Hushwing Gryff

[Guli]

I think this card is an interesting side board hatebear against snapcaster/restoration and trinket mage builds. I can see myself bring this in! War priest has been taunting my Stony Silence for a while now (to Brian )

I also would not like to face this card in my legacy build with recruiters, balefull, pontiff and other value creatures... Also consider the impact of this card when playing cloudpost. Your Karakas actually works against Emrakul right? They don't get to time walk. Against Elves this also seems to have another impact. Death and Taxes has been doing good for a reason these past months, elves is more winnable, Canonist, Spirit, Aven Mindcensor, Revoker all do something and now this guy prevents their main win condition, Behemoth, to become lethal. Stoneforge becomes a 1/2 and you do need to watch out for this because you need a jitte to really finish of Elves, but then again, with Gryff the fight would still be in your favor because you run better creatures and can just block on the ground and fly over to finish. And also consider that this is probably not bad against death and taxes and other stoneforge decks!

For Vintage, this also stops Myr Battlesphere making tokens and this is pretty important because a 4/7 is not that big of a deal. Clique loses its powerful trigger, and I believe the way this is worded, this also should stop dragon breath? Demon Oath loses a lot of functionality too. Duplicant and Sundering Titan don't do what they do best agains this. Sower of Temptation loses its purpose,

Seems to me that this flash flyer has some applications against a lot of decks and that it is designed to stop value and makes creatures just vanilla.


My assessment: Seems narrow but has in my opinion more applications on a strategic level than one might expect (since it flashes in it also has a surprise value which is tactical and can be used as a counter). Is an instant speed Torpor Orb with a 2/1 body viable? It might be!

[serracollector]

An aven mindcensor that stop cip abilities. i would def say it has vintage potential. stopping snap trinket angel clique a plethora of tinker bots as well as stoneforge is great. time to pull out my hunted horrors  

[xouman]

Just one problem: a 2W seems well suited to be played in a deck with trinkets, snapcasters and restoration angels itself :p Very nice card, maybe in a UW landstill?

[Phele]

Dreadnoughts anyone? This has the added flying body while Topor Orb always was too focused on Nought. Could see some sort of fish build with this and Stifles.

[serracollector]

Turn one lotus to hushwing tap swamp dark ritual hunted horror plus dreadnaught turn two swing ftw

[AmbivalentDuck]

What's sort of interesting is that one of the best ways to grab Dreadnought is with Trinket Mage. So...this is perfectly awful in many ways.

[Guli]

Thinking about a combo with Gryff huh guys? You nasty boys

Reminds me of Aven Mindcensor + Maralen of the Mornsong.


I think Gryff is better suited to cut off value that certain decks are trying to create. You could use 4x Stifle and 4x Dreadnought but I don't know if I want to be at that spot.

[fsecco]

It doesn't stop Emrakul's time walk like you said...

[Guli]

It doesn't stop Emrakul's time walk like you said...

Yea thanks for the input, the trigger is not when it enters but when it is cast. But the Primeval Titan is in fact an etb trigger and pretty important.

My most important argument is being able to sideboard Gryff in against a deck like this:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14013&iddeck=103103

[gkraigher]

As a sideboard card against angels, it makes sense.  It also stops duplicant in MUD.  Does this also stop the three counters being placed on Triskelion when it enters play, or is that not a trigger?

I think it has a very minor role in white hate bears, but will end up seeing some play in legacy and a lot of play in modern.  Building a deck around it and phyrexian dreadnought seems a lot more far fetched.  I'm not convinced dreadnought is good in vintage even if you got it in play consistently on turn 2.  There are so many strong cards like steel sabatoge, swords to plowshares, path to exile, jace, hurkyl's recall, ingot chewer, and duplicant that make the card easily 2 for 1ed if you also invested a stifle into it.  In the case of Grfyy, 1 for 1ed and you have a 2/1 flier in play.  I guess this guy does partially negate the bounce cards, but it also opens you up to losing your dreadnought to lightning bolt.  All I have to do is bolt Gryff while Dreadnought is on the stack.  

[Protoaddict]

Mono White Stax / Thalia builds probabaly have a home for this. Evasion is pretty big for that deck and it can surprise block a delver if need be.

My guess is sideboard only in a few lists but it's really not a bad card at all. There is no escape clause or chance of failure like mindcensor or Leonin arbiter either which is nice.

