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Author Topic: UBR - WelderStorm  (Read 3010 times)
Mike Kidney
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« on: October 24, 2015, 04:59:33 am »

Hi there i just put a list together and wanted to share this with you.
Since i started to play vintage not too long ago i bet there is much you can tell me about this:

//Creatures
2 Goblin Welder
2 Notion Thief
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Wurmcoil Engine

//Planeswalker
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
2 Dack Fayden
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy

//Counterpackage
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
1 Mana Drain
1 Flusterstorm
1 Misdirection

//Card Draw / Tutor
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Memory Jar

//Spells
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Hurkyl's Recall

//Artifacts
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

//Mana Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault

//Lands:
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Island

Have a nice Weekend!
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thecrav
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Seems good.


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« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2015, 09:36:45 pm »

Hi there i just put a list together and wanted to share this with you.
Since i started to play vintage not too long ago i bet there is much you can tell me about this:

Is this your deck that you want us to talk about or is this a deck you found that you have questions about?

Purpose:  Bandwidth fees are expensive and no one likes sifting through dozens of posts to find one that is worthwhile.  Specific examples of posts that violate this rule include, but are not limited to:

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2.  Posts which include decklists alone; card choices should be addressed and explained in order for a post to be useful.

Okay, now actually talking about the deck:

I love the idea of "WelderStorm" but if such a thing exists, I don't think this is it.

This looks to me like a Steel City Vault deck that has a Tendrils Dropped in it. How often are you casting Tenrdils for lethal? It seems like it would be hard to get the mass of spells required in one turn for Tenrdils to kill in the early or mid game - like Tendrils can only actually kill when your opponent has already fetched and Crypt'd themselves a bunch.
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Instead of tearing things down we should calmly explain our opinions.
Khahan
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« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2015, 09:01:17 am »

Hi there i just put a list together and wanted to share this with you.
Since i started to play vintage not too long ago i bet there is much you can tell me about this:

Is this your deck that you want us to talk about or is this a deck you found that you have questions about?

Purpose:  Bandwidth fees are expensive and no one likes sifting through dozens of posts to find one that is worthwhile.  Specific examples of posts that violate this rule include, but are not limited to:

...

2.  Posts which include decklists alone; card choices should be addressed and explained in order for a post to be useful.

Okay, now actually talking about the deck:

I love the idea of "WelderStorm" but if such a thing exists, I don't think this is it.

This looks to me like a Steel City Vault deck that has a Tendrils Dropped in it. How often are you casting Tenrdils for lethal? It seems like it would be hard to get the mass of spells required in one turn for Tenrdils to kill in the early or mid game - like Tendrils can only actually kill when your opponent has already fetched and Crypt'd themselves a bunch.

It does exist. I used pilot a slaver/storm combo deck in the mid 2000's.   At that time there was a welder deck that used mindslaver as a win condition with tinker/colossus as a back up. There was also a storm deck with many, many similar cards.  I combined the two into slaverstorm and piloted it in the northeast with a decent amount of success. When I got back into the game a few weeks ago the first thing I did was touch up the deck and load it into cockatrice.   If I had to describe the deck now in a word I would use 'inadequate.' 

At its heart it was a blue control shell that relied on a 1 casting cost creature. That key spell is now vulnerable to mental misstep. The best way to counteract that is to run mental misstep yourself.  But I had to cut something. Playtesting revealed drain to be the weak link in the counter suite. But if I kept drain I had to turn elsewhere. Well that left stuff like slaver, memory jar - higher cost artifacts that were welder targets and win conditions to cut. Without drain they were a lot more difficult. But if I cut them, there really was not as much reason to run drain.  So to compete against blue with flusterstorm, mindbreak traps and mental missteps - the fundamentals of the deck weakened significantly.  Compare this to when it used to match up quite well against other blue decks because it had the same card draw engine, the same counter suite but could also run REB's and had a slightly higher threat density. So it controlled the counter wars.

Against shop - well its a blue deck. It loses game one.  It used to be much improved in games 2 and 3 but some of the newer cards like lodestone and revoker really hurt the core of this deck. It puts a fast clock and slows down its mana development which equals doom.

Against oath - oath was a die roll. Getting a slaver off early I could wreck oath's hand and leave them in top deck mode.  If oath stalled out it could be devastated by a better control package. But if oath went off..it went off.   But now - see point 1 against other blue decks.  Same issue with the counterspells.

Against dredge - game 1 could go either way in the past and a simple leyline of the void and 1 tormod's crypt from side was usually enough to wreck all but the best of opening hands for dredge.  Now I kind of suspect its the same.


