Forgemaster MUD + wurmcoil engine

[nataz]

Wurmcoil Engine is my new favorite card, and in my search to find it a home I've settled on Forgemaster MUD. This is something I threw together after looking at Fornio's list (http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1554) and skimming through some euro-MUD lists on morphling (http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1549).

Its funny to watch the Euro MUD lists b/c they are always so different then the US metagame. A few months ago their reports were absolutely full of metalworker-forgemaster combo lists, and now there are a TON of panther stax players doing really well. I have no idea why, but hey, they must be doing something right to consistently top 8 at these monster events.

My list is less locky, more attacky, hence the 2x Wurm and 3x precursor. I'm just testing out metal worker which is taking the space formerly occupied by null rod. I figured if I was going to go aggressive, mind as well go all out.

I think the thorns are a mistake, and almost certainly should be the stronger SOR. Chalice was too good not to include considering I only have 1 1cc play, and 6 2cc plays.

BSC and Titan are the go-to forgemaster plays, but Wurmcoil is a common target as well. I also want to test out Battlesphere and Duplicant in the MD as well. Considering forgemaster can sac itself, and factory counts as an artifact, the three artifact clause hasn't been much of an issue. plus, at 5 mana in a deck with 10 multi-mana lands and metalworker he really is a t2/t3 play.

I'm not super familiar with playing either forgemaster or metalworker and I'm curious to hear what other people think. Mana base, forgemaster targets, more lock components, etc are all up for grabs.

SB has been okay. I don't love the dismembers, but I'm not sure there is anything better for that spot. Gut shot maybe? I'm also curious what a version with Welder would look like. Maybe bazaar and welder....maybe with squee....and crucible....who knows. I've been trying to bring back GWS's TMS forever.

here is the working list I have so far. Like I said, prob sub out thorns for SOR, they are just stronger in general, and you normally have plenty of mana.

Mana:
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

Multi-purpose Mana:
4 Metalworker
2 Mishra's Factory

Doods:
2 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Precursor Golem
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Phyrexian Revoker

Locks:
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Trinisphere

C-C-C-Combo:
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan

SB: 3 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 Ghost Quarter
SB: 2 Duplicant
SB: 4 Dismember
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage

[TheShop]

I was looking at similar lists before cage was printed and thought that the following were possibly relevant forgemaster targets-
1 jester's cap
1 nullstone gargoyle
Last one is possible I guess- possessed portal

I like the idea of cap or gargoyle because you may not have to wait a turn to effectively win...

[nataz]

I tried cap a while ago and found that decks had more then three win conditions on average. Maybe non-demon oath? Still you have to snag 2x creatures, vault or key, and Jace. Everything else plays a bunch of creatures right now.

[TheShop]

While I don't have a functional knowledge of all modern lists, isn't a blue opponent significantly easier to beat when you can vault, BSC, and 1 other generic card(I would likely take trygon or hurkyl's next)

I think you are right though...and also, not many choices past blighsteel and Titan matter anyway

[credmond]

I like these targets as one-ofs or more . . .

Karn - kills moxes and finishes
Witchbane Orb - kills Oath and Hurkyl's (possible one-of on top of 4 x cage)
Steel Hellkite - clears the board of troublesome perms and finishes
Revoker - shuts off Jace or Time Vault
Phyrexian Metamorph - kills legends and copies creatures with shroud
Duplicant - 2 for 1 their creatures

I dont like BSC because you can't reliably cast him if he winds up in your hand and he is overkill. You want your deck to get there even through a null rod. If you can't finish with Titan or Steel Hellkite or Wurmcoil or Karn or Duplicant or Lodestone then you are doing it wrong.

[nataz]

Normally I like Karn, but not in the context of my list. Not enough things to turn into beaters, and I'm already running Revoker.

I'd like to find space for either a dup or a metamorph. I'm thinking metamorph for a lower mana curve. I like orb for the SB, seems solid.

Maybe hellkite. He seems like an answer to a problem I don't really have. I can out creature a creature deck, and I have a decent stax match-up. Only perms I'm really worried about are Oath and Jace, both of which have better answers in the form of cage (post SB), and Revoker.

I like BSC b/c he can end the game in one swing, which I think is important. If Titan had trample, that would be another story. I've mentioned why no Karn already, and dup often times is an 2/x. Wurmcoil brings the beats, sure, but again @6/6 with no trample it can be slower then I'd like. 

[madmanmike25]

Well if you are running 4 Forgemasters and 4 Metalworkers it kinda makes sense to run at least 1 Staff of Domination, right?

The next suggestion is somewhat iffy.  Try 1 Lightning Greaves.  A really cool (though uncommon) play is to cast Metalworker, equip, tap, and cast Forgemaster.  Equip Forgemaster, tap to search for BSC.  Equip BSC, swing, win.  It also gives every creature u cast haste if you dont combo and go the aggro route.  Worth looking into.

[credmond]

The key to the deck is to build it so it doesn't just roll over and die to null rod. Otherwise you might as well just hand over your tourney slip to everyone playing fish or landstill. That's why Raffaele Forino's list is so good. No BSC. No metalworker. No lightning greaves. The deck switches from Forgemaster plan A to plan B with ease.

