Replacing Moxes with Deathrite Shaman and Noble Hierarch in Hatebears

[Guli]

This thread is a question to the community of Vintage that I would like to discuss. Not everywhere they allow proxy's in Vintage events, see Europe for example. And the premise here is that we want to build a deck without power. It is probably not avoidable that such a deck would look like a Legacy deck. However, it must be designed to survive in a Vintage metagame. Is such a thing possible at all?

I think it is, thanks to the power of Noble Hierarch and Deathrite Shaman. A lot of times BUG Fish or Humans start of a game with turn 1 Noble or DRS and they are just fine. To further improve chances of early game survival and not entirely dismiss the possibility to have 2 mana on turn 1 to get something like Thalia out, there can also be 4 Elvish Spirit Guides pre board. I like this especially against the match ups were you want to speed your deck up, you can always side them out in longer games. When playing a deck without artifact acceleration, the Elvish Spirit Guides are also very important to beat Workshop denial strategies.

The most important card in an approach like this one would be Stony Silence. You are maximizing hard on this card if you have zero cards in the deck that would be affected by this enchantment version of null rod. Would it be a good idea to play more than 4 Stony effects by playing say a couple of extra Null Rods (main or side). These are all options now. We have 8 strong, proven mana dudes and we have access to 8 null rod effects.

The hatebears are great nowdays, but people are prepared to exile and destroy your threats. I have given this a lot of thought, this problem of being simply outplayed by tempo plays like plow/bolt, counter, snapcaster, a couple moxes, walk, and so on... You try to stop the opponent from going too broken, but the opponent is prepared by positioning itself by being less combo, but more midrange control while still keeping the acceleration and draw. These are the decks like BUG and Resotration Fiction Control. When playing a pure combo deck like Oath, Doomsday or Classis TPS, the hatebears are going to be very effective, but when the combo decks become more control and aggro oriented while still keeping some element of combo around, which is what Grixis Jacecontrol does too by the way, then the hatebear decks do need another angle of attack.

The solution or answer is really not 1 or 2 given cards. It is, I believe, a mix of answers and a good balance of threats and answers on your part. One of these avenues of attack is to use Planeswalkers, because their spells might be good at killing your creatures, but when you can power out an early planeswalker, all their attention goes to that. I would even go as far as saying that it does not really matter what the planeswalker does, just by being a PW and being on the battlefield is a situation that control players can not afford to have for a long time. It is very much possible that you can ultimate your PW because you have more creatures and they can simply not touch the PW, regardless of their best effort. And even if they do, they probably invested all their early game cards, devoting themselves to get rid of the PW.

Right now I am using Domri Rade and Ajani, Caller of the Pride to annoy the hell out of control. Soon, Dack Fayden could be considered as well. Liliana (hard to cast) and Ashiok are other cheap PW's that could be considered. It is an interesting line of play when you are starting the game with turn 1 Deathrite or Noble and are casting a turn 2 3 casting cost PW that has enough loyalty to survive a Lightning Bolt.

I said that it didn't matter that much what they did, but obviously these PW's do something in the deck. Domri is used as removal and to find more threats and to, believe it or not, to ultimate when you can stick it fast enough. Ajani is really for clock, but it is great loyalty counters wise, starting with 5 off the bat. This is really not easy to get rid of when there is a constant stream of creatures hitting the battlefield and they all could get a +1/+1 bonus. Domri already suggests an extremely high amount of creatures in the deck, which means you will most likely be able to protect your PW's. With a high creature count Domri often acts as a Liliana. You get rid of their creature, while you have a leftover PW on the table.

I believe that the hatebears, pw's, stony silence and some removal spells are still not enough. This is why I think one more 'synergy' is needed. You want to make it as hard as possible for the opponent to get rid of your permanents, since you are a permanent deck. I believe Sylvan Safekeeper with Life from the Loam (which fuels Safekeeper) can help out here to provide yet another road to achieve victory. These two cards do not just give shroud and get back lands. Safekeeper does enable Deathrite, while Loam also makes Deathrite better and gives you the option to strip/waste lock your opponent. Loam is also strong against Landstill, a deck you also want to be wary about.

