Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

[Stormanimagus]

If you don't run stony silence your straight up lose to turn 1 metalworker or Kuldotha Forgemaster.  Not to mention TV/Key.  and Vial gets nailed by MM.

Perhaps a Stony Silence list could look something like this:


White Weenie

Land (18):
9 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (9):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword Of Fire And Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantments (4):
4 Stony Silence

Creatures (24):
4 Student Of Warfare
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Aven Mindcensor

Instants (5):
3 Mental Misstep
2 Swords to Plowshares

SB
4 Leyline Of Sanctity
4 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Ravenous Trap
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Aven Mindcensor

Misstep keeps you having some good turn 1 plays and the moxen give you a fighting chance vs. shops.

[Ten-Ten]

she seems cool. 
Personaly though, I see her going in a deck starting like so:

4 Thalia
3 Ethersworn canonist
3 Grand abolisher
4 Tidehollow sculler
4 leonin arbiter
4 qasali pridemage
4 Noble hierarch
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 phyrexian revoker
1 Fiend hunter
2 Gideon's lawkeeper
1 leonin relic warder
2 porcelain legionnaire
2 Mesmeric fiend
2 Dark confidant
1 black lotus

4 wasteland
2 Ghost quarter
1 stripmine
6 fetchland
3 savannah
1 Scrubland
1 swamp
1 plains
.
.
.
or whatever. Haven't worked out the kinks,  Either way I can't wait. 

You're running Noble just for 2 Gaddock Teeg and the pridemage and then randomly 2 Confidant and 2 Mesmeric Fiend? I'm sorry, but your list seems incredibly half-baked and just plain awful. Think before you post please. I've actually tested my list and found it to be extremely effective vs. Shops and other more aggroish blue decks (hint hint, Delver.dec). Your deck just seems like some card you threw together that are either bad or lack synergy of any kind. Gideon's Lawkeeper is not a particularly good card. I mean, seriously, why run green at all if you are not going to run Goyfs? You can get the Seal of Cleansing on legs if you run 4 Relic-Warder instead of just 1 and then you've basically replaced Pridemage just fine. I really think my deck will do everything your deck is trying to do and more and that your deck will just suffer from random horrible draws and mana color screw far too often to be a contender. Like can you explain half the cards in your deck. WTF is Grand Abolisher doing in there at all? He seems just quite bad to me. sure he protects your guys, but he's really slow to do that. He doesn't stop your opponent from removing your dudes on his own turn either. He just seems like a whole lot of poop to me and I have no idea why you're running him. Could you offer a little explanation on some of your choices for this deck instead of just pooping it out with none? I realize that is what I sort of did, but I'll follow with some testing results and hard explanations shortly. for now I'll tell you that my deck works because it has 8 solid turn 1 plays and a bunch of very good turn 2 plays that lead to soft/hard locks a large % of the time (specifically Arbiter + Ghost Quarter or Crusader + Mystic for the Aggro approach).

-Storm

yeah, it is a very rough idea at best. I just can't stand seeing the same attempt at mono-white prison decks over and over again.
I just want to try and have as many creatures as possible that will DO something while Thalia is on field rather than get spells stuck on hand. The two mesmeric fiend are pretty much Tidehollow sculler #5-6 and Grand abolisher protects my guys from being countered, geez. I don't care if you remove them when I'm packing more creatures than you. every turn I either strip a land, a card from your hand or revoke a permanent with little resistance on your part. Noble is there with pridemage for the exalt. The two Gideon's lawkeeper are there for an early tinker, which can happen btw, or stall a Tarmo or Delver.
 Dark confidant doesn't have to come out early, he is simply there to keep me from running outta gas since I am not looking for a quick win. If anything I should find a way to fit Thorn of amethyst somewhere in the 60.
The two porcelain legionnaire should in fact be Tarmogyf. I forgot to change it.
Sure, I have not tested in a tournament enviroment but I am not new to the game either and like I said, it is an idea I am working on.
I was aiming more of a tempo deck with all creatures. That is why I omitted stony silence/null rod, swords to plowshares, aether vial, or any counter back-up and instead included phyrexian revoker, fiend hunter/gideon's lawkeeper, Dark confidant, tidehollow sculler/mesmeric fiend and grand abolisher.

