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Author Topic: Snapcaster Mage with Blue Engines: Don't Cross the Streams?  (Read 3691 times)
Onslaught
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« on: February 13, 2012, 12:23:21 am »

Established Blue Engines:

Gush
Dark Confidant
Oath
Standstill

For the most part, these are all defining cards of a deck. Almost every blue deck will run four copies of something on that list. There usually isn't much overlap between them either, other than Oath lists using Gush and the fleeting appearance of Bob/Gush last summer. Mystic Remora deserves an honorable mention here, but it will always show up with one of the other engines and not just by itself.

Snapcaster can sort of be seen as an engine unto itself. For example:

Quote from: Kevin Cron, T8 at Meandeck Open
Creatures [5]
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Snapcaster Mage

Instants [22]
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Nature's Claim
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Spell Snare
3 Flusterstorm
3 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep

Sorceries [6]
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will


Planeswalkers [2]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts [10]
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

Lands [15]
1 Island
2 City of Brass
2 Riptide Laboratory
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Doom Blade
2 Nature's Claim
1 Forest
2 Trygon Predator

This uses none of the established blue engines, and relies on Snapcaster to provide overwhelming redundancy. At the same time, Snapcaster also gives you extreme versatility with a minimal investment in "wildcards." Running 1-2 copies of Flusterstorm, REB, Nature's Claim, and other techy cards in the maindeck is very efficient. You have repeated access to blowout effects in appropriate matchups, but you also aren't clogging up your hand with potentially dead cards in other matchups. When you see Snapcaster being a splash like this, it is usually assimilating into deck's strategy instead of supporting it entirely by himself. That's what I'm much more interested in lately - Snapcaster as an addition to the existing engines. Most of these questions are already answered:

Oath: Can't play Snapcaster
Dark Confidant: Snapcaster/Bob decks have been the best deck in Europe for a while now
Standstill:  Snapcaster has made T8 in some Landstill lists
Gush: . . .

So of the existing engines, it's safe to say that Snapcaster plays nicest with Bob. It's a very powerful deck, and I think it returns Suicide Jace Vault type builds to prominence. Anyway, Gush has had very little exploration with Snapcaster (at least in terms of mindshare). Intuitively, it seems like they have a bit of conflict between them. Snapcaster is mana hungry, Gush decks can often be mana thrifty. My first test was to take the most "pure" Gush deck I could think of, and just shove 3 Snapcaster in without modifying the deck around him. Rich Shay's Champs list was a good starting point, since it is entirely focused around Gush. It evolved into this:

Quote
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurky's Recall
3 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Gush
3 Mental Misstep
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Preordain
1 Fastbond
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Tropical Island
3 Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta

So, this was an exercise to see how the tension between Gush and Snapcaster worked with no real attention paid to maximizing Snapcaster's usefulness. This already has a fair amount of cards that Snapcaster likes to see though, such as Mana Crypt and some hard counters. The result was very good even with minimal tweaking. Basically, Snapcaster is completely ridiculous even if it does nothing other than flash Misstep or wait for an attempt to flash Ancestral. He also makes your sideboard stuff get a lot more bang for its buck. Against any deck where you want to bring something like Dismember in, it is a complete blowout to be able to flash it back. Not to mention he can surprise block, protect Jace, etc. All of this is fairly obvious, it's not a news flash that Snapcaster is good. What was surprising about this is that he was still INSANELY good with no real changes made to an existing Gush deck. I swapped out the Duress that Rich had for a Flusterstorm, dropped Regrowth/the 4th Misstep/a Hurk's for 3 Snapcaster, and that was pretty much it. Somewhat on topic side note: I want Tendrils or ETW in pretty much any Gush deck these days, at least until the new explosion of Cage exploration subsides. It's really nice to ignore Cage and just Storm out, whether through a lethal Tendrils or a nice meaty ETW for 10 tokens.