The upcoming (from new set) Reclamation Sage will also be a key player in this deck to compete against Workshop and Oath. It will also snipe countless moxes (over the course of many matches) that will seem harmless but will probably win the game with a Thalia on the table. You just want plenty of bears that have the ability to remove things permanently.

The motto without mox power is to try to ride it out steady. But what about the problem of early interaction? Does such a deck need Mental Misstep and/or Mindbreak Trap? When you look at my suggestion of Safekeeper, I opt for a permanent solution. Safekeeper and Loam are the slots that normally would go to Misstep, and I find it more important to secure your permanents that will most definitely stop the combo decks because those decks need to get rid of your hatebear or they can not win easily. This way more threats are used rather than to attempt a fight on the stack. Besides, Domri does not like Missteps. With all this being said, Misstep still seems like a good sideboard plan when you aren't facing Workshop. So I would add missteps in the 75. It is logical to side out Domri and bring in Mental Misstep in certain match ups.

Let me land by offering my take on a non powered 'junk' or 'hatebear' list:

1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
2 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stony Silence
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Kataki, War's Wage

3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Reclamation Sage

2 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Life from the Loam

2 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
2 Domri Rade

SB: 1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
SB: 2 Cavern of Souls
SB: 1 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
SB: 2 Aegis of the Gods
SB: 2 Mental Misstep
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 4 Yixlid Jailer

The Sigarda and Exava are key alongside the Cavern of Souls to beat landstill post board. Your deck can easily play the long game if they land an early standstill. Just don't put the Cavern into play unless you are going to cast the Angel or Exava the same turn. With Missteps, Safekeeper, and Deathrite, it seemed to be a good idea to use Jailer instead of Rest in Peace. (we also like Loam)


So how would you build your non power vintage deck? This was (in short) my reasoning and thought process with an example deck choice for the current metagame.

Cheers,
Guli

[TheWhiteDragon]

The one thing to note is that the ONLY vintage deck possible with a legacy manabase (no power) is Gx fish.  You can't build storm, dredge, shops, control, or any viable vintage deck (not even landstill) in a vintage setting without being flat out weaker and worse.  I don't think everyone wants to play Gx fish though (but I know Guli is cool with it)

[ben_berry]

Merfolk would loose some of it's upside variance without power but I've won games without ever drawing them.

[JPoJohnson]

Unpowered URx Landstill
Lands (25)
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Instants (22)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Misdirection
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Mental Misstep
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Spell Pierce
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Fact or Fiction

Enchantments (4)
4 Standstill

Artifacts (6)
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Planeswalkers (4)
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (Obviously tweak to meta)
X Grafdigger's Cage
X Ingot Chewer
X Toxic Deluge
X Yixlid Jailer/Leyline of the Void
1 Underground Sea
1 Notion Thief

Still a work in progress, but it has main deck answers to most decks and it's been a fun grinds type of deck to play. Sideboard hasn't been finalized either.

[Samoht]

^ I'd be wary of the 6 dead cards against shops in the main there.

[Guli]

The one thing to note is that the ONLY vintage deck possible with a legacy manabase (no power) is Gx fish.  You can't build storm, dredge, shops, control, or any viable vintage deck (not even landstill) in a vintage setting without being flat out weaker and worse.  I don't think everyone wants to play Gx fish though (but I know Guli is cool with it)

Not everybody has access to Power and it would be nice to have a reference / thread for those who want to try vintage without the need for power.


I like that landstill list a lot!

And I agree that Merfolk could get there, they do have access Force of Will and Cursecatcher!

^ I'd be wary of the 6 dead cards against shops in the main there.

Maybe he could go without the REB's main deck, add a steel sabotage and a spell pierce.

I wonder if a white splash, instead of red, would be better. The bolts could easily be replaced by swords to plowshares, and maybe Stony would be a better plan than Explosives. Balance also is an option.