I will not further discuss this here but will exchange ideas or share your criticism through PM if you would like.

[vaughnbros]

If you don't run stony silence your straight up lose to turn 1 metalworker or Kuldotha Forgemaster.  Not to mention TV/Key.  and Vial gets nailed by MM.

not true revoker, relic warder, abolish are all solid answers to those cards

[Guli]

I can agree that Stony Silence is not an auto include. But in a white weenie and with the effect of Thalia I don't know if it is wise to dismiss a null rod effect.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm questioning the exclusion of Jotun Grunt.  Ichy is the major unaddressed archetype and you're running a 3 mana 4/2 over a 2 mana 4/4 with utility against that archetype.

[mikekilljoy]

If you don't run stony silence your straight up lose to turn 1 metalworker or Kuldotha Forgemaster.  Not to mention TV/Key.  and Vial gets nailed by MM.

Perhaps a Stony Silence list could look something like this:


White Weenie

Land (18):
9 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (9):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword Of Fire And Ice
1 Batterskull

Enchantments (4):
4 Stony Silence

Creatures (24):
4 Student Of Warfare
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Aven Mindcensor

Instants (5):
3 Mental Misstep
2 Swords to Plowshares

SB
4 Leyline Of Sanctity
4 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Ravenous Trap
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Aven Mindcensor

Misstep keeps you having some good turn 1 plays and the moxen give you a fighting chance vs. shops.

If you play Stony Silence, wouldn't Enlightened Tutor be an auto include to get it or any other equipment you have? Not that Legacy should have any baring o Vintage, but I got 100% rolled by that playing Affiity vs Tutor for Silence.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I'm questioning the exclusion of Jotun Grunt.  Ichy is the major unaddressed archetype and you're running a 3 mana 4/2 over a 2 mana 4/4 with utility against that archetype.

Jotun Grunt is not very good against Dredge. It is generally too slow from a hate perspective or too easy to play around. Jotun Grunt is very good against opposing creature decks, especially those with Lodestone Golems and Tarmogoyves. I don't know that I would consider it a maindeck card in any significant quantity, and I definitely wouldn't lean on it as Dredge hate without six other "good" cards against Dredge (many of which are terrible alongside Jotun Grunt because they remove your opponent's graveyard or prevent him from having one).

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm questioning the exclusion of Jotun Grunt.  Ichy is the major unaddressed archetype and you're running a 3 mana 4/2 over a 2 mana 4/4 with utility against that archetype.

Jotun Grunt is not very good against Dredge. It is generally too slow from a hate perspective or too easy to play around. Jotun Grunt is very good against opposing creature decks, especially those with Lodestone Golems and Tarmogoyves. I don't know that I would consider it a maindeck card in any significant quantity, and I definitely wouldn't lean on it as Dredge hate without six other "good" cards against Dredge (many of which are terrible alongside Jotun Grunt because they remove your opponent's graveyard or prevent him from having one).

I'm only suggesting that it's better than Mirran Crusader, not that it deserves a slot.

[ed0]

I'm only suggesting that it's better than Mirran Crusader, not that it deserves a slot.

i'm quite certain the Mirran Crusader is included for it's interaction with Jitte and SoFaI.
with SoFaI Crusader reads 12/4, draw two cards on combat damage, protection from black, blue, green and red.

i don't think that kind of reliance on equipments belongs anywhere in a null rod/stony silence build though.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm only suggesting that it's better than Mirran Crusader, not that it deserves a slot.

i'm quite certain the Mirran Crusader is included for it's interaction with Jitte and SoFaI.
with SoFaI Crusader reads 12/4, draw two cards on combat damage, protection from black, blue, green and red.

i don't think that kind of reliance on equipments belongs anywhere in a null rod/stony silence build though.

That smells win-more.   He's found a relevant equipment, cast it, and equipped it...and the opponent still hasn't won around him.

