Serious Vintage podcast, Ep. 3 - Workshoppin' and Sandwich Punchin' with Twaun

[GrandpaBelcher]

http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=3243

Welcome to the third installment of the Serious Vintage Podcast, hosted by Nat Moes (@GrandpaBelcher on Twitter), Geoff Moes (@ThallidTosser on Twitter), and Josh Chapple (@joshchapple on Twitter). This was a special episode as we spent some time with Anthony Michaels @Twaun007 on Twitter), an expert on Mishra’s Workshop prison decks in the Vintage format. He’s also an expert on Sandwich Punch, the gentleman’s game that has swept through the Midwest Vintage scene, so we’ll look at that as well, along with sanctioned Vintage and casual Magic: the Gathering.

The writeup also contains a decklist and the Official Rules of the Sandwich Punch Game. Read and listen and find out why Trinisphere sucks and Sandwich Punch is awesome.

Here’s the timestamped table of contents for your listening ease and enjoyment:
00:33 – Workshoppin’ with Twaun
27:14 – The Columbus Team Serious Open
31:38 – Sanctioned Vintage: Good Idea or Great Idea?
36:32 – Casual Magicking: No Turning Back
38:55 – Serious Eats: Thurman’s and Sandwich Punch

[MaximumCDawg]

Team Black Gold shout out!  Nice to hear that place getting some press.  I play there all the time, too - or at least I did till the second child rolled around.  I should be back next week, though; my wife says she's starting to feel comfortable enough to let me out of the house for an evening here and there.

Everything he said about Black Gold (and sanctioned Vintage in general) was true, too.  You get a small percentage of people with power, a larger group (including me) of semi-powered, and then a huge group of unpowered players.  The strategies that people develop to compete in this bizarre metagame are really fun to watch.  You can go check out the winning decklists on Black Gold's web site: http://www.blackgoldsports.com/vintagedecks.html  You can see my Animar, Soul of Elements brew that won a tournament.  Further back in time, I had a B/R beats deck that sideboarded into a dark depths / painter's servant combo deck that took it down, but it looks like that one wasnt posted.  

It's a great group and if you are remotely interested in having a good time, you should make Black Gold your Wednesday location.

P.S. We do not sandwich punch.  That sounds like the most stupid and aggravating game in the world, particularly where the condiment splatter might land on cards costing $1,000.00 a pop...

EDIT: Josh, are you showing up at BG again?

[GrandpaBelcher]

Thanks for listening! We're always happy to help promote Vintage communities!

Also, it's understandable that you wouldn't play Sandwich Punch around Vintage cards. Some people just aren't very good at the game.

[President Skroob]

To be fair, I don't think I've ever seen anybody really eat around Vintage cards, so there's not much chance of getting a sandwich punched around Vintage cards. These things go hand in hand.

[CoffeeCup]

Colin, I do plan on making my way to Black Gold on a regular basis again.  My work schedule has changed again allowing me to game on Wed.  Although, I won't be making it tonight as the only deck I have together is dredge.....and I just won't do that to my friends.

Also, like Nat said, thanks for listening and replying!

And I agree that Sandwich Punch and Vintage decks is a nonbo.  Food/Drink and Vintage cards at the same time generally aren't the best decision.

[Smmenen]

How Many Sith has Twuan Pnwertown actually slain?  

Interesting podcast so far, but it seems there were lots of inconsistencies.  Twaun bashed Smokestack, and then concluded it is essential :p   He said that he wants a slow, grindy strategy, but they listed Golem as the most important card :p  He said Tangle Wire immediately impacts the board.  That's also not true.  You have to pass the turn before it does anything.  Those tensions weren't addressed.  

Also, this podcast would have been more entertaining from the part I've heard so far if Twuan was let loose and really showed his full personality

Also, the Trinisphere issue wasn't really discussed in that much detail, from what I've heard so far.   The argument isn't whether Trinisphere is necessary is some abstract sense, but whether it contributes to game wins in comparison to anything else that might be in that slot.  Trinisphere's ability to steal games is why it's necessary.  

[President Skroob]

I think all of us came out of the discussion thinking that we had only scratched the surface on the Shop discussion, even after dedicating half the podcast to it. I brought up a number of your concerns to Twaun after the fact, because I noticed them as well in doing the editing, and he had a lot more to say.