[JPoJohnson]

^ I'd be wary of the 6 dead cards against shops in the main there.

Yeah, I know it's not ideal. I'm still trying to get feedback from peeps in order to work out a good final decklist that has game against most decks G1. I've had some difficulty getting people to want to work with unpowered Landstill though... but I do appreciate feedback. I would agree that the REB would be the first to go if I do make switches. I actually have not played the shops matchup before so my list is entirely thought-experiment against many of the decks in Vintage (it was my first stab at a list).

I do like the above recommendations. I originally had steel sabotage in there but subbed it out when I was switching around a few cards in the maindeck. The other thing I've played with a bit is Ninja of Deep Hours, Snapcaster Mage, and Packrat.

[Thiim]

ALL blue decks have at minimum 5 dead cards against MUD. but at least misstep can take Sol Ring and Mana Vault in some rare cases.

On the topic: power(mox'es) brings acceleration too your deck. But your deck(Guli) haves elvish spirit guide as instant mana instead, the problem as i see it, is that they are temporary mana source.

Mox's are besides xtra mana every turn afterwards also permanents to tangle wire or smokestack(workshop player here) I understand that they don't work well with your Stony Silence x4 and that you want maximum profit from those.

Concerning your Deathrite Shaman/Noble Hierarch plan. Of course they're great to cast on turn one especially, and also later in game. If opponent start with Chalice on 1(and maybe a sphere of resistance) your sitting with 2 lands, and 3 of these guys and maybe stony/teeg/thalia/kataki. What are you gonna do? next turn golem or smoke>gg.

Of course Chalice of the void can also be at zero, like phyrexian revoker can name both shaman-noble and mox'es.

You know, we have had some pretty close and exciting games on cockatrice, and it can go either way for sure

The deck can be played in a tournament, but are just better with power in my humble opinion.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Merfolk would loose some of it's upside variance without power but I've won games without ever drawing them.

I've won vintage games with monored burn.

That in no way makes it vintage viable in any real tournament setting.  Unpowered decks in general are just weak to a vintage field.  The exception being Gx fish where they have an alternate accelerant and can maximize the benefit of rod effects.  Even then, a pearl, emerald, lotus at the least is highly favorable to ESG.  You CAN win with an unpowered deck, but that's basically saying the Jaguars CAN win the super bowl.  I'll place my wager on Denver or New England every day of the week, though, given a full season (aka respectable sized 25+ tournament).

[Guli]

Well a turn 1 mana dude does not allow for a turn 1 2cc spell if you had a mox, but it does allow for 3 mana on turn 2 just like a mox would give you.

But don't forget that a Noble or Deathrite still work under a Stony (and so does ESG) while moxes do not.

I don't know if the gap between a mana dude instead of a mox is that big at all if we put all the arguments on the table and weigh everything out. For example, an ESG can be hardcasted and used as a target for the PW's. Kataki is also a factor to consider. The surprise value of ESG with a Pridemage on the table. The fact ESG ignores any tax effects. ESG also gives  , which could be important for Domri, Gaddock Teeg, Pridemage, Noble, Deathrite and so on... There is only mox emerald and lotus that gives green mana.

I am willing to agree that playing with power is probably better, but I am not convinced that it is as crucial as we might think since the printing of Deathrite Shaman, Thalia, Stony and Mental Misstep.

[serracollector]

i would just play combo elves with four priest four archdruid and four staff. probably four green sun and four genesis wave with the new reclamation mage maindeck with four caverns cradle  forests etc

[KingSquee]

In my recent experience playing Hatebears I have found that you MUST be able to play an impactful 2 CMC hatebear on Turn 1. This means playing a Lotus and on-color Moxes (if you have them or proxies are allowed) and Elvish Spirit Guides. If you don't have power and cannot proxy it you should run one Lotus Petal and consider either Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond. The latter may not be a bad idea if you are thinking about running Life from the Loam.