[boggyb]

Eh, all he needs is Mirran and Stoneforge, and he can get it out and equip and attack next turn. Seems like a pretty doable ~5 turn gameplan to me.

[Guli]

I don't think that list can be taken seriously at this time. Storm should try to test it or find people who are willing to test it. Then take the results and form some conclusions and post them here. Then we can get a thread started on white weenie.

Me on the other hand, I will not limit myself to 1 color. Thalia is the card my design approach has been waiting for a long time. High creature count, multiple colours and multiple effects. There is a huge amount of card choices out there and I think Thalia is a card that likes Ancient Ziggurat. I think it is still possible to dedicate 8 slots to Mental Misstep and Force of Will. I am not sure I want to add    just for Gaddock Teeg. Unless there are other suggestions in the green card pool? Noble and ESG would interest me though, to get some mana and colour fixing going but that would be the mana base department and not the 'bear with effect' department. Mental and Force are free and possible to play under Thalia. Other free 'spells' could also make the deck I am trying to design. For example Summoning Trap is also a very interesting and powerful card in the light of Thalia and Ancient Ziggurat. It would act as a counter spell or a fail-safe device. On top of that it is a great tempo card. You don't lose your creature drop. It also plays around Chalice of the Void. This means that trap is good against blue, workshop and fish. These decks all try to counter your threats. Dredge does not, but the SB can be used for Surgical and Ravenous Trap. (note that these are again free and follow the same logic as mental/force/trap) Summoning Trap would be an interesting SB choice or depending on the meta even main deck.

I would probably play some form of card advantage like BoB (must be careful with Summoning Trap in mind) I could also add a couple of Edric on top of that. And if I would forgo pure card advantage, I would make sure my bears make up for it by making the cards in my opponents hand dead.

These ware my initial thought streams on Thalia. Far from fetching a deck. Besides, the set might offer another nice weenie-effect. Let's wait a bit longer, patience.

[nineisnoone]

You are referring to Honor the Pure I believe. If Honor the Pure made it into the deck it would probably be for Stoneforge + Equipment and would that really be better than Equipment + Stoneforge? I feel that equipment forces the opponent to consider artifact hate and their artifact hate will just be awful against you as most of your deck ignores it.

-Storm

Yes but you should run Stony Silence main deck

I don't think Stony Silence is the auto-include you think it is. I am very torn on this issue, but I am not sure Silence belongs anywhere in the deck any more as I really think its role will most often be aggro and Silence is not an aggro card. I also think you now lose to Shops if you don't run Vial over Silence. I'll have to think about this further, but I think the verdict is still in question regarding Stony.

-Storm

Do Workshop decks no longer run Rod anymore (which would ruin your Vial play)? And aren't the ones that don't the combo version that you would want to run Stony/Null for?

I don't really see a reason why you wouldn't run Stony, unless you mean run Null Rod instead where there are reasons for that (but I don't think that's what you mean).

[Stormanimagus]

You are referring to Honor the Pure I believe. If Honor the Pure made it into the deck it would probably be for Stoneforge + Equipment and would that really be better than Equipment + Stoneforge? I feel that equipment forces the opponent to consider artifact hate and their artifact hate will just be awful against you as most of your deck ignores it.

-Storm

Yes but you should run Stony Silence main deck

I don't think Stony Silence is the auto-include you think it is. I am very torn on this issue, but I am not sure Silence belongs anywhere in the deck any more as I really think its role will most often be aggro and Silence is not an aggro card. I also think you now lose to Shops if you don't run Vial over Silence. I'll have to think about this further, but I think the verdict is still in question regarding Stony.

-Storm

Do Workshop decks no longer run Rod anymore (which would ruin your Vial play)? And aren't the ones that don't the combo version that you would want to run Stony/Null for?

I don't really see a reason why you wouldn't run Stony, unless you mean run Null Rod instead where there are reasons for that (but I don't think that's what you mean).

Umm. . . do you not know what espresso stax is? or Cat Stax? Both don't run Null Rod and aren't really hurt by opposing rods/silences. Metalworker variants are hurt by stony but that's about it. Vial is usually infinitely better at winning the shop match for you than Stony.