Whether they come up here or in a future podcast, that's Twaun's decision on how he wants to defend his statements.

As far as Twaun's personality, I think he felt like he had to come across as distinguished at first, but once we started getting the liquor on his breath he loosened up nicely.

[JACO]

Also, this podcast would have been more entertaining from the part I've heard so far if Twuan was let loose and really showed his full personality

Most people can't handle the full Twaun007 experience. He was trying to be very professional I suspect.

Also, the Trinisphere issue wasn't really discussed in that much detail, from what I've heard so far. The argument isn't whether Trinisphere is necessary is some abstract sense, but whether it contributes to game wins in comparison to anything else that might be in that slot.  Trinisphere's ability to steal games is why it's necessary.  

I agree that the Trinisphere discussion was highly questionable. So questionable in fact, that I'm preparing to return to Vintage writing by penning a special article on the Trinisphere debate. Twaun007 may be penning a counterargument follow up piece as well.

[MaximumCDawg]

Colin, I do plan on making my way to Black Gold on a regular basis again.  My work schedule has changed again allowing me to game on Wed.  Although, I won't be making it tonight as the only deck I have together is dredge.....and I just won't do that to my friends.

Psh, think nothing of it.  The more people bring Dredge to a tourney, the more time we have to play EDH between rounds!

Also, like Nat said, thanks for listening and replying!

No problem.  Im stoked that there are now TWO Vintage podcasts.  That's pretty awesome; nothing I'd rather listen to on long runs than people ramble on about the format I love.  

Are you a permanent fixture of their show now?

How Many Sith has Twuan Pnwertown actually slain?  
Interesting podcast so far, but it seems there were lots of inconsistencies.  Twaun bashed Smokestack, and then concluded it is essential :p   He said that he wants a slow, grindy strategy, but they listed Golem as the most important card :p  He said Tangle Wire immediately impacts the board.  That's also not true.  You have to pass the turn before it does anything.  Those tensions weren't addressed.  

In general, these podcasts do not seem as well planned or deeply analysed as So Many Insane Plays.  I think they're going for a more chummy, "a bunch of guys" atmosphere rather than the exhaustive analysis you and Kevin offer.  Still, it's better than most of the "talk-about-what-Forsythe-said-on-twitter" podcasts that make up the rest of the Magic options.  Still worth listening to.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I'm still pretty into the 3 ball. Its a blow out turn on obviously, and its not as awful as some people think with two sphere's out. Right now I've personally been seeing a lot of 1 mana removal spells from shop, claim/chewer/sabotage. If your sitting there with a 3ball and 2 2balls and one of them gets blown up you still get 2 2balls or one of each. What that means is that the 2 drops all still cost 4, the three drops also cost at least four, the one drops still all cost three, and the moxen and other free spells either cost 2 or three. When it comes to the moxen the 3ball is where its at in this scenario, especially if smokey or wire is involved.
the way I see it in the double sphere scenario facing removal the 3 balls isn't definitely worse.

If you manage to get 3 spheres at a 3ball out, that game should be locked down as is. There is also scenarios involving EE where the diversity in cost is relevant. 

[CoffeeCup]

Are you a permanent fixture of their show now?

I'll probably be on the show frequently when I have the recording date available.  I wasn't on the first episode as my internet wasn't working at the time.

In general, these podcasts do not seem as well planned or deeply analysed as So Many Insane Plays.  I think they're going for a more chummy, "a bunch of guys" atmosphere rather than the exhaustive analysis you and Kevin offer.  

I won't speak for Nat or Geoff but this is pretty much exactly what I was going for. 

[Twaun007]

How Many Sith has Twuan Pnwertown actually slain?  

I believe the Jedi have eradicated all Sith out of Ohio.  

Interesting podcast so far, but it seems there were lots of inconsistencies.  Twaun bashed Smokestack, and then concluded it is essential :p  

Its not that I bashed Smokestack, Smokestack just works backwards in my opinion. It doesn't put any immediate pressure on your opponent, but if it survives for the turn and you're able to ramp it, it amplifies the effect of all the other cards built around it. I do think its essential to Workshop Prison strategies, it just happens to be one of the exceptions to my theory on deck construction.

He said that he wants a slow, grindy strategy, but they listed Golem as the most important card :p

Yes, I want to slowly grind the opponent out of resources then control the board. Lodestone Golem helps that by providing an additional Sphere effect. The fact that he's a great clock is icing on the cake, but when you're grinding out your opponent to control the board it shouldn't matter what your win condition is.

