Not Another Teen Griselbrand Deck

[The Atog Lord]

Alright. I'll bite. What is the draw engine that this deck has, that Ritual Oath does not?

Is it getting Griselbrand into play? Because Ritual Oath does that too.

Ritual Oath also has Jace, which is an actual draw engine.

[Blue Lotus]

I supposed 'engine' is an overstatement, but you do actually draw cards with careful study.

I would say Jace is a win condition, not a draw engine. As in, if you stick a Jace, you are probably going to win. Do you need to draw cards with Ritual Oath? Maybe not due to the high threat density. But I was playing ritual oath and was frustrated with its performance against decks with counters and it's inability to sculpt a hand and fight said counters. So I made this, thought it had potential, and asked for feedback.

I think I made it clear that this is in no way strictly superior to ritual oath, just has different strengths and weaknesses.

[bluemage55]

But I was playing ritual oath and was frustrated with its performance against decks with counters and it's inability to sculpt a hand and fight said counters.

How is this deck superior at sculpting a hand and fighting counters?  Or is the idea to simply all-in fast enough that fewer counters are relevant?

[TheWhiteDragon]

Okay....

So as I said, I've been testing this idea for some time and tweaking a list.  I've found the rite of consumption, while seeming awful at first, is really an excellent kill.  It is not hard at all to cast rite and another shallow grave into another rite for the extra 14 damage (once you have successfully animated).  Now, this deck goes ALL in, and is really meant to win turn 1.  It has show and tell as a backup, though it is poor as a main plan.  IF you get grisel into play, you almost can't lose.  You can either do the aforementioned time walk trick, or you can hastily swing, draw 21, and rite/shallow/rite for the additional 14 damage (as well as fueling 7 more cards in between).  This deck sports a lot of free spells and fast mana.  FoW and unmask can help you get the animator through, but once you draw 28 (you'll be discarding anyway), getting mana from chrome/diamond is simple and ripping hands with unmasks is free.

So, here you go - it is still as fragile as any build I've seen, but much less "fizzly" and more consistent on turn 1 with unmask/FoW/misstep backup (oh, and misstep is WAY better than daze since you can stop a turn 1 cage when you aren't on the play):


// Lands
    1  Island
    2  Swamp
    4  Polluted Delta
    4  Underground Sea

// Creatures
    2  Griselbrand

// Spells
    1  Show and Tell
    2  Thoughtseize
    1  Chain of Vapor
    3  Rite of Consumption
    1  Echoing Truth
    1  Black Lotus
    3  Shallow Grave
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Lotus Petal
    4  Dark Ritual
    4  Mental Misstep
    4  Force of Will
    4  Entomb
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Time Walk
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    2  Careful Study
    3  Goryo's Vengeance
    2  Unmask
    1  Mox Diamond
    3  Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Show and Tell
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 4  Yixlid Jailer

P.S. The sideboard TOTALLY needs work - I just slapped something together to have something (I had 4 grisel at one point, and the S&Ts never changed)

[Blue Lotus]

But I was playing ritual oath and was frustrated with its performance against decks with counters and it's inability to sculpt a hand and fight said counters.

How is this deck superior at sculpting a hand and fighting counters?  Or is the idea to simply all-in fast enough that fewer counters are relevant?

Mostly. Also, you don't need any lands past 2 so they can be filtered out by careful study. The main goal is to get online before they have up. Does this happen at a higher regularity then ritual oath? I can't speak to that. But the end result is something speedy that I think can be fine tuned to something more than decent. If you disagree and think this is a waste of time it's not like I'm going to fault you for not trying it.

Still waiting on your dragon list BTW.

@ White Dragon 11 lands! Even I'm not that bold.

[TheWhiteDragon]

11 lands, but 8 U/B "moxen" and 4 rituals.  The goal is to land 1 mana into a ritual or a couple mana to entomb one turn and grave/groyo the next so you can just draw a ton and drop your free mana/free counters/free unmasks for the win.

You can only drop 1 land a turn, and if I'm taking more than 2 turns, I fully expect I've lost the game.