-Storm

[nineisnoone]

You are referring to Honor the Pure I believe. If Honor the Pure made it into the deck it would probably be for Stoneforge + Equipment and would that really be better than Equipment + Stoneforge? I feel that equipment forces the opponent to consider artifact hate and their artifact hate will just be awful against you as most of your deck ignores it.

-Storm

Yes but you should run Stony Silence main deck

I don't think Stony Silence is the auto-include you think it is. I am very torn on this issue, but I am not sure Silence belongs anywhere in the deck any more as I really think its role will most often be aggro and Silence is not an aggro card. I also think you now lose to Shops if you don't run Vial over Silence. I'll have to think about this further, but I think the verdict is still in question regarding Stony.

-Storm

Do Workshop decks no longer run Rod anymore (which would ruin your Vial play)? And aren't the ones that don't the combo version that you would want to run Stony/Null for?

I don't really see a reason why you wouldn't run Stony, unless you mean run Null Rod instead where there are reasons for that (but I don't think that's what you mean).

Umm. . . do you not know what espresso stax is? or Cat Stax? Both don't run Null Rod and aren't really hurt by opposing rods/silences. Metalworker variants are hurt by stony but that's about it. Vial is usually infinitely better at winning the shop match for you than Stony.

-Storm

They don't run Rod?

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43549.0

and that thread might not be current or what you had in mind, but my point is Shops are either running Rod or running something that's better than Rod (and you should probably run Rod because of that).

off the top of my head, i forget what expresso stax is. just that it was one of the more common non-MUD shop lists.

[Guli]

It is not only Null Rod that would ruin Vial strategies, but also Revoker is used in Shop lists. My solution to this issue of spheres and getting your bears in play was to run Elvish Spirit Guide and Noble Hierarch (and the on colour moxes obviously). But that is not enough, you need to have full compliment of strip and wastelands. AND on top of that some Ghost Quarters. You need to build up a mana advantage against Shop to put them in a tight spot, take some hits from whatever got through the initial turns and then remove or neutralize those threats to stabilize. The goal is always to aim for a mid game advantage.

However, if the Shop player does not deal with an active Vial, things can go downhill very quickly for the Shop player. But an experienced Shop player should be able to deal with Vial before it becomes critical.

And the problem is right when the Shop player does deal with Vial. It hurts too much! Sometimes it causes a complete coma for the Fish player making it a very easy game for the Shop player.

Thalia is stronger than Gaddock because it hits all the sorceries dredge wants to use, it is way more useful against Workshop with both her abilities, it hampers with the storm build up, and indirectly with the win condition Tendrils of Agony, it is a better defender than Gaddock against attackers (aggro). It just hits more cards in Vintage and is in that regard less narrow. It doesn't truly STOP anything though, but that is not an issue because she will not be fighting alone. She is pretty much the update some of us have been waiting for. Still, the temptation is there to run a split of Teeg, Thalia and others.

[nineisnoone]

well, i think Gaddock is still better, but yeah I don't see Vial as being viable (or at least optimal). Let's also not forget about Mental Misstep.

[Guli]

well, i think Gaddock is still better, but yeah I don't see Vial as being viable (or at least optimal). Let's also not forget about Mental Misstep.

Why is Gaddock better? I gave my arguments and all you did is contradict me without any content. So we are suppose to take your word on it?

It hardly matters because you should run BOTH anyway.

[nineisnoone]

well, i think Gaddock is still better, but yeah I don't see Vial as being viable (or at least optimal). Let's also not forget about Mental Misstep.

Why is Gaddock better? I gave my arguments and all you did is contradict me without any content. So we are suppose to take your word on it?

It hardly matters because you should run BOTH anyway.

...

No one runs storm. Shop has plenty of mana (they do run sphere effects afterall). Dredge is a wash either way (though Thalia is better here). And against blue, they are starting to run more and more creatures (so the effect is less relevant), blue isn't all that hindered by a single sphere effect, whereas shutting out Jace/FOW/Gush can be more significant.