He said Tangle Wire immediately impacts the board.  That's also not true.  You have to pass the turn before it does anything.  Those tensions weren't addressed.  

Yes, you have to pass the turn before Tangle Wire gets its tap on. I should have used my words more carefully when describing Tangle Wire's effect on the board.

Also, this podcast would have been more entertaining from the part I've heard so far if Twuan was let loose and really showed his full personality

Most people can't handle the full Twaun007 experience. He was trying to be very professional I suspect.

Yeah, it was kind of weird because I felt like I should maintain some sort of professionalism during the podcast since people would be listening to it. I realize now that I should of tossed that mindset out the window. I'll cut lose on the next podcast when we cover the Trinisphere debate some more.  
 

Also, the Trinisphere issue wasn't really discussed in that much detail, from what I've heard so far. The argument isn't whether Trinisphere is necessary is some abstract sense, but whether it contributes to game wins in comparison to anything else that might be in that slot.  Trinisphere's ability to steal games is why it's necessary.  

I agree that the Trinisphere discussion was highly questionable. So questionable in fact, that I'm preparing to return to Vintage writing by penning a special article on the Trinisphere debate. Twaun007 may be penning a counterargument follow up piece as well.

3ball doesn't stack with Lodestone or other Sphere's, its dead after turn two, and playing it turn one can lead to disaster against an unknown opponent (dredge, any deck with a wasteland or a Workshop deck playing Metal Worker). I've seen turn one Trinisphere backfire more that I've seen it steal games.

For me, Trinisphere is not worth it due to those factors so I cut it.

[JACO]

To be fair, I don't think I've ever seen anybody really eat around Vintage cards, so there's not much chance of getting a sandwich punched around Vintage cards. These things go hand in hand.

That's not true at all. I once punched both Soly and Gil's unprotected sandwiches at the same time, while they were battling on camera streaming a live Vintage match last summer. BAOM!

[Twaun007]

I think all of us came out of the discussion thinking that we had only scratched the surface on the Shop discussion, even after dedicating half the podcast to it. I brought up a number of your concerns to Twaun after the fact, because I noticed them as well in doing the editing, and he had a lot more to say.

Whether they come up here or in a future podcast, that's Twaun's decision on how he wants to defend his statements.

Yeah, I had a 4 page outline of what I wanted to discuss about Workshops and theory which we ran through before recording(we probably should have recorded that too). After recording I noticed quit a few things which we skipped over, but yes, we did just scratch the surface. Hopefully we can expand on the subject in the future. Perhaps, in the future, we could run a continuing section called traveling down Workshop Blvd in my new Lambo or something.

To be fair, I don't think I've ever seen anybody really eat around Vintage cards, so there's not much chance of getting a sandwich punched around Vintage cards. These things go hand in hand.

That's not true at all. I once punched both Soly and Gil's unprotected sandwiches at the same time, while they were battling on camera streaming a live Vintage match last summer. BAOM!

Hahahha I remember that! It was like a two for one special that day! From what I remember the combo punch hit so hard it put a crack in the Earth's crust.

[MaximumCDawg]

I think all of us came out of the discussion thinking that we had only scratched the surface on the Shop discussion, even after dedicating half the podcast to it. I brought up a number of your concerns to Twaun after the fact, because I noticed them as well in doing the editing, and he had a lot more to say.

Whether they come up here or in a future podcast, that's Twaun's decision on how he wants to defend his statements.

Yeah, I had a 4 page outline of what I wanted to discuss about Workshops and theory which we ran through before recording(we probably should have recorded that too). After recording I noticed quit a few things which we skipped over, but yes, we did just scratch the surface. Hopefully we can expand on the subject in the future. Perhaps, in the future, we could run a continuing section called traveling down Workshop Blvd in my new Lambo or something.

To be fair, I don't think I've ever seen anybody really eat around Vintage cards, so there's not much chance of getting a sandwich punched around Vintage cards. These things go hand in hand.

That's not true at all. I once punched both Soly and Gil's unprotected sandwiches at the same time, while they were battling on camera streaming a live Vintage match last summer. BAOM!

Hahahha I remember that! It was like a two for one special that day! From what I remember the combo punch hit so hard it put a crack in the Earth's crust.

