Howl of the Horde

[TheWhiteDragon]

This is where I disagree.  It would have to change pretty tremendously from where it is at right now to accommodate this card, not just a few "tweaks".  You'd need more mana sources to reliably get to 4 mana in order to howl anything other than gush.  You'd probably have to cut the current top of the curve, Dack fayden, which means you are significantly worse game 1 against shops and have to change your entire sideboard.  To add fastbond back in you first of all have to be playing green, there are quite a few delver variants that don't now.  To reliably get the fastbond you'd probably want to play black for tutors...  At this point you are playing some weird delver+gush control hybrid.  By playing this card it has a massive ripple effect on the rest of your list.

That's perfectly fine.  I think the list might actually look more like gushbond-tendrils with 4 colors now that I think of it...but pyro, delver, and tarm and swapping out some spells...adding in 2 of this new card.

[serracollector]

I have to agree with the people for this card. There are several three and four color variants doing well atm. Running a couple of dr shamans and abrupt decays and ancient grudge along side two of these main deck could lead to large blow outs along side the obv draw cards or bolts. A more permanent based control versus a control of the stack variant is not necessarily a worse thing.

[Protoaddict]

The problem with this card is it is a combo card in non combo decks. It does NOTHING on its own, so it's a dead top deck, and I think it is likely a dead card without bodies on the board even if it can be cast as a 3 mana fork. It is also terrible in multiple, so chances are your going to play 1-2 copies to reduce that chance, which adds to the variance of the card.

Delver does not play dead cards right now as far as I can tell. There are very few if any cards in the list that simply do nothing on their own, maybe skullclamp in some odd decks, and most cards do a lot. If you ever get into topdeck mode in a mirror match, this is probably not as good as drawing a land.

Is a high variance upside, possibly win-more, really worth risking the downside of this card in delver?  Maybe this thing does have potential in some other list. I know for sure legacy burn needs to seriously look at this, but I don't see vintage delver swinging this.

[TheWhiteDragon]

The problem with this card is it is a combo card in non combo decks. It does NOTHING on its own, so it's a dead top deck, and I think it is likely a dead card without bodies on the board even if it can be cast as a 3 mana fork. It is also terrible in multiple, so chances are your going to play 1-2 copies to reduce that chance, which adds to the variance of the card.

Delver does not play dead cards right now as far as I can tell. There are very few if any cards in the list that simply do nothing on their own, maybe skullclamp in some odd decks, and most cards do a lot. If you ever get into topdeck mode in a mirror match, this is probably not as good as drawing a land.

Is a high variance upside, possibly win-more, really worth risking the downside of this card in delver?  Maybe this thing does have potential in some other list. I know for sure legacy burn needs to seriously look at this, but I don't see vintage delver swinging this.

I think vintage delverish decks could benefit most as they alone have ancestral and time walk, which are two prime targets for this.  As I said, a list would need tweaking, but just fitting in 2 of these could lead to some huge swings.  6 cards off gush for 3, 9 cards off recall for 4, 9 damage off bolt...and you're still running snaps and such too, so you just get ridiculous CA.

[Protoaddict]

I'm just trying to figure out risk rewards with this thing. The risk is obvious in that it's a telegraphed card, another non blue in the deck, dead on it's own, and warps/changes your build to accommodate it, when it itself is probably not more than a 1 of, maybe a 2 of.

So knowing that, how much benefit do you get from it on average, and how much of the benefit is win more in an average situation?

Yes you can spend 4 mana and draw 9 cards if you have recall, but I would guess that in delver a great many times you would probably rather have 3 cards and open mana to counter things.

Likewise forking a gush will net you a ton of cards with no mana to play them. Wheel of fortune can do the same thing without any set up a good number of matches, and that sees no play in delver.

Living the dream is timewalk, because if you pull that off you will all but certainly win the game with that 3 power flyer you just swung with. But that is 5 mana and no mana for counters to protect it. How often does your delver deck get to 6 mana?

[Bibendum]

So Bolt is 4 mana 9 damage, assume you swung with delver thats 12. Gush is now a Plus 4 not counting the lands. Any Draw spell is now a recall + and you have the ability to live the dream with Recall and Walk. Do I think its an auto 4 of? Hell no. Do I think i will 100% test 1-2 for a bit? Of course.

[Protoaddict]

Bolt is not 4 mana 9 damage. Bolt is now 2 cards, 4 mana, 9 damage and a creature in play. When you do the math you start to realize that your damage per mana investment is around shock levels. For 2 cards and 4 mana i feel like you can get similar damage without the investment.

Likewise Gush is 6 cards but now costs 2 of them and mana that you cannot use that turn.

This card I think could shine in late games against decks that need something to break stalemates, but Delver is not that deck, it does not want to have a late game.

[Bibendum]

If you are playing delver, with pyromancers, delvers ect and you don't have a creature in play, you're doing it wrong. Gush pays for 2/3rd of the cost of this card. so you are telling me float 2 off gush fill your entire hand for two isnt worth it? Delver does not want a late game, you are absolutely right, but its going to happen having a powerful card to push you over the edge is huge. 4 mana 2 cards for 9 damage is far better then you make is sound as its 9 damage dealt among three targets. I myself am also on 4 color delver which means the potential with DRS to put you into this a turn earlier is amazing and copying something like abrupt decay can just end the game. Look as I said, its not something I plan to run 4 of but being so dismissive of a card with a huge upside is very short sighted to me.

[Protoaddict]

Gush does not pay for this card. You have to have a 3rd land/Mana source in play to cast howl in the first place.

So if you want to gush turn 3, you need 3 mana in play first, then you need to attack, then howl, then gush. Unless your mana was a mox, after the gush resolved you already played your landdrop, so you likely have 9+ cards in hand and no way to cast them, meaning your out on tempo in some instance and your going to lose some of the CA you just gained.

This is a perfect example of how it warps decks. In the past the gush play could have happened on 2 lands, left you with mana open or Dack in play, now it takes the whole of the turn.

[vaughnbros]

Look as I said, its not something I plan to run 4 of but being so dismissive of a card with a huge upside is very short sighted to me.

Ignoring the huge downsides of it isn't much different though.  I just feel you are getting much better expected value out of another card in this slot. 

I'm wondering now if in delver browbeat isn't just better in this slot than this new card?  Browbeat is always going to either give you 3 cards of 5 damage for 3 mana.  Sure you don't get to choose, but you don't really with this card either as there is no guarantee you have bolt/gush when you want it.  Browbeat does not require any set up and isn't bad in multiples.

As an alternative brimstone volley and psionic blast are both powerful burn spells at the 3 slot if you are looking for a reliable high damage spell.  And Dack fayden has been shown to be a reliable card advantage engine in delver at the 3 slot.

[JarofFortune]

Delver is not a straight Aggro deck. It does not want to pay 3 mana for what will usually be 5 damage.