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Author Topic: [Deck] Drain Tendrils  (Read 81473 times)
meadbert
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« Reply #180 on: September 12, 2012, 07:31:22 am »

0 Tendrils of Agony is on purpose.  Tinker+Time Walk is the preferred win now option.  Each card is a bomb on their own (although BSC is a dead draw) and together they win now.  Also each can generate mana when going off since Walk lets you play a draw spell and take another turn and you can Tinker for Lotus in front of Yawg.
Sometimes BSC gets Swordsed by Fish which is really bad.
Beyond that if Tinker is countered twice then you are probably losing anyway.
Also hardcasting BSC is not as rare as you might think.  The draw engine is silly and 30 mana sources (including Drains + Chain) means getting double digit mana is not uncommon.

If I were running Gushbond, I would probably not run 7 Drains + Leaks.
Protecting Fastbond from Misstep would be a higher priority and would demand missteps of my own.
I would definitely not run just the changes you suggested.   A better question is why not just run a more traditional deck with a Gushbond engine.

Advantages of my list:
2 Color mana base is good for Shops
Nearly pure instant draw engine means you get Drain + Leak mana up most of the time.
Faster goldfish
Draw engine that draws more cards
11 hard counters
A control deck that is barely touched by Mental Misstep
Few card disadvantage tutors

Disadvantages of my list:
Chalice for 0+1 on turn 1 is bad.
Chalice@2 is pretty bad (No more Drain, Leaks, AKs or Snap Casters)
Wants lots of mana.
Low 1cc count means few turn 1 play when no accelerates or when Chalice@0 was dropped.

The matchup I have been losing the most sleep over is Workshops.
In particular, Hurkyl's Recall might have been wrong because Chalice@2 was already so strong.  Maybe those should be Rebuilds.
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bluemage55
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« Reply #181 on: September 12, 2012, 08:57:57 am »

0 Tendrils of Agony is on purpose.  Tinker+Time Walk is the preferred win now option.  Each card is a bomb on their own (although BSC is a dead draw) and together they win now.  Also each can generate mana when going off since Walk lets you play a draw spell and take another turn and you can Tinker for Lotus in front of Yawg.
Sometimes BSC gets Swordsed by Fish which is really bad.
Beyond that if Tinker is countered twice then you are probably losing anyway.
Also hardcasting BSC is not as rare as you might think.  The draw engine is silly and 30 mana sources (including Drains + Chain) means getting double digit mana is not uncommon.

If you're not capitalizing on a storm win condition, what exactly makes your list Drain Tendrils as opposed to simply a Drain deck with a subpar draw engine instead of Bob or Gushbond?

The matchup I have been losing the most sleep over is Workshops.
In particular, Hurkyl's Recall might have been wrong because Chalice@2 was already so strong.  Maybe those should be Rebuilds.

It might help if you had 2x maindeck Hurkyl's Recall along with the Tendrils that they can fuel.  It might also help if you had green or red to sideboard Nature's Claim or Ingot Chewers (somethin that's more valuable against Shop than the keeping the deck two colors).  Finally, it might also help if you weren't relying on a draw engine that is not only expensive, but twice affected by sphere effects (the 2 Tiagos only add to this).

Here's a more thoroughly revised list with a much better Shop matchup (particularly with additional Hurkyl's and Claims in the sb), stronger draw engine, lower mana curve, similar goldfishing, and a comparable control package:

6 Fetchlands
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Island (1 Snow Covered is fine)
1 Tolarian Academy

8 Artifact Mana

2 Mental Misstep
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Duress

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Gush

1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Tinker
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Fastbond
1 Regrowth
1 Blightsteel Colossus
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meadbert
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« Reply #182 on: September 12, 2012, 01:30:42 pm »

0 Tendrils of Agony is on purpose.  Tinker+Time Walk is the preferred win now option.  Each card is a bomb on their own (although BSC is a dead draw) and together they win now.  Also each can generate mana when going off since Walk lets you play a draw spell and take another turn and you can Tinker for Lotus in front of Yawg.
Sometimes BSC gets Swordsed by Fish which is really bad.
Beyond that if Tinker is countered twice then you are probably losing anyway.
Also hardcasting BSC is not as rare as you might think.  The draw engine is silly and 30 mana sources (including Drains + Chain) means getting double digit mana is not uncommon.