[Guli]

In my recent experience playing Hatebears I have found that you MUST be able to play an impactful 2 CMC hatebear on Turn 1. This means playing a Lotus and on-color Moxes (if you have them or proxies are allowed) and Elvish Spirit Guides. If you don't have power and cannot proxy it you should run one Lotus Petal and consider either Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond. The latter may not be a bad idea if you are thinking about running Life from the Loam.

What experience is that exactly? Could you describe it.
 
Elvish Spirit is on color.

[xouman]

@Guli: That list lacks 1 karakas :p I was going to say it's too low on mana, but then I checked again and it could do ok with 2 lands most of the time, unless you face mana denial yourself. I also miss some quick beater like Exava, or something with evasion, but it's quite hard on hate, so it's better. However I really miss confidant! What I really like is your ability to switch approaches playing "fish" decks, your opponents should have troubles trying to answer your decks.

@TheWhiteDragon: Not only Gx decks could be unpowered (budget). As said, merfolks is a very good deck, and white thrash can perform wonderfully. Btw, I'm pretty interested in a red list capable of winning tournaments

@JPoJohnson: Nice landstill, but although it's unpowered, it's not budget (featuring library and playset of drains). Seems quite solid, indeed

@serracollector: I also want to try elves again, with staff and umbral mantle (needing less elves to make it work). However my last builds lost quickness, since I tried to go diferent routes at the same time (priest/archdruid+staff/mantle; heritage+nettle+glimpse; visionary+symbiote) and specially bug "bugged" me most of the time because of confidants, snapcasters and decays.


Overall, an unpowered hate deck should play low mana cards, and punish decks greedy on mana. Stony silence is really welcome (it also hits vault, quite common again), but kataki can also get the job done. Focusing on hate cards would bring trouble to any slow start, and punish those control midrange decks-

[vaughnbros]

In my recent experience playing Hatebears I have found that you MUST be able to play an impactful 2 CMC hatebear on Turn 1. This means playing a Lotus and on-color Moxes (if you have them or proxies are allowed) and Elvish Spirit Guides. If you don't have power and cannot proxy it you should run one Lotus Petal and consider either Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond. The latter may not be a bad idea if you are thinking about running Life from the Loam.

What experience is that exactly? Could you describe it.

Are you trying to discredit him with this statement?  He's won and done well in a number of events on the east coast with hate bears recently.  I agree with him too.  When playing a deck that has no force of will its critical you have a good chance of doing something relevant on turn 1.  Playing hierarch go or deathrite go is essentially giving your opponent a free time walk.

[Guli]

I am not interested in discrediting people. I do want to know what his experiences are and what lead him to the statement he made.

I think playing turn 1 Noble or Deathrite without counter backup is just fine in the current meta. Otherwise I would not have opened a thread like this. But the condition to make it work is to have a very strong follow up on turn 2 and beyond. And, for the 4th time (and last time), there are 4 ESG's in the deck so it is possible to play out a turn 1 hatebear.

[TheWhiteDragon]

@TheWhiteDragon: Not only Gx decks could be unpowered (budget). As said, merfolks is a very good deck, and white thrash can perform wonderfully. Btw, I'm pretty interested in a red list capable of winning a tournament

I said it won games...not a tournament, which is exactly my point.  An unpowered list of anything can surely win games, but taking down a tournament vs powered decks is surely much harder than running power yourself.

I did neglect Elves! in my thoughts on unpowered lists...I do actually think elves is fine sans power.  Gx fish can do okay without power, on the back of ESG, to push out turn 1 stony or rod or thalia.  I'm hard pressed to think of anything else that isn't just flat out better with power.  Even Gx fish is better with pearl, lotus, emerald to enable more locky turn 1 plays.  A turn 1 noble, pass, is basically telling the opponent to oath/tinker turn 1 if they can...a turn 1 stony/thalia stops their turn 1 cold.  ESG can enable that, but moxen do it better.  Elves is truly the only deck that I think doesn't NEED power...but I still think land, lotus into null rod + 2 elves on turn 1 is better than forest, llanowar, pass.