Also I think its wrong to pursue the deck as a combo deck. You are throwing 3 cards into 1 card. If that card gets stopped you have just hosed yourself. Its better pursued as a tempo control deck where you apply steady pressure and hold back on activating Kudoltha and wait and react to your opponent and seal off the ways he has to escape and wait until he exposes himself and then bring in your bomb that is also an answer. Trying to race and go all in will lead to a lower overall success rate.

[nataz]

Well if you are running 4 Forgemasters and 4 Metalworkers it kinda makes sense to run at least 1 Staff of Domination, right?

Seems solid as a 1-of in place of BSC. Requires 3 artifacts in hand to go infiny right? I was thinking of cramming in the helm/void combo or the painter combo, but this seems much cleaner. I like the option of tutoring up an quick win when you need to close the game out right away. I think having that strategic depth is worth the sacrifice of BSC/Staff when you are running 4x tinkers.

The key to the deck is to build it so it doesn't just roll over and die to null rod. Otherwise you might as well just hand over your tourney slip to everyone playing fish or landstill. That's why Raffaele Forino's list is so good. No BSC. No metalworker. No lightning greaves. The deck switches from Forgemaster plan A to plan B with ease.

I actually think my list is significantly better against null rod. Forino's list has very few win conditions and seems to rely more heavily on forgemaster to tutor up a real threat. He's basically running 3 more sphere effects, metamorph, and 1 more revoker vs. my wurmcoils, precursors, and metalworkers. I actually run the same amount of lands, but produce more mana b/c i have two city of traitors vs. his two ports.

I think forino's plan B is obviously prison, but I have an issue with that considering how few threats he is running. I could be wrong, but against something like fish where they can trade 1-1 with everything minus the hellkite and the titan the deck seems threat light. It would be different if he backed it up with smokestax, but he doesn't.

I think I'd rather run a plan B that mimics GW aggro. Strong beaters with some added utility. But then again, I could be wrong.

Another thought: is WS a strong enough concept that you can leave the entire prison concept behind? Is it possible to build a workshop deck devoid of sphere effects and focus entirely on its superior mana production -> accelerated threats?

[Guli]

Dismissing the prison strategy would only be possible if you have a strong control plan and fast combo clock. You need to think if you can establish control without counters. I do it all the time with my hate bears but they also swing so... witchbane Orb might be interesting. Still, I think blue decks will have a serious edge when it comes to control. Will you be able to hate out blue without spheres?

Going full out combo might be too 'all in'.

Another question, how to deal with Stony Silence or Null Rod?

[Bill Copes]

Another question, how to deal with Stony Silence or Null Rod?

It's shittily costed, but Spine of Ish Sah has worked for me.  It's also got nice synergy with Metalworker and Forgemaster once the enemy enchantment has been removed.

[madmanmike25]

I actually think my list is significantly better against null rod.

I agree with that.  You have a lot of creatures to still win through a Null Rod.  Lodestone was a 5/3 last time I checked and a 3/5 Forgemaster isn't exactly tiny either in addition to the creatures you already mentioned.

Credmond, I think that testing will tell if adding singletons such as BSC and Staff is worth the added risk.  I've played with Metalworker quite a bit and yes, some games you will be able to hardcast a BSC if it's in your hand.  Also a turn 1 Metalworker is highly counterable because it provides so much tempo.   Remember though, Null Rod decks aren't really packed with a lot of draw and tutors to find it.  You shouldn't build a deck that rolls to Null Rod, but that doesn't mean you have to be afraid of it by not playing powerful effects.  One could argue even that by including 4 Forgemasters, Forinos list rolls over and dies to Null Rod.  But thats not the case is it?

Others have tried the balls out combo approach with Serum Powders.  I think it's too inconsistent although sometimes you get some really fast wins.  MUD just wont have the same draw/tutor power as blue.  Casting a Sphere isn't the same as having Force of Will in your hand either.  The fact is that blue will win consistently faster, and then you might as well be playing Belcher...

Nataz if you want to try it go for it.  Maybe even test out Skullclamps w Retreivers(good w Forgemaster) for a draw engine.  I think it would be really fun, but probably not tournament worthy.

[TheShop]

Just an aside- I would run thousand-year elixir as a singleton over a singleton greaves.

[credmond]

Let statistics be your guide . . .

http://www.morphling.de/search.php?type=3&app=10&sorting=DESC&search=forgemaster&sent=1

There's a definite pattern of what winds up as part of a successful Forgemaster deck.

In addition to Forino's deck I would point out this deck as having the right balance . . .

It took first in a field of 50.

1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Metalworker
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sol Ring
 4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
4 Tangle Wire
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Phyrexian Metamorph


Lands (17):
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
 
Sideboard
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Witchbane Orb (for a quick update this becomes 4 x cage - just don't forget to blow cage when you forgemaster)

To work under null rod the deck needs to curve out at a certain point. Nataz, your deck has a higher curve than Forino's. The deck listed above and Forino's deck are better in my opinion. They have just been polished up more to hit the right balance. You have to shuffle and play them a lot to feel the balance. Its how fast those cards come out of your hands and the points at which Forgemaster becomes a factor and how much pressure has been established. And both decks are proven decks.