[Blue Lotus]

Well for starters I think -3 rites of consumption +1 tendrils, +2 lands. If you are going to play so much free storm, you may end up being faster than rite + pass and atleast be able to draw more cards.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Well for starters I think -3 rites of consumption +1 tendrils, +2 lands. If you are going to play so much free storm, you may end up being faster than rite + pass and atleast be able to draw more cards.

I tried this as my first approach, and it was bad for a few reasons...

storm to 7 is not ALWAYS easy (it is fairly easy), but not as easy as rite/shallow/rite.  Also, there are times your DT/tendrils sit on the bottom of your deck - but rarely are DT and all three rites on the bottom.  Also, rite allows you to hit for 7 and gain 7 (read: 7 cards) for just 2 mana.  This lets you get 7 deeper than tendrils to continue the chaining.  You never play rite + pass.  You play shallow, swing for 7 - draw 21, rite, shallow, draw 7 more, rite (and that's gg).  With moxen and rituals, you get the mana you need fairly quickly, and all you need is a fast 3 mana to do it all.  Tendrils is great when you are going with yawg will, but it actually needs just as much setup if not more.  The cheaper spell turns out better in this case.  Even if all you can do is turn 1 swing and draw a bunch, then next turn shallow, swing, rite...it's easier than tendrils.  It also is slightly easier vs spheres (but mud is a terrible match you want to beat on turn 1 anyway).

Honestly, you just need 3 mana - 1 land drop and any other mana.  A few lands in hand is basically a land and 2 blanks.

[Blue Lotus]

Ah I see now, not bad!

[TheWhiteDragon]

So, I added 2 unmask and cut a study/seize.  Unmask really helps you save mana to clear a path for ritual/entomb/shallow.  Study becomes just bad card filter when you only have 2 grisel (which is all you need with entomb to get a smidge of resilience against a quick swords/path).  A show and tell is an acceptable plan B, but if you can manage to drop lotus-S&T or sapphire, land, ritual, S&T, you will win.  Once grisel hits in any way, you win.  There is almost 0% fizzle with this build.  The trick is getting it to go off fast.  I am considering adding back mystical, since it is entomb/shallow/S&T.  It's also not impossible to hardcast grisel (in which case you draw, rite for 7, shallow and swing, then rite again).

I'm thinking about mystical (consultation is really too dangerous with 2 grisel), and possibly bazaar as an extra digger in place of study.  In a pinch, bazaar can dig a few times and pitch extra land/chrome moxen to get at the meat.

Thoughts?

[bluemage55]

But I was playing ritual oath and was frustrated with its performance against decks with counters and it's inability to sculpt a hand and fight said counters.

How is this deck superior at sculpting a hand and fighting counters?  Or is the idea to simply all-in fast enough that fewer counters are relevant?

Mostly. Also, you don't need any lands past 2 so they can be filtered out by careful study. The main goal is to get online before they have up. Does this happen at a higher regularity then ritual oath? I can't speak to that. But the end result is something speedy that I think can be fine tuned to something more than decent. If you disagree and think this is a waste of time it's not like I'm going to fault you for not trying it.

Not too long ago, I'd actually agree that this would be a viable strategy.  However, given that Mental Misstep and Flusterstorm exist now (and that Drains aren't as prevalent as they once were), I doubt the turn 1.5 all-in strategy is better than a more combo/control route these days.  Feel free to prove me wrong with tourney results though.

Still waiting on your dragon list BTW.

Demonic Attorney’s lists (search TMD, or take a look at his list at GenCon last year) are pretty good examples of a less explosive, but more resilient approach to reanimator combo.  They’d require tweaking/modernizing for today, but you get the idea.

[brianpk80]

Ritual Oath is not infallible. I do not see why you are offended by me pointing out its weaknesses, especially when in the next sentence I point out a strength ritual Oath has that this deck does not.  You are hung up on the name as a slight to Mr. Shay and ritual oath.

No, I'm not "hung up" or offended when a weakness in a Magic deck is correctly pointed out.  You didn't accurately identify any of the flaws in the other list; you only claimed it had no draw engine, which is false.  This is not something that I find upsetting on an emotional level.  There are many factors that differentiate your contribution from a competent primer placed in the correct forum.  I only pointed out a few of the shortcomings as I did not want to insult you gratuitously.  There can be no slithering away from those defects by pretending I'm easily offended.

