Misthollow Griffin

[Klep]

All of this is kind of irrelevant though this is not playing the same role as jace in a deck.  Its a creature that can combo well with other cards not a card advantage engine.

Jace is a card advantage engine and a win condition.  I didn't say this card was unplayable.  I'm saying that if you're playing this card and you're not playing Jace, you need to have a good reason for that because Jace is unquestionably the better card for that slot in the curve.

[DubDub]

All of this is kind of irrelevant though this is not playing the same role as jace in a deck.  Its a creature that can combo well with other cards not a card advantage engine.

Jace is a card advantage engine and a win condition.  I didn't say this card was unplayable.  I'm saying that if you're playing this card and you're not playing Jace, you need to have a good reason for that because Jace is unquestionably the better card for that slot in the curve.

(Emphasis mine.)  This card isn't about 'the curve.'  It's not about the curve because if you're casting it from your hand you're doing something wrong.  It's about resources.  It used to be that when you pitched a card to Force of Will, or Misdirection, or Chrome Mox it was gone forever.  (I'm ignoring wishes, since they now don't work.)  This card changes that dynamic.  Fundamentally, the Exile zone can be a resource again.  That's HUGE, even if this card doesn't prove to be itself.

Certainly a 3/3 Flier for  is not as good as JTMS for  .  That's not the point.  The point is that now when you play one of the pitch-card disadvantage spells you get to also play with a card that says:

"0: if it's been ~4-5 turns, and you have nothing better to do, draw a card.  It'll be a crappy card, just a 3/3 Flier for  , but it's still a card, for free."

We'll have to wait and see if it will be good enough, but I am guessing, given the preponderance of <= 3 toughness dudes in the format, that it is good enough.

[Delha]

But I can flood mana and then decide to cast it, or not?

Yes. That's the only way to use mana from Chrome to cast an imprinted Marshmallow (does anyone else see that when they read the name?).


Edit
@DubDub: I think the point here is that Jace is better in the vast majority of cases. This is potentially a reduction in card disadvantage, where JMS actually builds advantage on its own. Also, I should point out that if you pitched this to FOW, that means you had a blank sitting in hand until then, which is arguably even worse than losing a useful card.

[vaughnbros]

Edit
@DubDub: I think the point here is that Jace is better in the vast majority of cases. This is potentially a reduction in card disadvantage, where JMS actually builds advantage on its own. Also, I should point out that if you pitched this to FOW, that means you had a blank sitting in hand until then, which is arguably even worse than losing a useful card.

All of this is kind of irrelevant though this is not playing the same role as jace in a deck.  Its a creature that can combo well with other cards not a card advantage engine.

Jace is a card advantage engine and a win condition.  I didn't say this card was unplayable.  I'm saying that if you're playing this card and you're not playing Jace, you need to have a good reason for that because Jace is unquestionably the better card for that slot in the curve.

Who said anything about cutting Jace? I think this cards home is going to be WITH Jace. Yes Jace will be better to cast in most situations when i have 4 mana up, but when my opponent has a bunch of creatures out and all of a sudden hey I can cast my turn 1 force fodder first so he has protection.  And there are plenty of other scenarios I could generate where this is good in conjunction with Jace.

Adding this card to a solid blue shell seems to have no drawback at all.  From my experience vintage seems to skip the whole mid game situation, so you are really in two situations early or late game.

In early game this is amazing force, misdirection, chrome mox fodder.

And in late game when I have plenty of mana laying around its a 3/3 flier.  Also in late game my 1 or 2 copies of manipulate fate, ty Elric I didn't realize this card existed, becomes tremendous to basically search up 9 power worth of fliers at the net cost of 0 cards from my hand.  Also a singleton Relic, fetch-able with trinket mage, which previously was only good against decks relying heavily on their gy now allows me to recur a griffin every turn with its tap ability.  Maybe this is too cute but having 3 3/3 fliers out at all times late game seems pretty amazing.

[Norm4eva]

I find it to be a solid, well-designed card.  It's "entirely fair", to be honest, even though a few years ago you never would have seen Wizards print a flying Hill Giant in Blue for 4cmc with a relevant ability that synergizes with one of its most recognized, fundamental Eternal staples.

DubDub's point is entirely relevant; I don't think anyone would or could make a viable argument for running the Owl instead of Jace.  I think its application in a control deck is obvious, as a means of setting up a means of ending the game in the early turns without needing to worry about card disadvantage inherent to pitch spells.  It clearly has a handful of other applications as well, one of the more obvious ones being Food Chain.

