The deck that I continue to play.

[Robert the Swordsman]

The deck I was inspired to build on my own, which has since then been dubbed "Politics", has done well in the past. I came up with it on the way back from a tournament in Rhode Island some time in June, and built it up soon after.

I took this up to Waterbury and was quite confident in its abilities. In round one, I played against Welder Mud. After losing the first game, I sideboarded in three Hurkyl's Recall, two Seal of Cleansing, and two Swords to Plowshares and I took the next two games. Awesome, I thought, I'm off to a good start.

In the next three rounds, I'd proceed to lose 0-2 to three aggro decks (which I thought was my absolute best matchup), the first was Oshawa, the second was mono-red Sligh, and the third was Green Power Ranger. Oshawa was blindingly fast, Sligh's Pyrostatic Pillars were brutal (I thought it said "converted mana cost of two or less", not "three") and GPR's Null Rods caused a problem.

In any case, here is the current list, which will be followed with some card choice explanations.

Name: Politics

Artifact: (16)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Zuran Orb
2 Ivory Tower
3 Winter Orb
3 Tangle Wire

Blue: (14)
4 Trade Routes
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gush

White: (7)
4 Land Tax
1 Balance
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Swords to Plowshares

Black: (3)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 The Abyss
1 Mind Twist

Green: (2)
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Regrowth

Multi: (3)
2 Iridescent Angel
1 Vindicate

Land: (15)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Plains
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard: (15)
4 Meddling Mage
3 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Rule of Law

The deck is basically a Land Tax / Trade Routes draw engine combined with some artifact lock components and other all-around good cards.

Card choices:

Iridescent Angel: I know it may seem a little strange, but so far, it has proven to be the optimal choice.

"Well, why not use Morphling or Decree of Justice? They're strictly better."

Here's why: Regarding Morphling, this deck will never have open mana on an opponent's turn, except in rare occasions. I would never be able to protect a Morphling. Regarding Decree, the fact that it is not a blue card is the sole reason I'm not running it. Yes, it's as simple as that. I've tested it out, and so far, the fact that I can pitch an Angel to Force of Will has won me games that I would have lost had that Angel been a Decree.

Angel can't be Swordsed, disregards The Abyss, is a 4/4 Flying (and is usually unblockable), and the casting cost is never a problem when I'm ready to cast it. That's an A+ in my book.

(On a side note to those who criticize its high mana cost, think of this for a moment: A Decree of Justice, when cycled using seven mana, would produce four 1/1 tokens. Generally, you'd prefer to cycle it and make a much larger number of tokens, usually around ten, which would cost thirteen mana. If this is average, then why is a casting cost of seven considered so high? Am I wrong in saying this?)

Winter Orb / Tangle Wire: A neat thing about the deck is that it can run with very little land in play, and still has a high enough permanent count to support Tangle Wire. Winter Orb is a bomb versus control, and Tangle Wire is a great way to either buy time or to seal the game, not to mention the good synergy they have with eachother.

Ivory Tower / Zuran Orb: I've recently cut the Tower count down to two, but the more I play the deck, the more I wish I was still running a third. In any case, Z'Orb has good synergy with Land Tax and Balance and is usually just an all-around good card. Ivory Tower is a good defense mechanism versus aggro and can start reaching some high numbers when stacked appropriately with Land Tax. Also, they both work well with Tangle Wires.

Green: Regrowth is just fantastic. There is nothing bad about it. Blessing, too, can be very cool; you basically cycle it and have a chance of drawing something excellent. These two cards and Timetwister also make for an infinite graveyard cycle, which I think is a neat mechanism.

Changes to be Made:

Currently, I believe that a major overhaul is in order. I won't like changing it, but I think some will definitely have to be made, and it'll probably be for the better.

The two slots in question would be Land Tax #4 and Trade Routes #4. Whenever I sideboard, I, for the most part, will always remove both.

Since I was devastated by aggro at Waterbury, perhaps another maindecked Swords to Plowshares would be in order. Is there another anti-aggro card that I'm not seeing that would warrant a slot in this deck, and if that were the case, would it be better or worse than the additional Swords?

I also wanted to try one maindecked Tormod's Crypt. At its best, it will disrupt an otherwise powerful Yawgmoth's Will or would stop a Welder from going nuts, it could disrupt Ninja Mask (or any Shapeshifter build) and a couple of other good things. At the very worst, I get there graveyard out of there before I Timetwister. It is a zero to cast artifact that could work well with Tolarian Academy and is tappable for Tangle Wire. Is this a bad idea? I'm still unsure.