[nataz]

Let statistics be your guide . . .

I would, but there aren't enough top 8 results to have a meaningful inference. Which is why we have to go with qualitative, not quantitative discussion. Point taken however that you think my Mana cost is too high v. null rod.

I just disagree.

Here is the difference between Forino's Deck and the one I posted above switching staff for BSC.

Me:
4 Metalworker
2 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Precursor Golem
1 Staff

Forino:
1 Duplicant
1 2 Revokers
3 SOR
1 Steel Helkite
3 Metamorph


Total difference in mana costs = 9
Avg CC of the deck I posted = 1.9
Avg CC of Fornio's Deck= 1.75

the next thing to look at would be the SD, but I'm getting lazy, and again, none if its going to be significant.

I just don't buy that the .15 difference in avg CC is enough to really break you under null rod. Its not like I'm subbing mana for metalworker. If anything I have more mana because I play city of traitors over ports. 

Plus, against a deck with Null rod, would you rather have Wurmcoil engine and Precursor golem, or Sphere of resistance? No arguing that Forino may have built a better deck. I just don't buy the CC argument, or the operating under null rod argument.

I did the morphling search earlier - see the links in my OP. The decks are really very similar, which makes sense b/c I used the decks off Morphling for the shell. The only real difference is the swapping of some of the reactive cards (metamorph and revoker) + extra spheres for larger and more relevant threats.

Try not to think of the list as a combo list. Its more like an aggro WS list that has the option for a combo finish.

[Bakalias]

Regarding the staff, I must say that, after a lot of testings, it seems to be just wrong. (and it hurts me to say so after playing shop combo for several years)

You'll need to have already on board at least Metalworker, Forgemaster and 2 more artefacts to tinker AND to keep your metalo.
That means when you'll be able to reach your staff with your Forgemaster, your hand will be empty or you'll erase your own board.
If I need to wait 3/4 turns before comboing out, it's not worth it.

Also, I'd much prefere keeping the forgemaster on board than a metalworker who no longer does so much of manas...

So, OK, time to time you'll draw both metalo and staff on your starting hand, but if it's what you're looking for just put 4 of them on your list and remove the Forgemasters.

[credmond]

Let statistics be your guide . . .

I would, but there aren't enough top 8 results to have a meaningful inference. Which is why we have to go with qualitative, not quantitative discussion. Point taken however that you think my Mana cost is too high v. null rod.

I just disagree.

Here is the difference between Forino's Deck and the one I posted above switching staff for BSC.

Me:
4 Metalworker
2 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Precursor Golem
1 Staff

Forino:
1 Duplicant
1 2 Revokers
3 SOR
1 Steel Helkite
3 Metamorph


Total difference in mana costs = 9
Avg CC of the deck I posted = 1.9
Avg CC of Fornio's Deck= 1.75

the next thing to look at would be the SD, but I'm getting lazy, and again, none if its going to be significant.

I just don't buy that the .15 difference in avg CC is enough to really break you under null rod. Its not like I'm subbing mana for metalworker. If anything I have more mana because I play city of traitors over ports.  

Plus, against a deck with Null rod, would you rather have Wurmcoil engine and Precursor golem, or Sphere of resistance? No arguing that Forino may have built a better deck. I just don't buy the CC argument, or the operating under null rod argument.

I did the morphling search earlier - see the links in my OP. The decks are really very similar, which makes sense b/c I used the decks off Morphling for the shell. The only real difference is the swapping of some of the reactive cards (metamorph and revoker) + extra spheres for larger and more relevant threats.

Try not to think of the list as a combo list. Its more like an aggro WS list that has the option for a combo finish.

I count 11 mana difference since you don't need to count phyrexian mana. Also 5 of the cards that you are swapping in compared to Forino's are totally neutered by null rod effects. That is a very significant difference in my opinion.

Also, are you undervaluing metamorph? You are taking it out because it's a "reactive card". It's not a reactive card. The role it plays changes each game but usually its copying sphere effects or tangles or golems which is all tempo and aggro. Metamorphing Lodestone in particular is one of the most brutal plays that MUD can muster.

City of Traitors is weaker than port when facing wasteland/null rod since City wastes itself.

Your deck seems to follow up Lodestone Golem with Precursor Golem the next turn which is a strong but risky to a single bolt or claim or sword chain of vapor that clears your board. Following up Golem with a Metamorph though is a much, much stronger play in my opinion. I would only put Precursor Golem in your deck after fitting 3-4 metamorphs first.

Landstill playing against Forino's deck will be facing a stabler mana base and a lot more cheap disruption and mana drain will be harder to bring on line. Against your deck landstill will not be facing as much cheap disruption, null rod will blank a lot more of your cards completely, drain will be a lot easier to bring online, and wasteland and null rod will wreak a lot more havoc on your mana base.