The most depressing thing about this card is that power creep has quashed the concept into the "cute zone".  Honestly, if we were still in a Morphling or maybe even Tog-based control deck world, this guy would absolutely be on par with those guys, as a means to shore up the aforementioned card disadvantage in those decks as well as provide a clock; in multiples, this dude basically plays like a 3/3 Squadron Hawk, and playing him again and again turn after turn is a rough functional equivalent to giving Morphling shroud.  The fact that even control decks would rather just go "herp derp Tinker BSC gg" places the Owl squarely in a lower tier of potential win conditions.  This is not explicitly a downside to Eternal format in any means, it's just kind of a bummer, because the design and execution of this card is really, really cool.

[gkraigher]

i think you all are right that turning the exile pile into something useful is good.  its just that a 3/3 flier for 4 mana is not good no matter where it is coming from.  if this thing cost 2 mana, maybe.  if it had 5 power (with more than 1 toughness) maybe.  But no amounts of force of will, misdirection, and commandeer can make a 3/3 flier for 4 mana playable in vintage.  

food chain makes some sense, but it costs 1 mana more than oath and requires you to have an emrakul in hand. 

[DubDub]

food chain makes some sense, but it costs 1 mana more than oath and requires you to have an emrakul in hand. 

You can do other things with food chain, mulldrifter, griselbrand, myojin of seeing winds, rune-scarred demon, kozilek, etc.

/not that I'm saying it's a good deck, but I'm also not saying it's not a good deck.
//confused myself there

[MaximumCDawg]

food chain makes some sense, but it costs 1 mana more than oath and requires you to have an emrakul in hand. 

You can do other things with food chain, mulldrifter, griselbrand, myojin of seeing winds, rune-scarred demon, kozilek, etc.

/not that I'm saying it's a good deck, but I'm also not saying it's not a good deck.
//confused myself there

Ooooh I wasn't playing during Kamigawa and I missed consideration of Evoke + Food Chain.  Paying 3 for two cards and six mana (Mulldrifter) or paying 1 for destroying an artifact and six mana (Chewer) seems absolutely sick - granted you need to resolve a 3cc enchantment first.  Did anyone ever try out this sort of engine back in the day?

[Darkenslight]

IF you were to build a Food Chain deck around this guy, I'd expect it to be pure UGb main, with Fierce Empath and Glimpse of Nature.  You'd also need a way to exile it from the Graveyard (HELLO, OOZE!) in case the Griffin gets countered.

ETA: I've just thought about the interaction between Food Chain and Heartless summoning, and it's rather amusing:

T1 Mana dork
T2 Food Chain
T3 Heartless summoning, combo.

And seeing ss you would be gaining three mana of a color of your choice, rather than the one through normal means, it would be highly amusing: however, the mana would be far less consistent.

[Wagner]

IF you were to build a Food Chain deck around this guy, I'd expect it to be pure UGb main, with Fierce Empath and Glimpse of Nature.  You'd also need a way to exile it from the Graveyard (HELLO, OOZE!) in case the Griffin gets countered.

ETA: I've just thought about the interaction between Food Chain and Heartless summoning, and it's rather amusing:

T1 Mana dork
T2 Food Chain
T3 Heartless summoning, combo.

And seeing ss you would be gaining three mana of a color of your choice, rather than the one through normal means, it would be highly amusing: however, the mana would be far less consistent.

Why do you need Heartless summoning? In your example you already have 4 mana on turn 3 with the mana dork, and you can even sacrifice the mana dork for more mana with Food Chain to go off. Gaining 3 mana instead of 1 is irrelevant if you go infinite.

For the more combo approach, Survival of the Fittest does seem pretty efficient to get the combo pieces.

[Ego_Sum]

If only it had flash... but doesn' t seem it can fit.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Klep]

This card isn't about 'the curve.'  It's not about the curve because if you're casting it from your hand you're doing something wrong.  It's about resources. 

Those resources, in the case of both cards, being mana, which means its spot in your curve matters.  Whether you're casting it from your hand or from exile you're still paying 4 mana for it.  It may pitch to Force of Will, but so does Upheaval and no one plays that because it's way too expensive.  There are only so many 4-mana (or more) spells you can afford to run in a Vintage blue deck, and this one is clearly inferior to Jace.   If you're going to start running this, then you're going to start running into more hands that don't have enough mana or you're going to have to cut other expensive cards (like Jace).  In either case, you need a strong justification for it and "It can be used after being pitched to Force" just isn't good enough on its own.