Merfolk can win unpowered, but it is vastly inferior to a deck with power.  Sapphire, lotus, recall, walk are GREAT cards in merfolk.  Anyone who thinks an unpowered merfolk list is as good or better than powered is smoking something.  I'll backhand the guy that argues preordain is better than ancestral recall.

I am assuming that this thread is about making a powerless vintage deck that is as good as any powered version and can win through a tourney of powered players.  I then stand by my argument that Gx fish (and elves is kind of in that category) can hack that, but no other deck can do so without feeling the lack of umph provided by power - and sometimes losing to more broken decks as a result.

I know the topic specifically addresses hatebears, but lists (like mentioning landstill) have gone beyond that scope already).  I think it's clear that there are ample 1 drops in green (even as old as birds) that can replace moxen...but it's not replacing in a way that is superior to moxen in most cases (except elves).

If this thread is simply to provide unpowered lists not caring if it isn't on the same level as vintage power, then feel free to post the storm deck with petal, chrome mox, and darkwater eggs and call it a day.

[Guli]

So how would your version of Gx decks look like?

And second question: usually bug and bant lists run 3 mox and 1 black lotus. But they also have Force of Will and additional counterspells to keep themselves in the game. Would it be that bad to replace those 3 mox and black lotus with 4 noble (or 4 Deathrite)? The deck would lose power (literally and figuratively), but I wonder how much and how that we can measure it. If the loss of 'power' would be smaller than it seems (as far as I know this hasn't been researched) this could allow a lot of decks and not just Gx... Bug, UR Landstill, RUG Delver, UW Landstill, Bant, GWx hatebears, Naya, 5C Humans, ... they could all find solutions to the problem of workshop and early game interaction.

The goal of this thread should be (in my opinion) to talk about ways to make any unpowered deck ready to compete by finding specific solutions for a couple of common meta problems. For example, a non force of will deck should use things like ESG, Misstep and Snuff Out perhaps. Force of Will decks could use Daze, for example a classical RUG Delver deck from Legacy, would that deck really do that bad in Vintage given we change a couple of things to the deck? How much worse is the UR Delver list Stephen is promoting going to get if we replace the moxes with lotus petal and simian spirit guides?

Wouldn't it attract more people to just give a vintage event a try even if they aren't invested in Vintage (no power) and can't borrow from friends/fellow players? Isn't it all a matter of perception honestly? The perception that it can not be done without power...

[brianpk80]

Good posts, Guli.  It can't be ignored that opting for the Mana Elf/Spirit Guide plan does strengthen one's deck in one respect which is that it frees you from the dreadful Chalice 0 plays and Null Rods that can absolutely wreck your hand before you can even get into the game.  So the lack in raw "power" even if it is significant is offset at least partially by metagame realities. 

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think there are "shop" plays you can dodge getting hammered on using ESG.  But similarly, a resolved mox will help you vs spheres much more than a single ESG use.  So I think that's a wash there.  Even a turn 1 mox/silence vs a turn 1 ESG/silence leaves you with an extra perm vs tangle and smoke (which has been mentioned and isn't negligable).  I think the bigger issue is that vs anything other than shops, power is clearly better.  If we're just guaging by degrees how much worse a deck is unpowered, I don't think there's any real metric to measure that.  I also think it's fair to say if someone wants to play unpowered and be on par with every powered vintage deck, then they should play GW bears, elves...or play legacy.  BUG is worse with ESG vs moxen for sure.  So is delver and the rest.  You want a turn 1 threat (delver) plus mana to counter/draw/cantrip-filter.  You're basically a full turn slower without moxen over the course of a game.  Delver, for example, CAN win by turn 6 unpowered...but wouldn't you rather win by turn 4 or 5 with power?  An unpowered deck can perform, but it's just inferior to power...I don't know how else to say it.  Oath CAN run 4x null rods and win games and tourneys maybe.  But does it compare to orchard, mox, oath, pass on turn 1???  I think not.

