Conspiracy - What if?

[DubDub]

At the bottom of this DailyMTG article, there's an open question as to what degeneracy would result in Constructed formats if Conspiracies were legal.

Obviously I focused on Advantageous Proclamation, thinking that if you have ten of them, lowering your starting deck size to 10, you ought to be able to win no matter what your first turn on the play.  I should say that I don't know if you're allowed to have four conspiracies of a given type when playing that format, but lets see what happens with 10-card decks.  It's sort of like solving a super-Doomsday scenario.

Would you like to win with Laboratory Maniac?

Tropical Island
Tropical Island
Fastbond
Laboratory Maniac
Gush
Gitaxian Probe
Mox Sapphire
Black Lotus
Ancestral Recall
Brainstorm

That ten card stack wins on the first turn no matter which seven you draw (and consequently no matter what three are in your library or what order).

An outline of the proof, if you want it is:
1. You'll always have for Ancestral if you have it, in which case winning becomes trivial.
2. If you don't have Ancestral, you'll still always have the for Brainstorm, which, if you put back Gitaxian Probe and Laboratory Maniac always gives you the tools to resolve Fastbond (and hence Gush), then you can Maniac and Probe for the win.
3. If you don't have Brainstorm or Ancestral you will have the resources to resolve Fastbond, Gush, Lotus and Maniac, and Gush will find you one or both of BS/Ancestral with which to win.

Or perhaps you'd like to win with Tendrils of Agony:

Tendrils of Agony
Gitaxian Probe
Gitaxian Probe
Gitaxian Probe
Gitaxian Probe
Yawgmoth's Will
Black Lotus
Lotus Petal
Silence
Pact of Negation

I think this stack offers you a lethal Tendrils no matter what, and you ought to at least have Pact or Silence protection.

Or maybe you want to win old-school?

Black Lotus
Channel
Kaervek's Torch
Gemstone Mine
Lotus Petal
Timetwister
Mana Crypt
Ancestral Recall
Mox Sapphire
Pact of Negation

I think this stack either allows you to attempt Channel-Fireball with Timetwister backup, Ancestral for whatever three cards you didn't get in your opener or gives you Pact protection for a Timetwister that will leave Timetwister in your graveyard, and Gemstone Mine/Mox Sapphire and Mana Crypt on the battlefield (tapped), which when it resolves gives you the other seven cards, enough to combo with Pact of Negation backup.

Are there any impossible opening hands you see with one of these 10 card decks?  Are there any other stacks that win every time?

[DubDub]

FYI



Also, I was thinking that a Leyline of the Void / Helm of Obedience deck ought to be possible, but I have yet to succeed in designing such a stack, mostly because to guarantee having a Leyline in your opener they have to take four of your ten slots, leaving only six slots for helm, sufficient mana, and draw/tutor to ensure consistency.  (It's too easy then to get a Quad Leyline opener that can't do anything, like 4x Leyline, Helm, Tinker, Mana Crypt, etc.)

[Wave]

Here are some piles with maximum protection that should win every time. First one is just for variance.

Hive Mind
Black Lotus
Mox Sapphire
Show and Tell
Pact of Negation
Pact of Negation
Pact of Negation
Gitaxian Probe
Gitaxian Probe
Gitaxian Probe

This one is even safe from Mindbreak Trap.

Black Lotus
Laboratory Maniac
Street Wraith
Street Wraith
Street Wraith
Street Wraith
Pact of Negation
Pact of Negation
Mindbreak Trap
Mindbreak Trap

If both players have 10 cards in the deck

Island
Ancestrall Recall
Street Wraith
Street Wraith
Street Wraith
Pact of Negation
Pact of Negation
Mindbreak Trap
Mindbreak Trap
Mindbreak Trap

[AmbivalentDuck]

Is that even necessary?

99x


+

+

Now you start the very first upkeep with 99 mana.
The format essentially boils down to Savage Summoning, a critter that can win the game (ie. Maga Traitor to Mortals/Platz), and Overloaded Counterflux, Trickbind, and Sudden Spoiling.