If you're not capitalizing on a storm win condition, what exactly makes your list Drain Tendrils as opposed to simply a Drain deck with a subpar draw engine instead of Bob or Gushbond?

The matchup I have been losing the most sleep over is Workshops.
In particular, Hurkyl's Recall might have been wrong because Chalice@2 was already so strong.  Maybe those should be Rebuilds.

It might help if you had 2x maindeck Hurkyl's Recall along with the Tendrils that they can fuel.  It might also help if you had green or red to sideboard Nature's Claim or Ingot Chewers (somethin that's more valuable against Shop than the keeping the deck two colors).  Finally, it might also help if you weren't relying on a draw engine that is not only expensive, but twice affected by sphere effects (the 2 Tiagos only add to this).

Here's a more thoroughly revised list with a much better Shop matchup (particularly with additional Hurkyl's and Claims in the sb), stronger draw engine, lower mana curve, similar goldfishing, and a comparable control package:

6 Fetchlands
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Island (1 Snow Covered is fine)
1 Tolarian Academy

8 Artifact Mana

2 Mental Misstep
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Duress

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Gush

1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Tinker
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Fastbond
1 Regrowth
1 Blightsteel Colossus
So you pull out 4 Intuitions, 4 Accumulated Knowledge and 2 Fact or Fictions and add 4 Gush, 2 Jace and Twister and declare your draw engine better?
To be fair Gush is the better draw spell.  There is a reason it was restricted twice.  Still, I believe you are underestimating the power of Intuition/AK with a few Facts thrown in.  Also Snapcaster on AK for 4 is insane, while Snapcastering Gush is weak and Snapcaster cannot replay Jace.  You draw engine has advantages.  In particular it is more combolicious, but it does not gain more card advantage.

Your mana curve is "lower" but without Fastbond you rarely want to Gush before turn 3.  Meanwhile Intuition is a fine turn 2 play and Fact or Fiction can frequently be played turn 2 and almost always by turn 3.  None of these prevent me from keeping Drain mana up during my opponents main phase like a turn 3 Gush would.  Although your draw spends less mana it is actually slower.  Furthermore Intuition has great flexibility in that it can grab Force in an emergency or "win now" in the late game.

For shops you add 2 Hurkyl's which makes a huge difference, but then Tendrils can be an extra dead card in hand.  You drop the number of basics and drop 2 mana sources.  You run Duress which is fairly poor vs Shops and Mental Misstep which is close to totally dead.  You are left with Colossus, Tendrils and 2 Missteps being almost dead and Duress is super risky since fetching Sea on turn 1 is too risky when you want to get Gush mana up and waiting till later makes Duress much worse.

I have not tested your list yet, but it is not obvious to me that the draw engine or Shops matchup is better.

While the goldfishing may be similar, in practice I expect my list to play out faster because all the draw spells are somewhat redundant, while your list is more bomb oriented.  You do run more control with 12 counters including Duress and 2 Bounce.  That is two more control cards than I run.  If Doomsday Gush or other combo become popular then your list will be much better because having access to the 4 Duress + Misstep will matter more, but as is I think I would rather have the Mana Leaks which remain useful against Shops.
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bluemage55
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« Reply #183 on: September 12, 2012, 06:48:56 pm »

So you pull out 4 Intuitions, 4 Accumulated Knowledge and 2 Fact or Fictions and add 4 Gush, 2 Jace and Twister and declare your draw engine better?
To be fair Gush is the better draw spell.  There is a reason it was restricted twice.  Still, I believe you are underestimating the power of Intuition/AK with a few Facts thrown in.  Also Snapcaster on AK for 4 is insane, while Snapcastering Gush is weak and Snapcaster cannot replay Jace.  You draw engine has advantages.  In particular it is more combolicious, but it does not gain more card advantage.

I used to play with both Intuition-AK and Fact in their respective heydays, so I'm not unfamiliar with their use. While I don't have extensive experience playing with Intuition/AK and Fact and Snapcaster, the testing I tried with your list suggests that it's too clunky and win-more.  In general, if you're capable of resolving Intuition or Fact, followed by AK and/or Snapcaster+AK, you were already winning in the first place.  Against Shops, it typically means you've got 4+ mana free or their board state is heavily in check.  Against Dredge, it means they're controlled by your sb hate or you drew the nuts.  Against blue decks, you managed to win the counter war to resolve it.  I do agree that Intuition-AK and Fact are generally underrated by most people who didn't play with them in the glory days, but I also think it should be fairly uncontroversial that Gushbond and Jace are generally superior engines today.

