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Author Topic: [Premium Article] Ultimate Innistrad Vintage Set Review & Complete T1 Checklist  (Read 5631 times)
Smmenen
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« on: September 30, 2011, 03:01:48 pm »

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2243

Editor's Blurb:

Quote
Stephen takes an in-depth look at Innistrad with this 40 page set review.  He comprehensively examines every angle of Innistrad (and every card! -- although unplayables only receive a 1 sentence note) in his characteristically detailed style.  This is the ultimate Innistrad set review.  In addition, Stephen updates the Complete Vintage Checklist, a must-have for every serious Vintage player and collector!

Opening, Teaser Essay:

INVESTIGATING INNISTRAD

Originality is overrated. Just about everything that is possible in Magic was sowed in the seeds of Alpha, planted nearly two decades ago by Richard Garfield and his crew. How ironically appropriate that Richard Garfield should return, once more, to the design team of the game he created for its most recent expansion.

The Return to Mirrodin was not what we expected. Mirrodin originally was a bombastic, operatic block with an array of innovative mechanics (affinity, indestructible) and broken spells (Chrome Mox, Chalice of the Void, Thirst for Knowledge, Trinisphere, Crucible of Worlds, among many others). The Vintage format gained a plethora of weapons that continue to shape the format to this day in perceptible and imperceptible ways.

Although the Return to Mirrodin brought many new cards, what emerged from New Mirrodin were really two very different kinds of cards: huge monsters and madcap magical tricks. The initial impact of Mirrodin may appear to be very much like least exciting half of original Mirrodin: Mishra’s Workshop-fueled monsters like Steel Hellkite, Precursor Golem, and Wurmcoil Engine. Yet, what we left Mirrodin with looks very different: Mental Misstep proliferating for tempo plays, Surgical Extraction and Dismember as surprise sideboard cards, Gitaxian Probe providing valuable information for free, Leonin Relic-Warder jumping out of Aether Vials, the unheralded Slash Panther tearing into Jaces, Phyrexian Metamorph and Phyrexian Revoker giving Workshop decks more utility, and the most outrageous finisher ever, Blightsteel Colossus.

In comparison to these zany tactics, Innistrad offers a return to brass tacks. Innistrad is a recentering for Magic away from free spells, eccentric tactics and tricks, and towards simplified effects and normal spells. While this may strike some as boring, it actually comes as a relief. A sense of regularity has been restored.

While Vintage may be Magic’s oldest format, it is not immune to the winds of change. In a span of 12 months, Vintage has been bookended by two major unrestrictions, and buffeted by unrelenting introduction of new printings at a pace never before seen – from Scars of Mirrodin, Mirrodin Besieged, New Phyrexia, to Commander and M12. In between these printings has been the unrestriction of Gush, Frantic Search, and most recently Fact or Fiction. The format is running on a track that is not merely wet, but greased. Players accustomed to a deliberate pace of play and deck development may have difficulty getting their bearings, or find themselves lost without a compass.

One consequence of this inexorable and uncompromising march of new cards into the format is that potentially pivotal cards may become overlooked. It appears that Flusterstorm’s full potential took longer than expected to bear fruit, but what about cards like Leonin Relic-Warder? Has it realized its full potential, or is it just beginning to scratch the surface? What about cards that came out strong, but disappeared, like Mox Opal, Ratchet Bomb, or Steel Hellkite? What about sleepers like Leonin Arbiter, Grand Abolisher, or even Vedalken Certarch? What about solid tactics like Buried Ruin or Contagion Clasp? Or potential engine cards like Frantic Search or Riddlesmith? At what point do these cards deserve another look? More importantly, when do they get another look? Will they be lost perpetually in the metaphorical shuffle, or will they be brought into the realm of playability by their application with new printings, or to address metagame concerns?

The only scar left by the Scars block may be on the invisible subconscious of the Magic player, left with an array of dizzying tactics and no time to try them all out. In that context, we can thank the designers of Innistrad for returning Magic to brass tacks, and a return to “normalcy.” It is a set with solid tools, important plays, and a simplified design. There may be fewer overall playables in this block for Vintage, but those have the potential to be vital building blocks, not fringe answers, wild tactics, or broken finishers.