After accepting that Snapcaster can easily coexist with pure Gush build, I went wild trying other things. After playing Gush/Snapcaster/Drains, I wanted to try something more aggressive with a lighter mana base. Here is one recent configuration, with nods to Meandeck Bob/Gush and Pikula's "4-3-2" deck.

Quote from: 4-3-2-1.dec

3 Dark Confidant
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Trygon Predator
2 Vendilion Clique
1 BSC

1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral
1 Brainstorm
1 SDT
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Gush

4 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep
1 Misdirection
1 Echoing Truth
1 Nature's Claim

1 Fastbond
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's
1 Jace

1 Lotus
5 Mox
7 Fetch
3 Sea
2 Trop
2 Island

Sideboard: 1 Nihil, 1 Jailer, 4 Leyline, 2 Dismember, 2 Fluster, 2 Hurks, 2 Claim, 1 Forest

The Misdirection slot goes back and forth a lot, competing with the third copy of Misstep. You could also easily cut a Clique for a second Jace. There is other shuffling around you could do to capitalize a bit more on Snapcaster, like a Steel Sabotage. Echoing Truth deserves the slot over Hurk's though. Notice the lack of Crypt/Sol Ring in a deck that only has Tinker as a reasonable victory condition. Also, note how I am going against my own self imposed rule of trying to include a Storm victory condition as backup against Cage. That's mostly OK, because there are a lot of maindeck answers. It's also OK because this deck in general is insane. It has the exact kind of flow I was looking for. While Snapcaster was a worthwhile addition in the more controlling Drain build, he really does some nice things with this kind of deck. Maxing out on Preordain to dig for a bomb gets much, much better when you have Snapcaster to give you a second chance at the bomb (or the ability to better protect your bomb). He also helps you muck up the boad with creatures, which is nice to buy some turns in this creature infested meta. Post board, Snapcaster is also such a superstar.

I also tried a version of this with less creatures and using Vault/Key. And another build that had 2 copies of Thoughtseize. And another with Tendrils. And about 10 other variants that all had their own flavor. Once you start overlapping blue engines, the sky is really the limit. You already had so many choices to make, just within each engine. Oath deck? Well is it Tyrant, or Demon, or Golden Gun? Is your Landstill deck 2 or 3 colors? Null Rods? EEs? What kind of Gush deck are you using? Gush with Remora? Gush with Tarmogoyfs? Gush storm? Gush control? In Gush control, are you using a storm spell? Do you have the full amount of Preordains, or just x2? Maindeck Grudge, or Claim instead? Maindeck Trygons?

There were so many existing blue decks, and now Snapcaster has just given us an even more exciting number of choices. Are you using Snapcaster control with four copies and Riptide Lab, or splashing him into a Bob deck? Splashing him with Gush? Splashing him with Bob AND Gush? And to think, this is just the "top tier" blue stuff. There are still countless viable blue decks, like Bomberman or other rogue/pet lists. Then, the other archetypes...aggro has Noble Fish, a rapidly improving GW deck, and the always threatening RG beatz. Dredge is still a force. Workshops have four completely distinct and all equally viable builds. Rituals could rise again in the face of Cage. All of these other viable decks just give you more choices on how you want to utilize Snapcaster in your blue deck (if at all). The more good decks there are, the more other semi-good decks can sneak through the cracks...which in turns causes more decks to become good. It's just beautiful to be playing Vintage right now!

All that being said, Snapcaster's greatest strength is its versatility. With so many potential decks that you might encounter, Snapcaster will give you extra mileage out of your best cards for that matchup.
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Caron
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2012, 11:17:08 am »

... you did not mention the intuition AK blue engine which is fantastic with Snapcaster mage... try it trust me...