I want nothing to do with this game and disclaim any knowledge of its rules.

Anyway, Twaun, if you are only using Lodestone as another sphere, wouldn't you be better off maxing out on Thorns and Spheres first?  They cost less, after all.  In your podcast, you use Lodestone as the go-to sphere effect, the first one you want to maximize.  I gather then that, while you want to play a grindy game, you are perfectly happy to win immediately.  Your real disagreement with other Shops builds is that you want to avoid win conditions and supplementary cards that do not at least CONTRIBUTE to the grindy game, right?  Such as Welder, Metalworker, Foregmaster, etc?

[President Skroob]

To be fair, I don't think I've ever seen anybody really eat around Vintage cards, so there's not much chance of getting a sandwich punched around Vintage cards. These things go hand in hand.

That's not true at all. I once punched both Soly and Gil's unprotected sandwiches at the same time, while they were battling on camera streaming a live Vintage match last summer. BAOM!

Man, some of us certainly get to live the dream.

Must be nice.

[Smmenen]

How Many Sith has Twuan Pnwertown actually slain?  

I believe the Jedi have eradicated all Sith out of Ohio.  

Just like on Dagobah???

Interesting podcast so far, but it seems there were lots of inconsistencies.  Twaun bashed Smokestack, and then concluded it is essential :p  

Its not that I bashed Smokestack, Smokestack just works backwards in my opinion. It doesn't put any immediate pressure on your opponent, but if it survives for the turn and you're able to ramp it, it amplifies the effect of all the other cards built around it. I do think its essential to Workshop Prison strategies, it just happens to be one of the exceptions to my theory on deck construction.

He said that he wants a slow, grindy strategy, but they listed Golem as the most important card :p

Yes, I want to slowly grind the opponent out of resources then control the board. Lodestone Golem helps that by providing an additional Sphere effect. The fact that he's a great clock is icing on the cake, but when you're grinding out your opponent to control the board it shouldn't matter what your win condition is.

He said Tangle Wire immediately impacts the board.  That's also not true.  You have to pass the turn before it does anything.  Those tensions weren't addressed.  

Yes, you have to pass the turn before Tangle Wire gets its tap on. I should have used my words more carefully when describing Tangle Wire's effect on the board.

I'm not saying anything you said was necessarily wrong, but I was just pointing out that there were obvious tensions in your statements that needed to be explained, at the least. 

[median]

Sandwich punch question (now that I'm in) If I order a club sand which that comes cut in halves or quarters how does that work if I don't put down the piece I'm on.

[CoffeeCup]

Sandwich punch question (now that I'm in) If I order a club sand which that comes cut in halves or quarters how does that work if I don't put down the piece I'm on.

The section of the sandwich that is altered by you (bitten, cut, ingredients added or taken away) is now a punchable sandwich.  If you get a sandwich that is already cut in two pieces and you are only eating one half and have not touched the other half, the untouched half would not be punchable as you did nothing to alter it.  If you pick up a sandwich, alter it, and never put it down while you eat it it's never a punchable sandwich.  You can't just punch a sandwich out of someones hands.  They must alter the sandwich and set it down unguarded.  Hope that answers your question!

[CHA1N5]

How Many Sith has Twuan Pnwertown actually slain?  

I believe the Jedi have eradicated all Sith out of Ohio.  

When you see two Sith walking slowly away, the mushroom cloud that was Ohio framing them in the background, without looking back, one would hardly call them "eradicated".

[GrandpaBelcher]

How Many Sith has Twuan Pnwertown actually slain?  

I believe the Jedi have eradicated all Sith out of Ohio.  

When you see two Sith walking slowly away, the mushroom cloud that was Ohio framing them in the background, without looking back, one would hardly call them "eradicated".

I pictured you guys holding hands as well.

Anyway, there are further rules (including the FAQ and some other discussion) for Sandwich Punch here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33623.0, if you're interested in looking into the game's past a bit.

[Twaun007]

How Many Sith has Twuan Pnwertown actually slain?  

I believe the Jedi have eradicated all Sith out of Ohio.  

When you see two Sith walking slowly away, the mushroom cloud that was Ohio framing them in the background, without looking back, one would hardly call them "eradicated".

The only mushroom cloud I remember the Dark Sith Lord himself, Stephen Q. Menedian and Darth CHA1N5 making was this one.