You may find these observations strange in a set that broke rules and created new ones with checklists and flip cards. These cards are merely a footnote for the Vintage player, whose implications lie beyond card play or deck design. These cards raise questions about the logistics of Magic player behavior, proxies, and card identity, but do not bear on the evolution of the format directly. As a set, and presumably, a block, the importance of Innistrad may be found in its spells, not its keywords, mechanics, or rules changes. And, for this, we may find some measure of respite. We can appreciate the design teams in R&D for their efforts to push the boundaries of Magic design in the last two years, but we can also thank them for guiding us back to calm waters.

While the flashback mechanic offers some of the most tantalizing possibilities to the Vintage designer, and may ultimately prove to be Innistrad’s most enduring legacy, both the greater portion of the set’s playables and the set as a whole read like a return to M10. Snapcaster Mage is the figurehead of Innistrad, but only because of its presence there. It is an ill-fitting symbolic representative to a set that otherwise serves a normalizing function.

More than anything else, Innistrad represents a realignment of the Magic card pool. It is not a shift in terms of efficiency or power levels. Rather, it is a realignment in terms of colors and abilities. Innistrad is a larger Planar Chaos, a reconfiguration of spells and creatures across the color pie, with modestly tweaked casting costs and effects. Old favorites have been printed in new colors (such as Null Rod, Coffin Purge, Krosan Reclamation, Faceless Butcher). Old enchantments have become artifacts (Spectral Cloak, All Hallow’s Eve, etc), as well as more recent ones (Leyline of Sanctity). And old artifacts/creatures have become enchantments (Millstone, Null Rod, Meddling Mage). A perusal of this set should stir memories, perhaps dim or even subconscious, but the perceptive mind will see in Innistrad much that is already found in Magic as a whole.

This is not a criticism. As I said, originality is overrated. The building blocks of Magic are simply designed cards creatively and synergistically utilized as tactical and strategic support options. The emergent properties of Magic are not to be found within individual cards, but from the interactions of cards within decks and across tables. Nevermore, Witchbane Orb, and Stony Silence will each see play in Eternal formats precisely because they offer important effects in elegant simplicity. This is true even of the marquee card in this set: Snapcaster Mage, which, as one of the more complex cards in the set, is nonetheless an elegant tactic that can be simply administered.

Innistrad may not offer as much for Vintage play as Scars of Mirrodin, but what it does offer is broader possibilities. This is the upside of simplicity. Simplicity does not always mean simple. The more basic the building block, the more applications it may have. Bricks will never go out of fashion. Innistrad offers them in spades.

Read my set review here: http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2243

« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 03:31:13 pm by Smmenen » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2011, 04:20:59 pm »

Very nice review of the set. Looking forward to see how Snapcaster will be implemented into the format, and whether or not it will live up to all the hype it has been receiving from so many.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2011, 09:10:53 pm »

FYI: if people were interested, I think EC dropped the price of this article.   

With the complete Vintage checklist included for collectors and players, it's basically insane value.   Just an FYI
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« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2011, 07:41:51 am »

If there was an option besides PayPal, I'd be all over it. But I dont trust PayPal since they frauded me out of $2000 or so back in 2003-04.
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Meddling Mike
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« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2011, 12:25:18 am »

Some cards I thought should be on the checklist that were not included:
Expedition Map
Bribery
Ghost Quarter
Phyrexian Tower
Hex Parasite
Buried Ruin
Surgical Extraction
Noxious Revival

Rebuttal?
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« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2011, 03:29:07 pm »

Some cards I thought should be on the checklist that were not included:
Expedition Map
Bribery
Ghost Quarter
Phyrexian Tower
Hex Parasite
Buried Ruin
Surgical Extraction
Noxious Revival

Rebuttal?

No rebuttal.    In fact, it is precisely these kinds of comments that I appreciate and hope to get more feedback on as I continue to update the Complete list of Vintage Playables. 

For each of the cards in my list, I cross-reference them with Morphling.de statistics on frequency of appearance in Vintage top 8s.   