[Wagner]

This does not stop Triskelion as it's not a trigger.

Also, second Hippogriff! Ironically, the other Hippogriff has a come into play ability...

[ben_berry]

So if all the new hate cards are tacked on white creatures that means you'll have to run *w in order to access any of the new sideboard cards.

[Saya]

Ok let us assume that we play this gryff in certain decks.Then won't you replace it with Aven Mind censor?Or you run 4 copies of aven already?

[Guli]

Depends obviously.

If you build a deck and you notice your blue angel match up is already strong due to some cards, then you might not feel the need to play Hush (better label). But I can tell you this, Aven Mindcensor does almost nothing against blue angels. They don't have tutors, maybe 5-6 fetchlands. And Stoneforge is not a typical card i think but ok if they start using it, then Aven does have a role, however in this case Hush seems to do a better job than Aven in this match up.

I can see Hush coming in to protect your board position. You can survive against a couple of removal, but not against Snapcaster and Stoneforge backed up with Restoration angel. This is actually one of the weaker match ups for Hatebear decks because only some of your hatebears are relevant and this for a short amount of time. The valuebears are more flexible and capable of outplaying hatebears in the mid game. Hush can even up the odds. What it comes down to is that it will probably save your key permanents from equipment, additional plows and even protect your second copy of Stony Silence when they want to reuse that disenchant with snapcaster (or war priest). I am giving in game examples, things that I have experienced when I played against blue angels. Hush is the best hatebear you can have against them.

There is also a trend towards more answer for TNN and Stoneforge. Dack is excellent against stoneforge, Council can take care of TNN, Hush prevents the search of Stoneforge...

[Chubby Rain]

Since people are comparing this to Aven Mindcensor, I think it's important to highlight the differences (and by that, I don't mean the effect):

1) Aven Mindcensor is a Wizard, which is a well supported tribe in vintage.
2) It's effect only affects the opponent and does not constrain deck building options. You can still run Trinket Mages and Stoneforge Mystics.
3) It has broad applications against many decks but in particular shines against broken storm decks maximizing tutors by simultaneous providing a clock and disruption.

In the matchups where Hushwing Gryff's effect is good i.e Blue Angels, the 2/1 body is quite awkward. While it nullifies Trinket Mage's and Snapcaster Mage's abilities, it cannot block them profitably. It trades with Vendilion Clique but I feel if you are playing this card, you want it to stay in play to nullify future creatures. And it does not address Restoration Angel's body or flash, which trumps Huffwing Gryff and many of the other creatures in the Hatebear deck. That's my evaluation of the card for Vintage. In Modern, the card is quite excellent.

[vaughnbros]

Agreed with Matt.  This card isn't very good in vintage.  It fails to do anything at all against shops, combo, landstill, humans, and most other decks in the format since almost all their creatures in vintage evade the ability, whereas mindcensor can blow out a forgemaster, fetch lands, tutors, ect.  The only match up where its better than mindcensor is blue angels, but it does nothing against their creatures bodies so you would probably be better served with a larger flier that can win in combat.

Conclusion, mindcensor sees limited play and this is pretty much just a worse hatebear.  Finding a way to abuse it's ability for yourself is probably the only way it's worth playing.

[Guli]

Your conclusion is odd. Aven Mindcensor does not have to see massive amounts of play to be good. Hush doesn't have to see a lot play either. This is not about Aven Mindcensor, there is no need to compare two totally different cards.

From my perspective this is about tools, Hush is another screwdriver I might use if I see the need for it. It obviously has vintage applications.

I don't really see the point of constantly bringing up the argument of how many top 8's a card will get when we are discussing whether it can be deployed in a certain match up. This is being done with almost every card.

I think a card like Hush is unique enough to be analyzed on its own. The card only has to stop 1 Snapcaster on a critical moment to win a game. I hope you realize that.

[Chubby Rain]

I think a card like Hush is unique enough to be analyzed on its own. The card only has to stop 1 Snapcaster on a critical moment to win a game. I hope you realize that.

I never denied that the card could potentially win games. I played Thassa at Elmira a few weeks ago to a second place finish and she definitely contributed to a few wins. My impression of Thassa, however, was that alternatives were probably better in the Uw control deck I was running and that this wasn't the right shell for her. My argument against Hush is more or less the same -- that the ultimate impact of the card does not outweigh the opportunity cost of playing other cards and the constraints on deck construction.