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« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2012, 08:33:28 am »

Figuring out the best pairing for Snapcaster has been tough. Intuition/AK is one engine im testing, gush is another, & rituals are yet another. If the deck used more creatures (like bob & so forth) then ninja of the deep hours is even a fringe consideration. one thing I know is that loading up a deck with every restricted spell & 4 snapcasters gives you a lot of gas. Playing Draw 7's from the graveyard is crazy. The deck honestly feels like it picked up 4 blue regrowths. I have no idea where the final design will end up.
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« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2012, 09:40:39 am »

The list I ran in the first Cockatrice event has a lot of similarities to your Gush list:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43582.0

Basically the snapcaster added utility, redundancy, helped your 1-ofs and ate bobs and floating blue mana.  They helped the deck, but didn't redefine it.  I'm more in line with Justin that there's a broken restricted list deck out there that hasn't been cracked yet.  May be intuition based, may be draw7s, hard to say yet.
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« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2012, 10:18:23 am »

The draw 7 builds im testing originally ran dark rituals, but I'm not very confident in the Tendrils kill at the moment. Gush & Fastbond do a great job. Went with the tinkerbot/vault key win conditions. What I found was that you're rushing to abuse ancestral & if you run out of gas then hit the draw 7's until you can abuse ancestral. I know this is obvious but figured I'd add it in there. I'm using a full suite of tutors, including imperial seal.  I added Gitaxian probe originally so that snapcasters can always have something to flashback (and for storm) , but they seemed better for reducing the topdeck tutor lag. Empty the Warrens still may be good since it is more castable without the rituals.
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« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2012, 12:36:28 pm »

I've been doing fairly well with Bob-based lists:


4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, The Mindsculptor
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
3 Mana Drain
1 Flusterstorm
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Brainstorm
1 Tinker
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Dismember

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Mental Misstep
1 Spell Snare
1 Doom Blade
1 Dismember

Snapcasters pretty much take place of preordains from older bob control lists.  Rather than scrying for 2, we're playing Time Walk twice, with Bob on the board.

I'm interested in trying something more aggressive, so the idea of introducing draw-7's seems intriguing (for non-Bob decks).  Timetwister might not even be terrible with Mr. Snappy Pants.

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« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2012, 04:42:50 pm »

New BBS -

4 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Mana Drain
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Tinker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Black Lotus
1 Time Walk
3 Back to Basics
1 Sol Ring
1 Rebuild
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Echoing Truth
10 Snow-Covered Island
8 Island

1 Dismember

Snaping back a FoF is brutal & FoF with snap in hand is a draw 4.

Snapcaster lets you cut the mana leaks and run the same ridiculous amount of counters.

I'm sure counterspell looks terrible but I don't want situational counters. The only thing you really fear being resolved quickly are 2+ drops (bob, oath, & tinker). Yes it sucks if they fire off an ancestral before you have two islands but it also sucks when they resolve a tinker t4 and you have two MM in hand.

I've switched between dismember and psionic blast. PB gives you reach w/ snapcaster and can be fetched by merchant scroll. Dismember is very cheap.

Anyway, its a lot of fun to play but certainly can be optimized. The inability to remove anything could be addressed with ratchet bomb if you feel like experimenting.


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« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2012, 10:22:35 pm »

Heres an updated version of the deck I top 4ed with last month and have been doing well with in the small local tournaments.  My overall record with it in tournament play is 9-2-2.

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dismember
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Mental Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Mana Drain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mindbreak Trap
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Time Walk
1 Fire/Ice
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Trinket Mage
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Ninja of the Deep Hours
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Strip Mine
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea

SB:
1 Underground Sea
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Misdirection
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Dismember
2 Spell Snare
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ingot Chewer

This deck completely abuses Snapcaster Mage.  The use of him allows my mana base to be more stable, allowing me to play Magus of the Moon.  Snapcaster also combines extremely well with Gitaxian Probe and Ninja of the Deep Hours by providing enormous amounts of card advantage and allowing me to aggressively play my snapcasters.  Any deck looking to maximize his ability should be playing at least 2 probes and if they have enough other creatures they should also strongly consider ninja.
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