There's a broader palette of creatures that hit the Griselbrand decks.  Traditional Oath/Reanimate decks had no reason to worry about Phyrexian Revoker or Ethersworn Canonist.  

But anyone can play this game for every deck. This deck isn't hit by qasali pridemage, for example, like dragon or oath. Or wasteland for that matter.

That is true.  There's a countermeasure for every tactic and the "but it can be Swordsed" and "but it can be Counterspelled" arguments are unconvincing.  The fact that so many of the Fish interfere with Griselbrand doesn't mean that he shouldn't be played; it only means the pilot needs to be aware of the extra exposure and prepare accordingly.       

[Blue Lotus]

No, I'm not "hung up" or offended when a weakness in a Magic deck is correctly pointed out.  You didn't accurately identify any of the flaws in the other list; you only claimed it had no draw engine, which is false.  This is not something that I find upsetting on an emotional level.  There are many factors that differentiate your contribution from a competent primer placed in the correct forum.  I only pointed out a few of the shortcomings as I did not want to insult you gratuitously.  There can be no slithering away from those defects by pretending I'm easily offended.

I am very open about the issues with this deck. I have used no personal attacks. Until now. You are a hypocrite. You are a backseat mod. You do not have to read this thread. Do I complain when you waste my internet bandwith with garbage like wall of blood combo posts? No. Yet you come in here and talk about how I am slithering away from defects. The fact is the deck name is a joke, based on the inane movie "not another teen movie" and you didn't get it

what exactly is not teen about this deck

I have been very open with the many issues of the deck. I'm sorry I don't consider casting jace a draw engine. I shared MY OPINION about ritual oath. What are ritual Oath's defects, if mine account of them is inaccurate? Or is the deck perfect, as you seem to think.

If you don't want people to perceive you as being easily offended, then don't act that way. Don't jump in defending someone's honor over two lines of text on a magic deck.

If you disagree thats fine but don't shame me publicly for sharing. You don't like my writing style? Send me a PM. Don't be a jackass.

That is true.  There's a countermeasure for every tactic and the "but it can be Swordsed" and "but it can be Counterspelled" arguments are unconvincing.  The fact that so many of the Fish interfere with Griselbrand doesn't mean that he shouldn't be played; it only means the pilot needs to be aware of the extra exposure and prepare accordingly.      

So we are in total agreement. Jesus Christ.

[The Atog Lord]

Guys, we've been having a good discussion here. Please don't let this devolve into a series of personal attacks. The point is to discuss Griselbrand decks, not each other.

[vaughnbros]

Alright here's the Reanimator/Storm Griselbrand list I've been testing that I think solves a lot of peoples problems with this list.  This version has Turn 1 win potential, a draw engine, storm package, and tinker/bsc.  This comes at the cost of some of the disruption and extra copies for the reanimator package.

4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
1 Brainstorm
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
2 Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Lotus Petal
1 Swamp
3 Dark Ritual
3 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Griselbrand
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Shallow Grave
2 Entomb
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Tinker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Show and Tell

This list is 61 cards I couldn't figure out the worst card since all of them seem pretty useful.  I haven't constructed a sideboard for it yet.

Basically the Plan A for this deck is to storm out by using Accumulated Knowledge/Intuition, Show and Tell/Bargain, or Shallow Grave/Griselbrand as the draw source

Plan B is to hit your opponent with Tinker/BSC or Shallow Grave/BSC

In testing the only deck I didn't feel favored in, main deck versus main deck that is, was Shops.  However, due to the vulnerability of this to GY hate I definitely anticipate my G2/G3 percentages to drop against most of the other blue decks.  So I'd expect the sideboard to have to focus on Shops and Blue decks that have access to cage.

[boggyb]

Shallow Grave + BSC doesn't work.

[vaughnbros]

Shallow Grave + BSC doesn't work.

Yeh my bad I forgot that it was a replacement effect and not a trigger.  Tinker/BSC could probably both be cut then in favor of an Emrakul.