[vaughnbros]

Your conclusion is odd. Aven Mindcensor does not have to see massive amounts of play to be good. Hush doesn't have to see a lot play either. This is not about Aven Mindcensor, there is no need to compare two totally different cards.

They are very similar if you are using them as a hate bear.  Both cost 2W for a 2/1 flying flash that has a static ability.  They both also hit trinket mage, and blue mirrors the hardest.  The difference lies in that mindcensor is 1 sided, has impact on far more cards that are played, and can create much bigger blowouts on cards, like tinker and forgemaster.  This card can really only shut off half of the value generated by some creatures so it's not really even close to the same power level.

As I stated the place where this card could shine is by playing it with creatures that have negative comes into play effects.

[Guli]

There are a lot card that have overlapping effects though, but we don't really compare them either. Mindcensor targets the tutoring capabilities of your opponent while Hush is targeting triggers. Yea some triggers are about tutoring I agree, but there are a lot of triggers that aren't about tutoring and would be interesting to disrupt (another angle of attack is nice).

[MTGFan]

In Vintage, this is kind of meh, but man, this has some serious potential in Legacy.

[Protoaddict]

There are a lot card that have overlapping effects though

I think this is key. I know with Mono white, the key to that is to try to have enough hate maindeck for pretty much any matchup, and almost every piece of hate in that list functions in multiple places.

Rest in peace hoses dredge
Graffdiggers cage also hoses dredge not as well but hits tinker
Leonin Arbiter hits tinker but also fetches
ETC

I think if anything this is just another piece of the puzzle for that list, where they are sorta making their "hate matrix" and trying to fill holes. Maybe it shows up as a 1 of in place of a mindsensor, and that seems like whatever, but maybe that swap now shores up the decks hate so that it is not weak against snapcaster and not overdoing it against lands, or something like that.

Just because of that alone, this to me is an obviously playable card. I mean heres some cards it hits now that were not hit before by a lot of the hate in the deck or by mindsensor:

Duplicant (i think)
Flame-kin Zealot
Vendilion Clique
Snapcaster Mage
Leonin Relic-Warder
Rune-Scarred Demon

[Guli]

Great post Protoaddict.

Doesn't this also stop all the etb from Pod decks, and the Splinter Twin combo (also Restoration/KiKi).

Look, that Snapcaster may be a 2 or 3 off in some blue decks but it will hit the board at some point. Thalia/Arbiter and Hush might be better than Thalia/Arbiter and Aven in white trash/death and taxes lists in various formats. I am aware that Hush might hit your own Stoneforge, but I don't know if d&t really needs to run Stoneforge card anyway. I recently saw a list with Leonin Arbiter instead of 4 SFM in legacy... And it did well. The problem is probably Flickerwisp, which is important too. But since d&t is a tier deck, this might actually be good for the player who wants to use Hush. You can actually hate out d&t with Hush while still keep the mana denial elements of d&t in your own variant.

To paraphrase you:

Hush is graveyard hate against Snapcaster.

Hush is tutor hate against Stoneforge, Imperial Recruiter, ...

Hush is combo hate against Kiki and others.

Hush protects your hand against Clique.


Seems to me this card has a surprisingly flexible and meaningful effect and can be a bomb in the right format/metagame. I think these etb triggers that control decks, value decks and combo decks use, are very important for them to function.

Imagine this, they have bolted or plowed or both and you still have pushed in threats. This is the time they need that Snapcaster badly to stabilize the game. Now you can Vial in Ooze IF you have a Vial@2 and green mana, but Hush seems to be positioned even better than because it does not require another card to get the job done. Hush hoses Snapcaster in the same way Notion Thief hoses Jace.

[brianpk80]

There are a lot of good posts here.  Hosing the value half of Snapcaster, Trinket, and Angel is a bit narrow to warrant slots at the moment but having Torpor Orb as a Flash Flying 2/1 is a lot of value in a single card, especially since the Flash is so synergic with its effect, much like Aven and Notion Thief.  I would say that I'm glad the card exists and it's something that may one day have broader Vintage applicability if, for instance, years down the line the Tinker/Oath target du jour has some sort of massively overpowered ETB trigger(s) and there's a resurgence of Dragon.   

[Guli]

I mean look at the flavor text and tell me this card isn't wonderful:


"An overwhelming sense of calm accompanies the gryffs that wheel above the roofs of Gavony."