Expedition Map -- there are only 7 decks from top 8s in 2011 in which this card has appeared, and all in the last two months.  I will track this cards play and likely include it in the next checklist.

Bribery - This has appeared in 5 decks in 2011, and all in Manilla.   That's pretty thin evidence, but I'll consider it.

Ghost Quarter - A serious omission.  I will include this in the next list. 

Phyrexian Tower -- Three appearances in the last year?  Very borderline....But it did appear in the Vintage Champs Top 8.  I will include it in the next checklist.

Hex Parasite -- This has just one Top 8 appearance in the entire Morphling.de database.   

Buried Ruin - Has only appeared in 2 top 8s.   I'd like to see more evidence before including it. 

Surgical Extraction -- I intended to include this, as I said at the beginning of the article I would include all the cards that I had said seen play from New Phyrexia.  This is more of an error than an omission.   

Noxious Revival -- Whoops.  Error and omission.
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« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2011, 06:27:03 pm »

Surgical Extraction is on the list, my apologies for the oversight.

Is top 8 appearances on morpling.de the main criteria for determining what gets on/stays on the list? If so the following should be cut.

Cabal Pit - One appearance in Manila this year.
Crystal Vein - Two appearances this year.
High Market - No appearances in 2011, on a sidenote, seems odd to include this card but not at least one copy of Phyrexian Tower.
Snow Covered Plains - One appearance in 2011
Snow Covered Forest - One appearance in 2011
Altar of Dementia - One appearance in 2011
Chromatic Sphere - Two appearances in 2011
Chromatic Star - No appearances in 2011
Contagion Clasp - No appearances in 2011
Culling Scales - Two appearances in 2011
Frogmite - Two appearances in 2011
Goblin Charbelcher- Four appearances in 2011
Orb of Dreams - Two appearances in 2011
Possessed Portal - No appearances in 2011
Pyrite Spellbomb - One appearance in 2011
Sylvok Replica - No appearances in 2011
Cephalid Sage - One appearance in 2011 (Isn't this strictly worse than Sphinx of Lost Truths?)
Glen Elendra Archmage - Two appearances in 2011
In the Eye of Chaos - Two appearances in 2011
Master of Etherium - One appearance in 2011
Meloku, the Clouded Mirror - Two appearances in 2011
Old Man of the Sea - One appearance in 2011
See Beyond - Two appearances in 2011
Waterfront Bouncer - One appearance in 2011
Faerie Macabre - Two appearances in 2011
Sadistic Hypnotist - One appearance in 2011
Warren Weirding - Two appearances in 2011
Desperate Ritual - Two appearances in 2011
Flametongue Kavu - One appearance in 2011
Rolling Earthquake - No appearances in 2011 or 2010
Tin Street Hooligan - One appearance in 2011
Emerald Charm -  No appearances in 2011
Fyndhorn Elves - No appearances in 2011
Glimpse of Nature - No appearances in 2011
Hidden Guerillas - No appearances in 2011
Heritage Druid - No appearances in 2011
Llanowar Elves - No appearances in 2011
Nettle Sentinel - No appearances in 2011
Regal Force - No appearances in 2011
Seeds of Innocence - No appearances in 2011
Summoner's Pact - No appearances in 2011
Uktabi Orangutan - One appearance in 2011, No appearances in 2010 or 2009.
Viridian Shaman - No appearances in 2011
Wirewood Symbiote - No appearances in 2011
Abolish - One appearance in 2011
Akroma, Angel of Wrath - No appearances in 2011
Kami of Ancient Law - No appearances in 2011
Honor the Fallen - One appearance in 2011
Rule of Law - Three appearances in 2011
Samurai of the Pale Curtain - One appearance in 2011
Tariff - Two appearances in 2011
Empyrial Archangel - No appearances in 2011
Hull Breach - Three appearances in 2011
Sharuum the Hegemon - No appearances in 2011
Tidehollow Sculler - No appearances in 2011


« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 12:14:05 am by Meddling Mage » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2011, 12:07:01 pm »

Surgical Extraction is on the list, my apologies for the oversight.