Your mana curve is "lower" but without Fastbond you rarely want to Gush before turn 3. Meanwhile Intuition is a fine turn 2 play and Fact or Fiction can frequently be played turn 2 and almost always by turn 3.  None of these prevent me from keeping Drain mana up during my opponents main phase like a turn 3 Gush would.

How often are you trying to cast Intuition on turn 2 anyway?   We already have a lot of turn 2 options, notably Drain, but also Ancestral, BS, TfK, Mystical, Merchant Scroll, Tinker, Vamp, Demonic, Time Walk, Timetwister, Fastbond->Gush, Regrowth, Snapcaster...  Intuition usually isn't the spell you want to cast first except when baiting counters.  As for Fact, Jace is usually playable whenever Fact is (except when holding back Drain), and is typically a more powerful/flexible (if less explosive) option.

Although your draw spends less mana it is actually slower.

Only if you're not actually interacting with your opponent, and only when I don't hit my explosive bombs and end the game immediately.

For shops you add 2 Hurkyl's which makes a huge difference, but then Tendrils can be an extra dead card in hand. You drop the number of basics and drop 2 mana sources.  You run Duress which is fairly poor vs Shops and Mental Misstep which is close to totally dead.  You are left with Colossus, Tendrils and 2 Missteps being almost dead and Duress is super risky since fetching Sea on turn 1 is too risky when you want to get Gush mana up and waiting till later makes Duress much worse.

We also drop the mana curve substantially and provide more explosiveness, both of which help a lot with the Shop matchup.  We drop the number of basics by 1, which is more than outweighed by the sb hate options (as well as the sheer power of Fastbond) provided by green.  Duress and Mental Misstep (included to protect the additional bombs and for the synergy with Snapcaster) are admittedly poor vs. Shop, but the Shop matchup still ends up favorable with the game 1 Hurkyl's and the ability to bring in more Hurkyl's and Nature's Claim in games 2/3.
 
I have not tested your list yet, but it is not obvious to me that the draw engine or Shops matchup is better.

While the goldfishing may be similar, in practice I expect my list to play out faster because all the draw spells are somewhat redundant, while your list is more bomb oriented.

You do run more control with 12 counters including Duress and 2 Bounce.  That is two more control cards than I run.  If Doomsday Gush or other combo become popular then your list will be much better because having access to the 4 Duress + Misstep will matter more, but as is I think I would rather have the Mana Leaks which remain useful against Shops.

Your list gains more CA on average in a vacuum, and only goldfishes similarly because it lacks explosive finishing.  However, in an interactive game your list falls behind when it's not already winning substantially.  Mana Leaks are better against Shops (and only Shops), sure.  However, this is heavily outweighed by the strength of maindeck Hurkyl's (especially hilarious with Snapcaster) and greater explosiveness.

Overall, your list has more explosive (and expensive) CA, but has less explosive winning.  Most importantly, running 4 basics, 2 colors, and 0 Tendrils to hedge against Shops is less efficient than simply running maindeck Hurkyl's + Tendrils, and green for Gushbond and Claim.


Edit: I'm stupid and forgot about Mana Vault.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 10:31:49 pm by bluemage55 » Logged
meadbert
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« Reply #184 on: September 12, 2012, 09:34:45 pm »

SoloMoxen+Crypt+Petal only total to 9 (were you running Grim Monolith?).
Mana Vault
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bluemage55
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« Reply #185 on: September 12, 2012, 09:36:47 pm »

SoloMoxen+Crypt+Petal only total to 9 (were you running Grim Monolith?).
Mana Vault

Ahh, my mistake for missing that.
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Ten-Ten
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« Reply #186 on: September 15, 2012, 08:47:11 am »

@ Bluemage55:
how have the 4 mana drain worked out for you alongside Gush? I always end up cutting down to two or three and go up one thoughtseize/Flusterstorm.
I had a similar list sleeved up for a while but instead of 2 Jace/ 2 snapcaster I had 3 Sensei's top/ 1 opal.
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