[KingSquee]

What experience is that exactly? Could you describe it.

I'll be writing a report shortly. In the meantime check the TO reports for the last Games and Stuff event, February's TDG event, and be on the lookout for Calvin's MVPLS Invitational report.

Elvish Spirit is on color.

This means playing a Lotus and on-color Moxes (if you have them or proxies are allowed) and Elvish Spirit Guides.

I run 4 Elvish Spirit Guides in my build.

On the play Hierarch/DRS, go can sometimes be acceptable. If that is your plan on the draw you will likely get steamrolled. You must mulligan aggressively.

I stand by my statement that if you do not have and can't proxy power, you need to consider alternatives such as Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, and Mox Diamond. If you take my build from the Games and Stuff event and sub 4 Hierarchs for the Lotus, Emerald, Jet, and Pearl you will not do well, I assure you.

[Protoaddict]

It has long been my quest to find a vintage deck that can play without power (or Bazaar) and I just don't think it's a reality. Even decks that play tons of hate for power still run power themselves.

The closest I have gotten was a "mono white" trash deck. It ran all sorts of things to turn off moxen and lotus like Stony silence and kataki, things that make your cards dead draws or worse, and all I found was that the advantage of running them was still more than the downside. The Mono white weenies deck ran only lotus and pearl. I could see swapping out pearl for ESG and feeling like the tradeoff was balanced, but you cannot replace Lotus. Being able to turn one go Land, lotus, Thalia, Spirit of the Labrynth or Stony silence or whatever was just too damn good and game winning not to try.

The criteria for not needing power is basically to be able to do what dredge does, which is not play spells and not be blue. I think it would take a new mechanic as broken and non magic as dredge to make that a reality, and i do not see that happening anytime soon.

Even something like Elves, where ESG gives you so much advantage, i cannot see a reason not to play lotus and Emerald. They would have to print some absurd elf that you absolutely must play that said you could not cast it if you had an artifact in play for me to not want to run emerald, and that still would not prevent me from running lotus.

[Guli]

I think you guys are exagerating to some extent. I played a number of game against Brian's storm decks and the only games were it was a problem it were games were he had a turn 1 lotus and recall and other stuff (all turn 1). In these cases it wouldn't have mattered if I had a black lotus in and (i was on the draw anyway). That kind of hands are not even stopable by Force of Will or Misstep, you could just attempt to slow him down and watch yourself fall behind anyway. Now if I was on the play, I had an ESG and Stony that game. I am giving this as an example, so you guys can remember (i am sure you already know this, just like I already am aware of everything you guys posted so far) that it is often about the die roll than it is about having moxes.

For me that furter limits the disadantages of not running emerald, pearl and lotus.

Getting in a Stony or Null Rod is the main goal, it is the best play you can make for a deck without power. It stops almost every broken play in Vintage. How would a mox be better in this case other than the situational Tangle Wire. I am not even running less permanents , it is not as if moxes would be replaced by spells, they are being replaced by mana dudes.

Maybe it would be wise to add more free stuff to be able to interact if the idea is to go powerless. This would feel more safe. But would it actually make it safer? Presuming that there will most likely no turn 1 kill, I don't see a problem in investing in a Noble or DRS on turn 1 to prepare a strong turn 2. A strong turn 2 is for example a Stony + Wasteland, a Safekeeper + Thalia, Thalia + Wasteland, Pridemage (vs Oath or Shop), Kataki (against golem for example > need 3 mana), a Domri/Ajani against control...

Most decks are positioned to go deep anyway. And a deck with pridemage, kataki and that new sage with 8 mana dudes + 4 esg should be able to handle workshop. Dredge matchup is also nice with deathrite, thalia, wasteland, teeg, safekeeper+Jailer+missteps from sb.


The question is not if power is stronger by the way, the question is how to build a non powered deck for those who can't proxy or borrow power.