Is top 8 appearances on morpling.de the main criteria for determining what gets on/stays on the list? If so the following should be cut.

Yes, I would say the main, but not exclusive criteria. 

If a card has seen a bunch of historical play, but continues to see marginal play, then I sort of create a rebuttal presumption for its inclusion, and it has to pretty much disappear for me to cut it.

But, on the other hand, if a card is not in the list, it needs to have strong evidence that it is in fact a Vintage playable.

You asked about Buried Ruin, but I already talked about this card in the set review:

Quote
None of the M12 cards have yet seen enough play to warrant inclusion, such as Buried Ruin.

Quote

Cabal Pit - One appearance in Manila this year.
ETC


As you can see, I cut 15 cards from the list, and you would have me cut a bunch more.  I don't disagree with most of those.  I appreciate your feedback, and I will likely remove most of the cards you mentioned from the next complete checklist. 
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« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2011, 01:00:25 pm »

I think Steve's list has more historical flavor to it in alot of ways.  I havn't bought them since he went premium, but I organized my Vintage Playable binder according to his list as of a year ago.  I drop cards out of it only when a new superior tech is released.  For example, Ophidan dropped out and I put Scroll Theif in its place; same cost, simply better.  Even this is almost never better than Selkie, but you never know - if you need a Merfolk CA engine in a deck that cannot reliably get UU, then, well, there ya go.  

Basically, once a card passes muster as Vintage playable, I think it stays on the list untill it is clearly and umambiguosly outclassed.  So, going through your list:

Cabal Pit - There's no other land that can sac to give a creature -2/-2 and taps for black.  It's a niche card and still Vintage playable.
Crystal Vein - Hard to see how this is not strictly inferior to Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors.  I use it because I don't have Cities.  I'd drop this off the list.
High Market - Inferior to Phyrexian Tower.  In what case is saccing for 1 life better than saccing for BB?  Take if off.
Snow-Covered Stuff - These lands help make gifts piles and are immune to Wasteland; that's niche enough to keep them.
Chromatic Sphere / Star - An egg-based combo deck needs a critical number of eggs to go off.  There just arn't that many eggs around, so these should stay.
Contagin Clasp - Artifact removal and proliferate at a reasonable cost.  Nothing really is competing with this effect.  Keep it.
Culling Scales - Vintage-level effect that has (as far as I know) never actually seen serious play.  Too slow to make a difference against moxen.  Too easy to play around for everyone else.  I don't know why this is still on the list.
Frogmite - A necessary component of affinity, so it should stay.
Charbelcher - Necessary for belcher combo, should stay.
Orb of Dreams - Seems totally outclassed by Mindcensor, Arbiter, and more recently, Stranglehold.  Drop it.
Possessed Portal - No other card offers this effect, shutting off all card draw.  Proabably still has a niche use.
Pyrite Spellbomb - Necessary for Bomberman kills; keep it.
Sylvok Replica - Shops tech against Oath or the mirror.  I dont know of other artifact creatures at this cost that cast disenchant, so it should stay.
Cephalid Sage - Not strictly inferior to Sphinx of Lost Truths, as it costs less, but no one should ever play either card with the intention to hard cast it, so... should leave in favor of Sphinx.
Glen Elendra Archmage - Powerful effect in a fairy stompy or fish; nothing else counters two spells for UU and beats in the air.  Keep it.
In the Eye of Chaos - Unique effect, cheaper than Nether Void.  Keep it.
Master of Etherium - Again, a key component of modern Affinity.  Keep it.
Meloku, the Clouded Mirror - A big dumb blue finisher.  Competes with the likes of Morphing.  However, it wins in a unique way, by bouncing lands and spamming tokens.  Unique enough to stay.
Old Man of the Sea - I have a hard time seeing how this isn't strictly inferior to Preacher (because it's in a harder-to-serve color) or Sower of Temptation.  Probably past his prime.
See Beyond - Better than Library of Lat-Nam for what it does, and no other card does this better yet.  Keep it.
Waterfront Bouncer - No better repeatable bounce being printed, still the best at his job.  Keep it.
Faerie Macabre - Arguably not powerful enough for Vintage, true, but it does have a unique combination of Circling Vulture's ability to dump itself in the yard whenever you want and a graveyard hosing effect.  Probably could leave the list, though, since this combination of abilities just isn't worth anything right now.
Sadistic Hypnotist - Unique ability to trade creatures for discard, goes nuts with bridge from below; keep it.
Warren Weirding - Unique variation of Diabolic Edict that can be used to make a new Goblin in a pinch, can be recurred with Goblin recovery spells; keep it.
Desperate Ritual - Necessary part of Charbelcher or other all-in red combos; keep it.
Flametongue Kavu - I feel this is just like Faerie Macabre; the best at the unique combination of what it does - burn and be a 4/2 - but perhaps not Vintage playable at the moment.  Four mana gets you Sower, which is arguably a better effect.  Your dedicated removal kinda has to be free or cheap or really kick ass... Kavu doesn't really do either.  Can probably leave for now.
Rolling Earthquake - Again, unique, but is it unique in a way that matters?  Pyroclasm or Fire Spout is probably more than enough to deal with flying creatures in Vintage.  Probably should stay on the list, though, since it really is the best at sweeping creatures in red.  Even if no one owns any.
Tin Street Hooligan - He's in the company of a TON of artifact hosers, but he's cheaper than Maniac Vandal, faster than Goblin Vandal or Welder, and a different color than Leonin Relic-Warder.  He competes with Ancient Grude, perhaps, but sometimes you need more threat density. I still think he's unique enough to stay.
Emerald Charm -  Seems totally outclassed by Nature's Claim.  Should drop it.
Fyndhorn Elves, Llanowar elves, Heritage Druid, Glimpse of Nature, Nettle Sentinel, Regal Force, Summoner's Pact, Viridian Shaman, Wirewood Symbiote - Elf Combo still exists, and these are all parts of the engine.  Stay.
Hidden Guerillas - There's nothing else that punishes Lodestone with another 5/3 like this.  Not currently used, but it still seems interesting tech for a beatdown deck facing Shops.
Seeds of Innocence - This is the cheapest 'blow up all artifacts' effect.  Connelly Woods played this in his Noble Fish deck at Black Gold's tourny last year.  Stays.
Uktabi Orangutan - Outclassed by Viridian Shaman, which has a better creature type.  Should drop off.
Abolish - No other card gives white weenie a free way to cast disenchant.  Should stay.
Akroma, Angel of Wrath - Together with Hellkite, the fastest Oath kill that doesn't involve Breath of Flames or Collossus.  But, who would do this when even the slower kills - Terastadon or Emrakul for example - cause so much board havoc anyway?  Probably time for this lady to drop off the list.
Kami of Ancient Law - How is this better than Wispmere?  Should go.
Honor the Fallen - Expensive Dredge Hate that is outclassed by just about every other dredge hate.  Should go.
Rule of Law - There are probably corner cases where this is better than Ethersworn Canonist, but you have to stretch to find them.  Drop it off the list.
Samurai of the Pale Curtain - Weak dredge hate, but it does relevantly stop bridge from below and it fits in White Weenie.  Keep it.
Tariff - Better than Topple, the only other option if white wants an out to Tinkerbots.  Keep it.
Empyrial Archangel - An anti-aggro oath choice that is probably inferior to Blazing Archon and Stormtide Levithan.  Dump it.
Hull Breach - A possible two-for-one on two different types of cards.  No home right now, but that could change if a RG deck emerges that really wants to kill either Null Rod or Stony Silence. Niche card to keep.
Sharuum the Hegemon - Her very existence enables an alternative Dredge kill; she should stay.
Tidehollow Sculler - Better than the mono-black version of this effect, and an artifact; best of his class.  Should stay.
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« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2011, 02:43:38 pm »

I see what you mean Steve, it just occasionally gives the appearance of being inconsistent from a criteria standpoint. I was thinking more of a common sense approach might be good rather than nostalgic value, where although a card might not be seeing much play at the moment, it fills a niche effectively. I think of Hex Parasite and Witchbane Orb as being such cards. At the moment hex parasite is one of the few effective answers to a planeswalker for artifacts and his ability is uncommon enough and with broad enough applications that I felt it warranted inclusion. Although you have yet to decide on the orb it already fills a unique function and perhaps if they print some powerful curses in the future it could have some worthwhile added value.