Do you think that red would be more effective than green in this deck? Red would open up Blood Moon (which would make me worry about Tolarian, since it is one of the cards that makes this deck run so well), Fire / Ice (which is an awesome card all-around), Red Elemental Blasts, Gorilla Shaman, Rack and Ruin, and others. Green offers Regrowth (this is the main reason I'm running green, this card is just unbelievable), Gaea's Blessing (a very useful topdeck mid to late game), Naturalize, Crop Rotation, Xantid Swarm, and others. Should I run both? Neither? Again, I'm still unsure.

Are there any unbelievable cards that are deserving of a place in this deck that I'm just completely blind to?

Well, that's about it. If you have any suggestions, questions, comments, or would just like to display your utter and total disgust, it'd be highly appreciated. I'd really like to see this deck work.

Thank you.

[TheFram]

I think that this deck is mediocre at best.

It's obvious that it is capable of winning games, but it is also clearly not inherently powerful. The deck has alot of chaff and the draw engine is sickly slow.

Trade Routes + Land Tax?
Ivory Tower?
No Hard Counters other than FOW?
Tangle Wire and WOrb in control?
15 land and only 1 tundra?

These are all suspect choices that lead me to believe that you meta and/or opponents are weak.

This deck is not really relevant to vintage in general since it is a 4 counter control deck with a slow 8 card draw engine with random prison and control elements thrown in. I'm sure the deck is fun, and while you have a right to play what you will, i think you should stop continually looking for approval from this forum. This is what, the fifth time you've posted this deck?

[Robert the Swordsman]

As much as I appreciate your honesty, what I really don't like is that you offered absolutely nothing other than why you think that this deck is terrible.

i think you should stop continually looking for approval from this forum. This is what, the fifth time you've posted this deck?

I am not looking for approval. I'm looking for help.

Unfortunately, this is something that you really didn't offer any of. Is it your honest opinion that I should just give up and go play an already established archetype? That's fine, but then you could have perhaps shortened your post by about a hundred words.

The reason I continue to post is because I have recieved some awesome suggestions in the past and I would like to continue doing so.

If I'm going to continue to play Vintage, I don't want to do it with a deck that has already been laid out for me; the reason I still play Magic (and the reason I don't really like other card games) is because one can build and customize his or her own deck. There are limitless possibilities and I plan to do this if I'm to stay involved in this game.

Please, if you want to offer only criticism, confine it to a PM or simply ignore me, but if you'd like to perhaps drop a word of advice or two, it is welcomed.

[Roxas]

The main problem I see with your deck is that it really lacks focus.  You look like you're trying to be both a prison deck and a standard control deck at once - not a very good idea.  In addition, your mana base looks terribly inconsistent - if you want to use that many colors, you need to use more duals.  Land Tax-based decks almost never have more than two colors for precisely that reason.  

In addition, you have only one permanent solution - The Abyss.  Everything else is either a 1-for-1 or only a temporary solution.  You are also lacking in the amount of control elements you actually have - no Cunning Wish, and only nine cards that have any effect whatsoever on what the opponent is doing.  Sure, you might successfully play your Land Tax / Trade Routes combo... and all you draw are more Land Taxes and Trade Routes.  

You were right - a major overhaul is in order.  Basically, cut at least one (and probably two) colors, and add either more threats or more control elements (more removal and/or permanent solutions).  However, if you think about it, these changes would basically just turn your deck into a really bad Keeper, bad EBA, or even <shudder> bad Parfait.

[TheFram]

@ Robert.

That is because to help this deck would mean to make another one that was very different.

Would you really want me to list changes of 25 cards to your deck, or would you rather play this deck that you "keep coming back to?" (If you want me to list changes, I will, but i get the impression that a 25 card overhaul is not what you are looking for)

My impression of your deck is that it is a keeper wannabe. You have mana denial, counters, answers, a few win conditions, a draw engine, and a smattering of powerfull old cards. My question is, then why not play keeper?

As I said, if you want to play your own thing, I dont mind. However, this deck is not a deck that will ever (in it's current form) have an effect on t1. If you are not playing to win, then post in the casual forum.

[Jacob Orlove]

My question is, then why not play keeper?