I think a welder storm deck can still work and I haven't given up on it. In fact last night I was working on it some more and think I may have found something to counteract what has really killed this deck.  Hurt it even more than mental misstep vs welder and flusterstorm or mindbreak trap vs tendrils. And that is Dack Fayden.  Yes, I have an answer to dack aside from just running dack himself. But I'm not sure if that answer is good enough against the rest of the field. Dack can just shut this deck down by himself.
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Mike Kidney
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« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2015, 04:00:09 pm »

I'm glad to hear that such a deck is not completly new.
Sorry for beeing not to specific. I put the list together and tested it just a bit i also had the feeling that tendrils are most likely to go out...
Basically the idea was "what to do with thirst for knowledge" since it is no longer restricted.
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Khahan
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« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2015, 08:57:46 pm »

Here's what I've come up with:

Artifact (13):
1x black lotus
1x mana crypt
1x mana vault
1x memory jar
1x mindslaver
1x mox emerald
1x mox jet
1x mox pearl
1x mox ruby
1x mox sapphire
1x sol ring
1x time vault
1x voltaic key

creatures (4)
3x goblin welder
1x inkwell leviathan

Instant (18)
1x ancestral recall
1x brainstorm
1x flusterstorm
4x force of will
2x mana drain
3x mental misstep
1x pyroblast
1x red elemental blast
4x thirst for knowledge

Land (15)
1x Cavern of Souls
2x flooded strand
2x polluted delta
1x Tolarian Academy
3x underground sea
4x volcanic island
1x boseiju, who shelters all
1x snow-covered island

Planeswalker (2)
2x Dack Fayden

Sorcery (8):
1x Demonic Tutor
3x Preordain
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Time Walk
1x Tinker
1x Yawgmoth's Will

Artifacts:
The mana source artifacts are pretty standard and pretty self-explanatory. You want to get a good solid mana base out on the floor.  Time vault/voltaic key is also self explanatory. With this deck having dack and thirst along with a standard draw set getting to them or getting them in the graveyard shouldn't be too difficult. Slaver and jar are threats. Jar gives the deck the ability to reload its hand and have some explosiveness. Slaver is a win condition. Both are easily abused with goblin welder and castable with mana drain mana.

Creatures:
Goblin welder - its what the deck is built around.  He can play tricks with lotus for acceleration. Control the opponents artifact supply. Or he can weld in slaver, jar or leviathan.
Inkwell Leviathan is something I've been toying with and here's what I like about him:
7/11 body. He can block on the ground creatures all day long. There are very few (emrakul or blightsteel) that roll over him. He kills any and every creature in shops, in blue/white variants. Basically anything other than certain oath targets.
Islandwalk - against any T1 but shops and dredge and he's unblockable.
Shroud - dodges Dack, swords, REB/pryoblast and targeted artifact hate like ingot chewer. Even getting him hit with hurkyl's recall is the end of the world as he can be pitched to dack or thirst
Artifact - I can pitch him to Dack or Thirst and weld him into play rather than cast him. While the reshuffle ability of staples like BSC and the old DSC have some benefits - this was not one of them.

This is what I dont like him about him:
7 power without haste gives my opponent 3 turns at the minimum after he comes into play. That's a rather long clock for type 1.  That's for 4 things to like and 1 thing not to like. But its much more even than that since that one thing is a pretty big one. BSC is a 1 turn clock. Emrakul is effectively a 1 turn clock. Grisel is a 2-3 turn clock but also 14 cards in hand. Dromoka is a 4 turn clock but has other benefits which impact the game state. 

Instants:
13 counter spells is a heavy control suite. REB/Pyro is more flexible for counter wars than mental misstep but more difficult to cast needing an active mana source.  They also control opposing Dacks and Jaces.  Mana drains give some mind and late game oomph.  If its not a counterspell its card draw to restock my hand.

Sorceries:
Like instants this is a pretty standard set of sorceries.  Its a win condition or hand fixer (tutor/preordain).  Not messing around with spells.

Planeswalkers:
Dack fits the mana base and helps cycle thru the deck and fill the graveyard for yawg will/tendrils or pulling artifacts in for welder shenanigans.   In a RUB deck, especially one meant to abuse the graveyard, he is just to natural of a fit.

Lands:
Lands are pretty straight forward except for 2 curious choices. There are only 2 cards I'd cast with cavern of souls. But the hate against 1 drops is so strong in T1 I feel its worth testing out.   The other is Boseiju. This deck REALLY wants to resolve tinker, thirst, yawg's will and tendrils.  But especially a tinker and any and every thirsts that are drawn.  Theoretically this allows me to be more aggressive in counter wars shutting down my opponents plan and executing my own. But its just a singleton.  Both of these lands are new additions to the list and theory only with no play testing to back up keeping them. I have a feeling I can get by with one or the other but  not both and if thats the case I'd think Boseiju would be it.  But its also just as likely they both out, maybe for a stripmine/crucible or waste/strip  or strip/color producer.


