Venser/O-Ring

[ezellohar]

  I need a step by step explanation of the interaction between these cards.  I believe I know the interactions, but there is a claim that it's a two card combo.  Thanks in advance.

[Delha]

You need to be more specific, there are two cards named Venser. Also, the standard policy for posting questions states that you should include the rules text for the cards involved.

That said, I assume you mean Venser, the Soujourner and want to know what happens when you use the +2 ability on Ring. The simple answer is "nothing special". O-Ring leaves, and the exiled permanent comes back. When O-Ring comes back, it will exile a new permanent. Planeswalker abilities can only be played with sorcery timing, so you can't use Venser to get the cute ETB/LTB interactions that you're presumably hoping for.

[ezellohar]

  I do apologize.  I made the post quickly from my phone right before a tourney was starting.  I did mean the Sojourner, yes.  I understand the way the interactions work, the other person claims that the permanent stays gone for good. I tried to explain that that requires Hourglass. He says a judge told him it's a two card combo for evoking cards permanently.  Thanks for not flaming me.  Again, I do apologize.

Venser, the Sojourner
Mana Cost:

Converted Mana Cost:
5

Types:
Planeswalker — Venser
Card Text:
+2: Exile target permanent you own. Return it to the battlefield under your control at the beginning of the next end step.
-1: Creatures are unblockable this turn.
-8: You get an emblem with "Whenever you cast a spell, exile target permanent."
Loyalty:
3



  Ok.  At a real PC now.  Again, sorry for the brevity before.  The issue is the interaction between Venser the Sojourner and Oblivion Ring.  He claims that if he exiles his O-Ring with Venser, the original permanent removed stays removed.  He says this is because the O-Ring never actually leaves play, but is "tethered" by Venser.  He says this is what a judge told him.  I went through the interactions step by step.  He agreed that I was right on each point, but that this ability applies only to Venser the Sojourner.  This guy is the one who runs the local tournies.  I just came back to Magic after leaving around Onslaught.  Played mostly Type I at that time.  I admit I am rusty, but I don't think the cards work this way.  Any responses matter very little though.  He says he won't believe anything posted on this site.

[Nefarias]

That dude is totally wrong and Delha is right. "Tethering" is not a word in the Magic rules and has no special meaning. There ARE tricks you can do with Oblivion Ring to kill something permanently, but they all require instants or abilities you can activate at instant speed. To my knowledge there is nothing that will let you activate a Planeswalker's abilities at any time other than at sorcery speed, so there's no way to trick it.

[Delha]

This guy is the one who runs the local tournies.  I just came back to Magic after leaving around Onslaught.  Played mostly Type I at that time.  I admit I am rusty, but I don't think the cards work this way.  Any responses matter very little though.  He says he won't believe anything posted on this site.

If you've got any other feasible options, I'd consider playing elsewhere. It sounds like that guy is both ignorant AND too stubborn to improve. One misinterpretation of rules is a rather small thing, but I highly doubt that this one instance is the full extent of what he's doing wrong.

If you're still set on convincing him that he's wrong, you can use the Gatherer entry and point out that there's no "special rule" listed for Venser. Also, you can direct him to the comp rules, and point out that at no point in the 192 page document does it include the word "tether" or describe a special rules exception for Venser the Sojourner ("Venser" only appears once in the entire document, when included in a list of the planeswalker types).

In both cases, he can Google this himself and get the info from official WOTC resources, so there's no dispute over the reliability of the info. Also, if he trusts MTG Salvation, maybe you can write in your question to Cranial Insertion.

[ezellohar]

  I posted on the Wizards  boards and a judge was nice enough to PM me that my interpretation was correct.  I don't have a lot of options currently, as the nearest place other than this to play is over one hundred miles from me.  I'm working on starting up a place of my own, however.  Later in the night after posting the Venser question, he and I got into it over creature ability interactions.  He told me that if a creature ability is put on the stack and the creature is killed, the ability fizzles.  He even explained the workings of the stack to me, heh.  I used my Grim Lavamancer.  He removed it with removal and refused to take the damage.  He explained that removing the cause of the ability now removes the effect.  So yeah.  And everyone here listens to him.

[Daenyth]

Do you have a smart phone? That's an easy one to refute since it's not even an interaction, there's a single rule that proves him wrong.

112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won't affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, "Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player") rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it's expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.

Can you pull this out on him? http://www.wizards.com/magic/comprules/MagicCompRules_20110930.txt

[Tha Gunslinga]

That one has been that way since Alpha, too; it's in the early rulebooks.  If I shoot an arrow at someone, and they shoot me with a gun in response, the arrow is still traveling towards them, right?

