue mage, maybe he just juxtaposed the names.

I think you're right; now that I look at it, I don't see snapcaster in the list.

[xouman]

Maralen likes Confidant, Aven, Leonine Arbiter, Vial (playing maralen in opponent's turn). Vial likes Voidmage Prodigy, Leonine Relic Ward, and both cards also work very nice with maralen since they combat BSC and Vault, besides Golems. The problem is that I'm not sure if Maralen is needed: opponent can fetch bombs while you can only fetch more disruption. I'd play Canonists, as bad against MUD but better against gushes.

And what do we have? a deck very similar to Vial Wizards :p

3-cursecatcher
4-dark confidant
4-voidmage prodigy
3-leonine arbiter
3-relic ward
3-Vendillion
3-aven mindcensor
2-kataki

4-aether vial

4-fow
3-mental misstep
1-brainstorm
1-ancestral
1-time walk

1-black lotus
3-on color moxen
5-fetchlands
2-underground sea
3-tundra
2-island
1-strip mine
4-wasteland

[Guli]

I think that when Guli posted Azure Mage, he meant Snapcaster?  It's the focus of the 2nd paragraph, so as a new card I think of it as a blue mage, maybe he just juxtaposed the names.

I think you're right; now that I look at it, I don't see snapcaster in the list.

Corrected, was using Azure as proxy on cockatrice. Snapcaster Mage is an amazing CA card. Does what BoB would do.

[Guli]

Ok for those who are interested: I have tried Maralen and I like it a lot, but it is hard to promote the card because there is a puplic opinion that says 'nah' to the card. So here is a more 'acceptable' (to the norm) list with a more stable mana base featuring Gaddock Teeg. The way this deck recycles (if it ever gets to a long game and you need to get do this) is Vendillion Clique and Karakas. Karakas also protects and gets rid of some Oath creatures. When enough mana is build up, Karakas and Clique can enable a peek on every draw step of the opponent.

Another thing I sneaked in there is Trade Routes. It works nicely with Cobra and can recycle your useless land draws or even the ones on the board. It can also protect against a late waste/strip lock. Something techy, I know, but I like it so far.

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Path to Exile
3 Mental Misstep
3 Flusterstorm
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Trade Routes

3 Trygon Predator
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lotus Cobra

3 Karakas
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Island

SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Porcelain Legionnaire
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt

[Stormanimagus]

Ok for those who are interested: I have tried Maralen and I like it a lot, but it is hard to promote the card because there is a puplic opinion that says 'nah' to the card. So here is a more 'acceptable' (to the norm) list with a more stable mana base featuring Gaddock Teeg. The way this deck recycles (if it ever gets to a long game and you need to get do this) is Vendillion Clique and Karakas. Karakas also protects and gets rid of some Oath creatures. When enough mana is build up, Karakas and Clique can enable a peek on every draw step of the opponent.

Another thing I sneaked in there is Trade Routes. It works nicely with Cobra and can recycle your useless land draws or even the ones on the board. It can also protect against a late waste/strip lock. Something techy, I know, but I like it so far.

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Path to Exile
3 Mental Misstep
3 Flusterstorm
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Trade Routes

3 Trygon Predator
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lotus Cobra

3 Karakas
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Island

SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Porcelain Legionnaire
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt

This is actually a very promising list Guli. Flusterstorm scares me a bit without ANY form of mana denial, but that is something I could still see as effective in your list. Only some minor changes that I might make are these:

-1 Vendilion Clique (Legendary)
-1 Gaddock (moved to SB maybe?)
-1 Snapcaster Mage

+1 Mental Misstep
+1 Swords
+1 Trygon Predator MD

Anyhoo, interesting list, I'll look forward to testing against it at some point.

-Storm

[Guli]

Ye the list looks nice, but it is in development.


I was wondering if it would be possible to sneak in Force of Will in it while keeping 2-3 Teeg maindeck (with 3 karakas this should be interesting). I make it a rule for myself to have a 'refill plan' when I use FoW in my fish builds. So I figured, I either play some critter that draw me card, OR I add tutors to the deck to get my A recall and recast it with Snap Mage. How is that for a refill plan? I just double Recall. That should seal the deal in a deck like this. You aren't really going for a super long game. The idea behind this is too cheaply counter those early spells with Misstep/Force of Will (to enable interaction from the very beginning) and then move on to do some Snap Mage action to stop the second wave and get those teeg, clique, predator, aven in in between thanks to the Cobra acceleration. After that you should tutor for your recall and draw into more snap mages to do another recall.

So Mystical, Merchant Scroll, Recall, Time Walk?!?

Another thing I want to note about running 4 Force of Will and 2-3 Gaddock Teeg is that the reason behind this is the follow issue: It is hard to stop the blue control player from casting multiple bombs. You could stop that first bomb with Force and you could stop that first recall or whatever 1 cc spell with Misstep, but after that you need some permanent to stop the Jace, Gush or Fact or Fiction. Gaddock can be the 5-7th Force of Will on legs here. Also in a deck with full acceleration, 4 Trygon, 4 Force of Will, 4 Lotus Cobra AND 5 Path/STP your match up against any form of Workshop is strong. And that is in game one...