[Delha]

Who said anything about cutting Jace? I think this cards home is going to be WITH Jace. Yes Jace will be better to cast in most situations when i have 4 mana up, but when my opponent has a bunch of creatures out and all of a sudden hey I can cast my turn 1 force fodder first so he has protection.  And there are plenty of other scenarios I could generate where this is good in conjunction with Jace.

Adding this card to a solid blue shell seems to have no drawback at all.  From my experience vintage seems to skip the whole mid game situation, so you are really in two situations early or late game.

In early game this is amazing force, misdirection, chrome mox fodder.

And in late game when I have plenty of mana laying around its a 3/3 flier.  Also in late game my 1 or 2 copies of manipulate fate, ty Elric I didn't realize this card existed, becomes tremendous to basically search up 9 power worth of fliers at the net cost of 0 cards from my hand.  Also a singleton Relic, fetch-able with trinket mage, which previously was only good against decks relying heavily on their gy now allows me to recur a griffin every turn with its tap ability.  Maybe this is too cute but having 3 3/3 fliers out at all times late game seems pretty amazing.

It's the opportunity cost. EVERY card you ever run takes up a slot that could be something. Auto-includes are simply known to be strong enough that whatever you replace them with will probably be inferior. Unless you're already running 4x Jace, your deck can probably be improved by replacing griffins with Jaces.

Think seriously about the FoW scenario, with CARD being either Jace or Griffin.
1. FoW with only one pitchable card in hand. Griffin wins. You have to pitch something, and Jace obviously does nothing from exile.
2. FoW with CARD and blue filler. Jace wins. Casting Jace is pretty much indisputably better than Griffin + Preordain.
3. FoW with multiple pitchable bombs. Jace wins. You get to choose among your bombs and keep the best thing for your board state. With Griffin, yes you keep your bomb, but  you don't get a choice.
4. No FoW. Maybe you had to Force before drawing CARD, never drew a FoW, or simply didn't need see a threat worth Forcing. Jace wins.

Finally, casting Manipulate Fate is not a net cost of zero cards in hand, it is -1 CA. Jace, on the other hand, is truly neutral (assuming you BS immediately).

[serracollector]

Manipulate Fate is a cantrip, so it replaces itself.  Manipulate Fate for 3 griffin's is an interesting play, but it requires 4 slots as had been said by most.  And it "broken blue.dec" what 4 cards would you want to remove for these 4? 

[Delha]

Manipulate Fate is a cantrip, so it replaces itself.  Manipulate Fate for 3 griffin's is an interesting play, but it requires 4 slots as had been said by most.  And it "broken blue.dec" what 4 cards would you want to remove for these 4?

You're right, apologies for the oversight. Shoulda RTFC.

[gkraigher]

manipulate fate and foresight are interesting developments. 

[MaximumCDawg]

I'm surprised that Extract hasn't come up in this thread yet.  Seems like the best way to tutor for a Griffin using a card that actually has some utility on it's own if you need to use it that way.  Nailing Oath or a blue combo deck with a few Extracts is gg.

[gkraigher]

extract isn't bad.  but i don't see what it does vs. oath really.

[MaximumCDawg]

extract isn't bad.  but i don't see what it does vs. oath really.

Oath (other than Demon) typically runs 1 or 2 fatties.  If you hit two Extracts, they can't win that way.  If you find some Oath targets you can answer and some you cannot, you can get by with just a single hit.  Now, Sadistic Sacrement or Cap gets you there in fewer cards, but Extract is much easier to play than those guys.

[Daenyth]

Extract has not been playable in a long time, if ever. It doesn't effect the board, doesn't effect their hand, and you're not guaranteed to remove victory paths by resolving it.

[MaximumCDawg]

Extract has not been playable in a long time, if ever. It doesn't effect the board, doesn't effect their hand, and you're not guaranteed to remove victory paths by resolving it.

Yeah, very true, but if you were able to cobble together a combo deck with Chain->Griffin or something, it's a way to run a singleton Griffin using a card that isn't totally useless if you're not going off. 

[TheWhiteDragon]

I must be missing something.  I don't see how this card is playable in any kind of combo.  What playable combo am I not seeing?  I saw something about food chain and this griffin, but c'mon...2G + removing griffin + 2UU to recast griffin + win con? 

[Darkenslight]

I must be missing something.  I don't see how this card is playable in any kind of combo.  What playable combo am I not seeing?  I saw something about food chain and this griffin, but c'mon...2G + removing griffin + 2UU to recast griffin + win con? 

Infinite creature-only Mana, and a wincon with either Pandemonium or Warstorm Surge.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Isn't that a crapton of mana and cards when you can just vault/key, oath, tinker, etc?