High Market - Inferior to Phyrexian Tower.  In what case is saccing for 1 life better than saccing for BB?  Take if off.
I think it's worth noting that Tower is a legendary land, I think it's always correct for the first slot, but High Market might deserve consideration for additional slots.

With most of the other stuff you mentioned, I think the question is when it's ok to take these decks off life support. There's a number of components for decks that people almost never play anymore and have no other valid uses beyond that. We don't keep Helm of Awakening/Future Sight on the list even though those cards have unique functions and were once part of a competitive deck/combo. The same could be said of Food Chain, Pentavus, etc. but I think one of the hardest things about maintaining the checklist is deciding if a deck is just in a prolonged down cycle or if it really is gone for good. Maybe the bad matchups for those archetypes got beefed up or has the rest of the format gotten more powerful and left this archetype behind?

On another note, one more exclusion I forgot: Voidmage Prodigy, 4 Top 8 appearances this year.
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« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2011, 04:23:55 pm »

I see what you mean Steve, it just occasionally gives the appearance of being inconsistent from a criteria standpoint. I was thinking more of a common sense approach might be good rather than nostalgic value, where although a card might not be seeing much play at the moment, it fills a niche effectively. .

When I first created the "Vintage Checklist" I was alot more fuzzy in my criteria for inclusion, and Matt Elias took me to task for it.   I basically included anything that saw more than a few Top 8s in the last year or so, and then included a bunch of cards that I believed were playable or potentially playable, and included them.

My first checklist was here: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/18103_So_Many_Insane_Plays_The_Complete_Vintage_Checklist.html

Alot of the issues about how to categorize and select cards were set out there.  I said:

"First of all, making such a list invites endless debates. Someone will inevitably point out some omission that should have been included. Someone else will point to cards that, in their view, aren’t Vintage playable, and shouldn’t be included. For example, how do you handle a card like Academy Rector or Diminishing Returns, which are playable, but rarely see play? Or what about cards that are in tier 2 decks at best, but sometimes win tournaments in certain environments, like Goblins? Or what about cards that are played, albeit rarely, in major archetypes, like In the Eye of Chaos? Similarly, what about cards that are playable, but aren’t seeing play because of the particular composition and contours of the metagame, like In the Eye of Chaos, but are definitely good enough to see play, and are likely to see play in the future? Or how do you deal with cards that used to see a lot of play, but are unlikely to see play in the future because of changes in the banned or restricted list or the metagame, like Triskelavus, who were Slaver targets? Or cards that saw a momentary burst of play, like Strategic Planning, but then quickly faded, with no clear use in the near future?

Then someone will point out that there are different degrees of playability. Jester’s Cap, while played in Vintage, is not played as much nor is as central to the format s Time Vault. Should cards like that be lumped into the same category? But, if I were to draw a line between those cards, on what basis? Any line that I would draw would be open to the same criticisms.

These, and more, are all real problems to drafting a complete Vintage checklist. After much consideration, I ultimately settled on a two-category system that I have keyed below: Commonly Played/Staples versus Niche/Less Commonly Played. I have tried to use recent Vintage Top 8 data, giving particular weight to the last 6-12 months, in determining whether a card is playable, using the extensive Morphling.de Vintage tournament database. But that has not been my only source. As I said, I’m also sure that I’ve missed something. Feel free tell me what I’ve missed in the forums. But recognize that there is a good chance that I’ve intentionally omitted the card. I haven’t simply selected cards that have made Top 8s in the last 6 months or year, but that has been a touchstone for whether a card is included or not.

However, just because a card hasn’t seen play in the last couple of months, that doesn’t mean it won’t in the future. For example, cards like In the Eye of Chaos may not see much play at the moment, but they are certainly positioned to see future play, and are Vintage playable, depending on the shifting composition of the format. I’ve tried to be inclusive rather than exclusive. I’ve included cards in here that may not be played at the moment, but I believe are playable, and would be deck building material in future metagames. That necessarily involves a judgment call.