The 4th deck of Good Games Town Hall was an unpowered deck with 4 ESG (was that you?):

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13769&iddeck=101197

This is awsome and exactly what I am talking about! This list opted for Vial and ESG and a more aggressive land/fetch denial plan. It was still playing a playset of Revokers and 3 Kataki with the pridemage/relic-warders. A lot of removal/board control and disruption. A beautiful design.

[Grand Inquisitor]

it is often about the die roll than it is about having moxes.

If that is true, then aren't you supporting the case that moxen matter for all spells CC>1?

There's a reason they haven't printed the card, "cost: G, taps for G".  It's because this advantage is the most obviously important advantage that cards can confer.

[MTGFan]

The problem with this approach, and with Null Rod approaches historically, is that you HAVE to get your Null Rod/Stony Silence down or you're simply a far inferior deck to anything running Power.

The strength of free artifact mana is simply too great in this format to combat with just 4 cards in the main deck. If Stony Silence gets countered, or destroyed, or simply not drawn, then a deck like this which is basically a Legacy/Modern deck will inevitably be trampled by the speed and power of a powered Vintage deck.

If you want to play this type of anti-Power strategy in Vintage I feel that you have to play 4 Stony Silence and 4 Null Rod and cheap disruption like Duress, Thoughtseize, or Daze and Force. And even then, you're still fighting uphill against the best mana sources ever printed.

[Protoaddict]

I think the best example of moxen/lotus being too good to replace is Chalice of the void. COTV on 0 will stop moxen dead if you are on the play. You do not need your own acceleration to play it because it comes down for 0, and it costs you no tempo if you are not playing 0cmc spells. It is a card that sees play in a number of lists and is considered a staple.

Decks that run this card STILL run Moxen/Lotus next to it. They could easily run spirit guides to have mana acceleration if they wanted to (and potentially play COTV on 1 if they wanted to) and typically don't.

Part of this is because they can play moxen before they COTV. Part of this is because decks that run COTV often have such a high artifact count that they play artifact matters stuff like academy. Part of it is because they can accelerate into trinket mage with moxen and then into COTV.

But part of it is because in games where COTV does not come down, you want the added speed of moxen to keep up with everyone else that is doing it as well. There is nothing else that does that. And while Deathrite and Heirach are close, they really only see play because of all the other utility they bring, not as accelerants.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I believe Sylvan Safekeeper with Life from the Loam (which fuels Safekeeper) can help out

This is a perfect example of how NOT to build the deck you're talking about.  What you've described here is a 3for1 for your opponent and that provides for the fact that the hate bear you draw happens to be relevant to them.

Edit, it's worse, the hatebear you're protecting with Safekeeper both has to be relevant and they have to be responding by (1) trying to remove the threat instead of using an alternative wincon and (2) using targeted removal instead of something like Toxic Deluge or EE.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think you guys are exagerating to some extent. I played a number of game against Brian's storm decks and the only games were it was a problem it were games were he had a turn 1 lotus and recall and other stuff (all turn 1). In these cases it wouldn't have mattered if I had a black lotus in and (i was on the draw anyway). That kind of hands are not even stopable by Force of Will or Misstep, you could just attempt to slow him down and watch yourself fall behind anyway. Now if I was on the play, I had an ESG and Stony that game. I am giving this as an example, so you guys can remember (i am sure you already know this, just like I already am aware of everything you guys posted so far) that it is often about the die roll than it is about having moxes.

For me that furter limits the disadantages of not running emerald, pearl and lotus.

Getting in a Stony or Null Rod is the main goal, it is the best play you can make for a deck without power. It stops almost every broken play in Vintage. How would a mox be better in this case other than the situational Tangle Wire. I am not even running less permanents , it is not as if moxes would be replaced by spells, they are being replaced by mana dudes.

Maybe it would be wise to add more free stuff to be able to interact if the idea is to go powerless. This would feel more safe. But would it actually make it safer? Presuming that there will most likely no turn 1 kill, I don't see a problem in investing in a Noble or DRS on turn 1 to prepare a strong turn 2. A strong turn 2 is for example a Stony + Wasteland, a Safekeeper + Thalia, Thalia + Wasteland, Pridemage (vs Oath or Shop), Kataki (against golem for example > need 3 mana), a Domri/Ajani against control...