Because sometimes decks that are similar develop into distinct archetypes. When Azhrei built OSE, he knew it looked similar to Keeper, but he developed it into a powerful deck for that metagame. Likewise, Psychatog decks used to look a lot like keeper (and CrazyCarl even played Keep-a-Tog at one point), but now they're widely recognized as a completely different deck.

Keeper is not the only control deck out there. A deck with a different approach might actually be better suited to a given metagame. For all we know, this deck could be the perfect foil for some degenerate deck based on some card in 5th dawn.

While online forums are great places to hone old decks, they can be bad places to develop new ones. For that reason, we should make an effort to encourage innovation--without it, we'll fall into the same trap that Beyond Dominia did.

[TheFram]

I wholeheartedly agree with you jacob, which is the reason i made no comment the first 5 times he posted this deck. But if he is still playing the same type of thing after all the opinions he's recieved, then the deck is obviously not developing into a powerhouse.

Also, youre analogy seems to fail. While keeper and OSE seem similar, original OSE went Sui-Morphling/Masticore alot, and had Factories for agression. It was the original pre-tog Aggro-Control deck. Keeper is pure control, similar to this deck (since w/o drain he's not gonna be casting those angels too early.).

[Raph Caron]

Since you're playing Green and you're having trouble with creatures, why don't you play Oath of Druids? It would help tremendously vs almost all decks. I was really expecting to see some in your deck when I saw the Angels.

I guess the mana base would need a lot of work, but I can see this being better simply by adding Oaths. You already run Blessing. It shuffles back in the lands you discarded to Routes.

I'm a big fan of the maindeck Crypt. It cripples a lot of decks.

[Fëanor]

Rob, personally, i think your deck sucks.....but then again i played AGAINST it      

no actually even playing against it was interesting. hm...im thinking expensive cards, however you probably think its a bad idea...
MOAT, WRATH, against aggro der...

well i think you wont agree but mana drain would work in your deck with all your cool exp. cards. however the twist can and usually does become dead if not played very early. duress tends to be more useful, esp if you SB in your mages

if you work your tax to the max, use skeletal scrying to get the rest of your power. it works with the towers.

the weakness i think most people see is that you dont have enough of one thing going with this deck. thoughi think control would work best with your deck. the engine just seems a little too slow for the amount of control you have. with my FS deck, i realized i had a good kill and a good engine, but there wasnt enough board control to get me there. duress helped a bunch.

to be honest, the idea of going for red in place of green sounds either completely insane or very cool...think wheel, another twister...but if you put in red you lose green.

also, this might not be the way youre looking, but wasteland just works well against almost every T1 top tier deck. if not waste, at least use strip for that real annying land.

i dont know what makes a tier one deck, but i have been in the field of T1 for a very long time, and i know what youll have to deal with. i fully back you 100% to be able to try to build your own functional deck without going to stereotype and being like every other crappy deck that wins with morphling or decree. read my FS thread and youll get the idea

ill keep looking at this deck and see if i can find any other revelations, but for now thats it. read the replies to my unpowered FS deck on the newb for inspiration, hope all stays well, catch ya at the store homey

peace

[Jakedasnake]

I fully support you for being original, I think it's completely cool.

You know, I was thinking, The Abyss isn't restricted in Type 1, so even though this MAY sound stupid, as you can't play more than one at a time, but having another humungous bomb could give you quite the boost.

Having 2 maindeck Dismantling Blow could give you quite the boost. You have all that artifact acceleration, and maindeck artifact/removal seem like a must here.

Crop Rotation also seems excellent. As you said, having a Tolarian Academy in play can mean game over.

Let's see, I would consider dropping 1 Trade Routes, 1 Mind Twist, 1 Gush, 1 Ivory Tower. This way, you could add in 2 Dismantling Blow,  1 Crop Rotation, 1 Swords to Plowshares.

I think that this could improve the decks performance a bit.

Good luck, and I'll continue with ideas when they pop into my head.

[Robert the Swordsman]

( See next post. )

[Bram]

Would you really want me to list changes of 25 cards to your deck, or would you rather play this deck that you "keep coming back to?"

I think I can see where you're both coming from. On one hand, you have to understand that you most likely cannot make minor cosmetic changes to this deck that will suddenly make it 'tier 1' or ' tier 2', whatever that may be.

On the other, there's undoubtedly an optimal build for every strategy. You might not make your deck great by tweaking it, but you probably will find a way to make it better (I've had the same problem with Pox in the past). You might face an additional problem: the lack of focus makes it hard to tune either archetype.