[Delha]

That one has been that way since Alpha, too; it's in the early rulebooks.  If I shoot an arrow at someone, and they shoot me with a gun in response, the arrow is still traveling towards them, right?

Seriously. I remember using that analogy for Tims back in 1996.

[Nefarias]

That one has been that way since Alpha, too; it's in the early rulebooks.  If I shoot an arrow at someone, and they shoot me with a gun in response, the arrow is still traveling towards them, right?

Seriously. I remember using that analogy for Tims back in 1996.

Ha! That's the one I heard too (except it was two arrows)! Is it actually worded that way in the Alpha rule books or something?

[Delha]

I wouldn't know, I learned off the 4th Ed rulebook, and Revised is the oldest one I've got.

[diopter]

That one has been that way since Alpha, too; it's in the early rulebooks.  If I shoot an arrow at someone, and they shoot me with a gun in response, the arrow is still traveling towards them, right?

Seriously. I remember using that analogy for Tims back in 1996.

Ha! That's the one I heard too (except it was two arrows)! Is it actually worded that way in the Alpha rule books or something?

My memory is hazy but I seem to remember a similar wording in the 5th ed book

[ezellohar]

  Well.  I caught the guy away from everyone else.  He was leaving because there weren't enough players to draft.  I explained that I had two judges on the Wizards boards refuting his working of Venser/O-Ring.  He was resistant at first, but then said ok, as long as I printed out the posts to show him.  I then explained the abilities thing.  He said that I was wrong, that it was never that way.  That as long as he had played Magic, no one had ever done it that way.  I read rule 112.7a to him.  He said that it wasn't done that way where he usually played, nor was it done that way at the PQ's he had attended.  He told me to ask the other local players.  I walked over to do that, and he said to just never mind.  If I wanted to question everything, to just not come back.  Told me I was banned from the tournaments.  
  So yeah.  I just came back, spent a fortune to get to be able to play standard.  Went to one tourney.  Whee.  After he left, everyone else explained that they don't question him on rules, because he yells at them.

[VintagePimp]

Sounds like that dude needs a Brute slap.

[Daenyth]

 Well.  I caught the guy away from everyone else.  He was leaving because there weren't enough players to draft.  I explained that I had two judges on the Wizards boards refuting his working of Venser/O-Ring.  He was resistant at first, but then said ok, as long as I printed out the posts to show him.  I then explained the abilities thing.  He said that I was wrong, that it was never that way.  That as long as he had played Magic, no one had ever done it that way.  I read rule 112.7a to him.  He said that it wasn't done that way where he usually played, nor was it done that way at the PQ's he had attended.  He told me to ask the other local players.  I walked over to do that, and he said to just never mind.  If I wanted to question everything, to just not come back.  Told me I was banned from the tournaments.  
  So yeah.  I just came back, spent a fortune to get to be able to play standard.  Went to one tourney.  Whee.  After he left, everyone else explained that they don't question him on rules, because he yells at them.

Does he have the authority to ban you from tournaments? If so, I'd register a complaint with the DCI and get his Tournament Organizer status revoked. It's not in WotC's interest to have TOs abusing the players like that.

If he doesn't have any authority, then just say fuck it and show up anyway.

[ezellohar]

  I guess he had authority.  He was the event coordinator.  It's a bit of a weird situation.  We had a great local shop, but it shut down years ago because the operator got burned out and went into real estate.  His parents took over and kind of ran it into the ground.  We had a pretty decent Magic community, but no shop.  Everyone drifted away until the guy I've been talking about figured out he could get Hastings to allow tournies.  Mind you, this guy isn't from here.  No one knew him.  Apparently, he set up shop here to get easy wins.  Then I came back and messed it all up, it seems.  He closed shop the day after he told me I was banned.  Just didn't show up to the tournament he had scheduled.  His Facebook apparently says that he is done with Magic in our town.  So, we just have to get a new coordinator I would guess.

[Delha]

  I guess he had authority.  He was the event coordinator.  It's a bit of a weird situation.  We had a great local shop, but it shut down years ago because the operator got burned out and went into real estate.  His parents took over and kind of ran it into the ground.  We had a pretty decent Magic community, but no shop.  Everyone drifted away until the guy I've been talking about figured out he could get Hastings to allow tournies.  Mind you, this guy isn't from here.  No one knew him.  Apparently, he set up shop here to get easy wins.  Then I came back and messed it all up, it seems.  He closed shop the day after he told me I was banned.  Just didn't show up to the tournament he had scheduled.  His Facebook apparently says that he is done with Magic in our town.  So, we just have to get a new coordinator I would guess.

I realize it kinda sucks that there's no scene immediately available now, but good riddance to that fucker. He was clearly just there to rip off the local playerbase.