Most decks are positioned to go deep anyway. And a deck with pridemage, kataki and that new sage with 8 mana dudes + 4 esg should be able to handle workshop. Dredge matchup is also nice with deathrite, thalia, wasteland, teeg, safekeeper+Jailer+missteps from sb.


The question is not if power is stronger by the way, the question is how to build a non powered deck for those who can't proxy or borrow power.

The 4th deck of Good Games Town Hall was an unpowered deck with 4 ESG (was that you?):

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13769&iddeck=101197

This is awsome and exactly what I am talking about! This list opted for Vial and ESG and a more aggressive land/fetch denial plan. It was still playing a playset of Revokers and 3 Kataki with the pridemage/relic-warders. A lot of removal/board control and disruption. A beautiful design.

This makes no sense.  If the goal is to make an unpowered deck, then you can make ANY deck unpowered.  If you want to make an unpowered deck that is consistently better than powered decks, it can't be done.  You said the games you lost vs storm it wouldn't have mattered if you had moxen or lotus because you got blown out by lotus and ancestral...and conclude that therefore power isn't necessary.  Did you miss the part that your opponent made you irrelevant by playing 2 power cards on turn 1?  We already said a Gx deck can get by without power...but it isn't as strong.  You say this isn't about which is stronger, but you are pushing that a nonpowered list can be as good as powered and situationally better.  You also posit you will always have a rod and ESG in hand on your opener.  Not so likely.  A hand with any piece of power and no need of rod is much more likely.  Even if your opponent goes turn 1 nuts, you can return with turn 1 nuts if you run power....you can't do that running rod/silence.  Its just generally better to run your own power rather than stop the opponents power.

Again, if the goal is to just make unpowered lists, you can build legacy decks to your hearts content, but don't be deluded to thinking it will consistently perform better than powered vintage decks.

[Protoaddict]

It is very easy to come up with decklists that don't want to run all the power. It is possible to come up with decklists that are genuinely their optimal build and only run like 1-2 pieces of power. And it is fully possible to come up with 1 deck that runs no power (dredge.) But I fail to see how ANY deck that casts spells with mana genuinely does not want a lotus and the on color mox.

The decklist you posted that did well: www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13769&iddeck=101197
The first thing I think most players would do with this list would be to drop 3 spirit guides to add 2 moxen and a lotus. Not only are they typically better because they are often reusable, they are also more On-color with most of your spells than not. You cannot play a WW dude with ESG turn one, but you can with a pearl, and since that list has no GG creatures, the mana production of the card is strictly superior. The card has pros and cons on a whole, but the mana will always be more on color than ESG.

Look I would love for there to be a deck that genuinely did not want Moxen because there were actually better options for it because of how it worked. It would open up the format so much. Dredge is a great example, but it has to be such an aberrant deck to make that situation happen.

Let's theory craft here a bit. What would it take to make you genuinely not want to run at least on color moxen in your list? There would have to be a card or strategy that was so strong and warping that you just needed to play it on raw power, because it was on the same level of power as the actual power cards, but had built into it such a downside that you could not play moxen. Right now that card or cards do not exist, save for dredge, which honestly sometimes does run some power.

What if there was a tourney legal vanguard card? You could start with it in play just like vanguard cards of old, and it affected your game, every game. Let's say this card had a clause on it that stated, if you start the game with this in play, you cannot have blue cards or artifacts in your deck. That would keep me from playing power. Now what kind of bat crap crazy upside would this card have to have to have to make you play it? What if it said it taps for a mana of any color and at the start of each of your turns you draw an additional card? What if you started at 30 life?

I do think that one day moxen, Dual lands, and Lotus MAY be supplanted by more lists than just dredge, but I just don't think we have the cards yet and I think the cards we need may not come out until we get a new card type.