Also, there may be cards not on this list, already in print, which may emerge in the future. While owning all of these cards will give you 98% of anything you’ll need right now to build whatever you want in Vintage, there will still be cards that will become playable for one reason or another, that are not on this list."


I have since shifted my position on alot of those issues.   To make it as objective as possible, I've pretty much taken alot of the judgment out of the issue, and relied more and more on whether a card has appeared in the last year in a Vintage Top 8.

Since I may not have been clear enough, let me now make it crystal clear:

1) If a card has appeared in more than a few top 8s in the last 12 months, I will include it on the List. 

I do give some weight to the kind of top 8.  So, if it was a 12 player tournament in Manilla, it will get less credit than if it was the Vintage Championship, Bazaar of Moxen, or Waterbury Top 8.  A card that only appears in one of those tournament Top 8s may actually make the list with just one appearance. 

2) If a card on the list hasn't appeared in more than 2 or so Vintage Top 8s in the last 12 months, it will probably get cut.

I try to make the burden on cutting slightly greater than the burden on entering because I'd rather err on the side of inclusivity,  I'd rather include a more marginal card that is actually playable -- however remotely -- than exclude a card that is remotely playable.

Why?  While I created this checklist for many purposes, I think the best purpose of the checklist is as a pool of playables for Vintage deck designers.   Unfortunately, the more rigorous I am in terms of cutting cards, the less useful it is for that purpose.

For example, I included Teferi's Realm in the original list in 2009 largely because I viewed the card as playable should Doomsday every become good again. 

I think there is a difference between whether something is playable and whether something is likely to see play.  There are cards that are Vintage playable, in the sense that they are efficient and effective enough compared to other options, that they could be played in Vintage games and be used to influence game outcomes.   However, many of these cards may never see play.  Teferi's Realm is such a card, but there are others.   I mentioned In the Eye of Chaos.  Seasinger is perhaps another.  Remember when Hiromichi Itou used Magus of the Unseen? 

Unfortunately, because of the difficulty of sorting the line between playable and theoretically playable, I've moved to rely more and more on actual tournament results.   That makes this list less useful for deck designers -- who may need to identify cards that actually don't see any play at the moment -- to find the right synergy or answer.   

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I think of Hex Parasite and Witchbane Orb as being such cards. At the moment hex parasite is one of the few effective answers to a planeswalker for artifacts and his ability is uncommon enough and with broad enough applications that I felt it warranted inclusion.

I'm pretty explicit that I don't include cards in the checklist from the set I just reviewed.  I include them in the next checklist update.

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I think one of the hardest things about maintaining the checklist is deciding if a deck is just in a prolonged down cycle or if it really is gone for good

Fortunately, I don't think I have to make that judgment.   Cards or the decks that use them don't have to be 'gone for good' for me to omit them, since if a card doesn't see play for long enough, it will get cut.   Conversely, no card is really ever truly dead, as we never know what B&R list changes or new printings might create space for renewed play.  Mystic Remora is a good example (or Meditate), etc. 

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Tin Street Hooligan

This card appeared in John Jones' recent RG Beats deck that won the recent NE Vintage tournament. 


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Meddling Mike
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« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2011, 06:49:07 pm »

Quote
I think of Hex Parasite and Witchbane Orb as being such cards. At the moment hex parasite is one of the few effective answers to a planeswalker for artifacts and his ability is uncommon enough and with broad enough applications that I felt it warranted inclusion.

I'm pretty explicit that I don't include cards in the checklist from the set I just reviewed.  I include them in the next checklist update.
I'm aware, it was just the easiest example in my mind of a card that's not overly impressive right now that could be powered up by future printings. If I was giving you a hard time about cards from Innistrad not being on the list I might have started with Snapcaster Mage. Wink
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« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2012, 08:29:55 pm »

I'm in the processes of revising the Vintage Checklist, and your feedback has been enormously helpful.   I've tried to balance the facts against MaximumDawg's comments. 

Any last minute thoughts are welcome before I publish my set review & Updated Checklist.   
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