First player casts Spoiling. Second player floats 99 mana. First player tries to move to draw step. Second player must attempt to win or not lose on the spot and casts their own Sudden Spoiling. First player casts Savage Summoning for Teferi. Second player must attempt to win in response. They Savage Summon their own Teferi. First player Savage Summons _____ in response. Second player Savage Summons Maga in response and wins.

Fun format...not at all. There might be some strategies involving 4x Venser if you're willing to take a lot of risk.

Deck is:
2x Savage Summoning
Maga
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
Trickbind
2x Sudden Spoiling
3x Decree of Silence

For now-obvious reasons, effects like this had to banned in Constructed. When the cost is a card foregone in draft, that's one thing. When the cost of inclusion is simply how many you can afford, Black Lotus pales in comparison.

[Hrishi]

Hypothetically, would not these conspiracy cards also have the 4 card limit? Or is there a specific reason why you are considering examples with an unlimited number of them?

[DubDub]

Nice ones Wave.

Hypothetically, would not these conspiracy cards also have the 4 card limit? Or is there a specific reason why you are considering examples with an unlimited number of them?

Well, I'd guess in draft you can use as many as you draft, which is I think theoretically infinite, since there is a card that when you draft it lets (makes) you add a booster to the draft.  So long as each additional booster continues to contain the booster-adding card then you can get any number of conspiracies their second time around the table.

I thought it made for an interesting puzzle to focus on deck size, and the minimum that you can start with that's a multiple of five is 10.  (Although, now that I think about it, you could use an 11th conspiracy to get your minimum deck size down to five, and then voluntarily choose to exceed that minimum, choosing a deck of seven cards that will always be exactly your opening hand.  Oh well.)

[TVand]

Duck, I don't think your examples work, as Secrets of Paradise and Immediate Action both require you to name cards, which the tokens created by Sentinel Dispatch are not.

[boggyb]

Tokens have names by default. If the effect that creates them doesn't specify one, their name is their subtype. In this case, the tokens would be named Construct. Dark Depths is an example of a card that creates a token with a specific name.

[PhilipJFry]

Tokens have names by default. If the effect that creates them doesn't specify one, their name is their subtype. In this case, the tokens would be named Construct. Dark Depths is an example of a card that creates a token with a specific name.

Tokens are not, however, cards, which was the point of the critique.

[TVand]

Tokens have names by default. If the effect that creates them doesn't specify one, their name is their subtype. In this case, the tokens would be named Construct. Dark Depths is an example of a card that creates a token with a specific name.

Tokens are not, however, cards, which was the point of the critique.

Exactly.  Rule 201.3, in part: "A player may not choose the name of a token unless it’s also the name of a card."

[boggyb]

Oh neat -- didn't know that. Thanks!

[AmbivalentDuck]

Good catch. I guess you'd have to cast Earthcraft first. Worldknit lets a basic make any color anyways. So, you get to hardcast a hasty Emrakul and just attack twice.

[DubDub]

My third stack (Channel-Fireball) is incorrect.  If for instance Torch/Ancestral/Twister are in your library then the hand does nothing, and has no way to draw cards.  I think subbing Brainstorm in for the Pact of Negation makes it work.

[Soly]

Isn't this whole discussion pointless?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Not really. If someone ever seriously suggests legalizing conspiracies, we can point them at this thread.

To me it seems implausible that anyone would ever argue in favor of rainbow-producing basics and 40-card decks, but I'm sure someone will surprise me.

[DubDub]

To me it was just a fun puzzle.  I enjoyed thinking of ways to guarantee a win with Maniac OR Tendrils OR Channel-Fireball.

[Soly]

To me it was just a fun puzzle.  I enjoyed thinking of ways to guarantee a win with Maniac OR Tendrils OR Channel-Fireball.

If you want good puzzles, play Doomsday.

Right duck?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Most of the time you use the default pile. I'd actually say that if you like puzzles, play a "bad" reactive control-combo deck like Goblins. If there's an easy win, you'll be too tempted to take it.