Cards that have been cut:
draw:
FoF/Gifts: I've tried these in every incarnation of this deck and the one that playtests the best are the ones without either.  They are inferior to thirst for what this deck wants to do and too costly on their own.  Both also force the inclusion of some other cards that I just dont have room for in case yawg/tendrils gets dumped into the graveyard.

2nd copy of flusterstorm: This deck runs tons of counters as it is and I had tried running 2 but in fixing the mana base to make it more reliable I had to cut somewhere.  The ReB's have come in handy vs opposing dacks and in the landstill match up. The forces are a big duh and mental misstep just doesn't seem as strong if there are only 2 and less likely to get. Fluster is a great card but was the only one left to cut. This deck can make use of mana drain and that's already down to 2.

thoughtseize: there just isn't room for control but I really like the idea of a turn 1 proactive control of my opponents hand. I just can't fit it in.

painful truths: black card draw. My initial thoughts on this card were that its not good enough for T1 but its close. I saw it in action a few times at EE3 and must say I was impressed. However its just not good enough for this deck.  Like thoughtseize, what do you cut for it?

Sideboard I've been working on now that I've seen some tournament action. Hurkyl's/ingot chewer for shops, leylines for dredge, echoing truth for token decks and maybe some disenchant effects for my opponents graveyard hate. This deck matches up well against other blue shells so far so I wouldn't want to really change it - just adapt it to meet the changes they bring from s/b.
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dangerlinto
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« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2015, 07:01:01 am »

Inkwell Leviathan is something I've been toying with and here's what I like about him:
7/11 body. He can block on the ground creatures all day long. There are very few (emrakul or blightsteel) that roll over him. He kills any and every creature in shops, in blue/white variants. Basically anything other than certain oath targets.
Islandwalk - against any T1 but shops and dredge and he's unblockable.
Shroud - dodges Dack, swords, REB/pryoblast and targeted artifact hate like ingot chewer. Even getting him hit with hurkyl's recall is the end of the world as he can be pitched to dack or thirst
Artifact - I can pitch him to Dack or Thirst and weld him into play rather than cast him. While the reshuffle ability of staples like BSC and the old DSC have some benefits - this was not one of them.

This is what I dont like him about him:
7 power without haste gives my opponent 3 turns at the minimum after he comes into play. That's a rather long clock for type 1.  That's for 4 things to like and 1 thing not to like. But its much more even than that since that one thing is a pretty big one. BSC is a 1 turn clock. Emrakul is effectively a 1 turn clock. Grisel is a 2-3 turn clock but also 14 cards in hand. Dromoka is a 4 turn clock but has other benefits which impact the game state.  

I think Myr Battlesphere and Sphinx of the Steel Wind are probably better targets than Inkwell.  The only advantage Inkwell has over these two is immunity to StP.  I'm not really worried about my opponent's targeted artifact hate (other than exiling) when I have Goblin Welder.  It's just coming right back, and in Battlesphere's case, even stronger.  Battlesphere has the strong possibility of being hardcasted in a meaningful turn when powered by a drain as well.
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Khahan
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« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2015, 07:21:00 am »

Inkwell Leviathan is something I've been toying with and here's what I like about him:
7/11 body. He can block on the ground creatures all day long. There are very few (emrakul or blightsteel) that roll over him. He kills any and every creature in shops, in blue/white variants. Basically anything other than certain oath targets.
Islandwalk - against any T1 but shops and dredge and he's unblockable.
Shroud - dodges Dack, swords, REB/pryoblast and targeted artifact hate like ingot chewer. Even getting him hit with hurkyl's recall is the end of the world as he can be pitched to dack or thirst
Artifact - I can pitch him to Dack or Thirst and weld him into play rather than cast him. While the reshuffle ability of staples like BSC and the old DSC have some benefits - this was not one of them.

This is what I dont like him about him:
7 power without haste gives my opponent 3 turns at the minimum after he comes into play. That's a rather long clock for type 1.  That's for 4 things to like and 1 thing not to like. But its much more even than that since that one thing is a pretty big one. BSC is a 1 turn clock. Emrakul is effectively a 1 turn clock. Grisel is a 2-3 turn clock but also 14 cards in hand. Dromoka is a 4 turn clock but has other benefits which impact the game state.  

I think Myr Battlesphere and Sphinx of the Steel Wind are probably better targets than Inkwell.  The only advantage Inkwell has over these two is immunity to StP.  I'm not really worried about my opponent's targeted artifact hate (other than exiling) when I have Goblin Welder.  It's just coming right back, and in Battlesphere's case, even stronger.  Battlesphere has the strong possibility of being hardcasted in a meaningful turn when powered by a drain as well.

Thanks for the tip. Thats one of the 'newer' cards to me that I've seen around a bit but just haven't really encountered to know about or give thought to. 
Also I'd like to fit in a snapcaster mage or two in case yawg will gets dropped in the yard.
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