A list with Force of Will looks like this in my mind (without SB):

1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Path to Exile
4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Trade Routes

4 Trygon Predator
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lotus Cobra

3 Karakas
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Island

About the SB, I am trying some new untried tech for it.

[Shax]

*Snippet*

So you intend to play x4 Force of Wills, THE Force of Wills that can potentially save your match, or otherwise be another dead in the water topdeck with Gaddock Teeg out? I thought one of the best things about playing with Gaddock Teeg is that you don't play  spells, exception being Green Sun's Zenith. (?) Or things that cost over  . Correct me if I' am wrong.

[Guli]

*Snippet*

So you intend to play x4 Force of Wills, THE Force of Wills that can potentially save your match, or otherwise be another dead in the water topdeck with Gaddock Teeg out? I thought one of the best things about playing with Gaddock Teeg is that you don't play   spells, exception being Green Sun's Zenith. (?) Or things that cost over  . Correct me if I' am wrong.

This has been done before, and decks have top 8 with this recently.

You don't always draw Gaddock Teeg and you can't really cast it turn 1. In a deck with ESG the potential turn 1 Teeg, running Force of Will would be worse than running it in this list. In this list Gaddock is a card that you try to play after Force has done its job (turn 0, 1 and 2). There is a chance to topdeck FoW after you cast Gaddock Teeg. This is the obvious drawback but I would like to test this and see how much of a big deal this is. There are a couple things I want to find out. First, how many times does this happen in say 100 games? And second, is having 1 dead card so so bad if it means you have an active Gaddock Teeg. Then there is the Karakas factor. Theoretically you can bounce Gaddock and cast Force of Will and then recast Gaddock the next turn. Then there is the Clique factor, you can get rid of dead cards and keep doing this with Karakas after you attack. Maybe we should ask those who actually top 8 with Force of Will/Gaddock in the same deck.

[Joblin Velder]

I actually like the interaction of Force, Teeg, and Karakas. That's some serious insurance. In testing, has it been relevant? It seems like it could be awesome or super cutesy.

[serracollector]

-2 Path to Exile
+2 Wipe Away

-1 StP
+1 Edric
-1 Cobra
+1 Edric

I been testing a UG build using wipe aways, sowers of temptation, and green suns zenith with 4 cobra, some trygons, and 2 edrics, and it has been doing quite well.

Wipe aways is uncounterable, un-"in response I will", bounce, stops all tinker bots (since only Blight is played...), and can stop vault/key, or Oath, or Oath fatty.  With cobra, and without cobra, its easy to cast.  Also, your lack of edric saddens me.  Edric, Snapcaster, Time walk gg?
 Come on.

[SadDubs]

-2 Path to Exile
+2 Wipe Away

-1 StP
+1 Edric
-1 Cobra
+1 Edric

I been testing a UG build using wipe aways, sowers of temptation, and green suns zenith with 4 cobra, some trygons, and 2 edrics, and it has been doing quite well.

Wipe aways is uncounterable, un-"in response I will", bounce, stops all tinker bots (since only Blight is played...), and can stop vault/key, or Oath, or Oath fatty.  With cobra, and without cobra, its easy to cast.  Also, your lack of edric saddens me.  Edric, Snapcaster, Time walk gg?
 Come on.

Sounds interesting, would you mind posting your list?

[serracollector]

// Lands
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Misty Rainforest
    4  Tropical Island
    1 [MPR] Wasteland
    4  Breeding Pool
    1 [GUR] Island
    1 [BRB] Forest (8)
    2  Edric, Spymaster of Trest

// Creatures
    4  Noble Hierarch
    3  Lotus Cobra
    2  Trygon Predator
    1  Vendilion Clique
    2  Sower of Temptation

// Spells
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Emerald
    3  Spell Pierce
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1 [V09] Mystical Tutor
    2  Mental Misstep
    3  Mana Leak
    1  Time Walk
    1  Hurkyl's Recall
    1  Green Sun's Zenith
    2  Wipe Away
    3  Fact or Fiction
    4  Force of Will
    1  Misdirection

// Sideboard
SB: 4  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3  Pithing Needle
SB: 2  Mental Misstep
SB: 2  Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 4  Energy Flux

My deck obv doesn't play gaddock teeg, but instead uses fof, counters, and green suns zenith to power out Edrics for CA to just out counter and win.

[Guli]

Edric is a mistake as a draw engine when you are trying to flash things into play and bounce them. Not just the ones that are legendary, but you also want to bounce SCM (Snapcaster Mage) for example. Therefore, I think it is a design mistake to just throw in Edric in the deck. I believe a card like Ninja of the Deep Hours would fit better.

The plan with mystical into recall with the idea of SCM the recall takes time and is slow to setup. A lot of tempo is lost and I think it is not worth it.

A more fluent plan to refill your hand and to keep an active SCM could be to go with NDH.


Interesting list with Fact or Fiction. A card that probably deserves a shot in some kind of Noble/Cobra build. Still, feels off just to use it as CA no? I would at least try some graveyard play with it like flashback cards, SCM, that new blue 5/6 flyer requiring to exile 3 creature cards to play from the grave. No Welders, No Y Will hmmmm just raw FoF, I am not entirely convinced.