The question that only you can answer is: is the time (and possibly money) I spend on tweaking this deck worth it? With much less effort, you can build a stronger deck. But the fun of playing and tweaking your own creation might be enough to warrant the expense.

Either way, I have said this before on many a thread: if you're not interested in helping out someone tweak a suboptimal deck, that's no problem. Just post elsewhere.

[Robert the Swordsman]

Well, I'm somewhat torn.

The more I thought about what was said, the more I realized that it is at least somewhat true, and I kept thinking that I should just scrap the whole thing. Then again, I proceeded to continue thinking about the things that were said and realized how much of it was not as true as some have made it out to be.

I guess that my manabase is terrible according to others, and looking at the decklist alone might cause one to make that assumption, but I never have a problem getting the right amount or right color of mana. Strands can get either Plains or Islands, and if it's obvious that no Wasteland is coming down or I need the white one turn and blue the next, it can go snag a Tundra. The deck has alot of drawing power, but even if I don't draw into Moxen / Lotus / the other lands (which is most often what happens), I can Tax out the Swamp or the Forest when necessary. I guess that, by looking at the list, the manabase could be concluded as terrible, but I have honestly never had a problem with it.

There are still some questions that I have that I would like some advice on...

...should I run red over green? Both? Neither?

Tax #4 and Routes #4 can be dropped, so what should I add in? Swords to Plowshares? Tormod's Crypt? A fourth Winter Orb or Tangle Wire, or both? Some card that I'm just not thinking of or seeing? Or should I just leave in both of them?

If there are some cards that should, without a doubt, be dropped / added, what are they?

If there were to be any severe or drastic changes, what should they be?

Any other advice?

Thank you.

[DavidHernandez]

i've followed your posts in all of the forums.  You're really playing a Lock deck.  As such, i think you might have a better shot with your build if you add 2 Kismet's, and possibly Armageddons.  I think you can drop the green.  If you REALLY want to get to your graveyard, you could add Recall for more blue.  The Gaea's Blessing could be moved to the sideboard.

i also think you are not playing enough Swords to Plowshares, and if you're going to play Black you MUST run YawgWill.

Have you considered Moat?  that might end a lot of your problems in one shot.

U/w/b is kind of like ABM, but you would have a completely different focus.  Your mana base would level out too.

just my $0.02

dave.

[dtower]

(On a side note to those who criticize its high mana cost, think of this for a moment: A Decree of Justice, when cycled using seven mana, would produce four 1/1 tokens. Generally, you'd prefer to cycle it and make a much larger number of tokens, usually around ten, which would cost thirteen mana. If this is average, then why is a casting cost of seven considered so high? Am I wrong in saying this?)

   The casting cost is considered horrible for the sheer fact that it requires you to spend the mana on your turn. I think you've completely missed the point that a Decree cycled for whatever maybe more expensive, for what you see as more fragile creatures, but it's mana spent at the end of an opponent's turn.
    I don't think you've fully grasped the fact that spending mana during your turn means you have less mana to react with during your opponent's turn, that tends to be the basics of most control strategies. Well, that and achieving card advantage and not tossing away card parity.

[Carlos El Salvador]

This is what I think...  I think if your playing tax, you need to play the tax/rack.  Also, Ivory tower has no place in T1 IMHO.  That frees up two spaces, three since I would play 4 taxes, 3 Scroll Racks.  Yes, I think the deck needs to play at max three colors as well.  It'll be tough, but you could just make a color a splash color...  whcih would mean that we cut green or black completly.  I say we cut black as the true black card your using is the Abyss.  I would personally like to change that over to a moat, and turn vindicate into swords.  Fastbond would be nice, and once crucibal of worlds comes along, the deck will work very nicely and can use belcher as the main kill (perhaps)

0 CC mana:  Lotus, Emerald, Sapphire, Pearl, mox Diamond*
Land base:
U/W Fetchland x4, G/W fetch x1, 2 forest, 3 plains, 4 island, 1 Acadamy, 3 Tundra, 2 Tropical islands. (Yes, that's adding five slots... whitch right now puts your deck at like fifty-nine cards) Blue changes: +4 Mana Drain (I think Draining into Tangle wire would be most beautiful.) -1 Timetwister (your not a combo deck.  Don't play combo cards.)  White - +1 Swords, +1 Moat (fetchable with tutor.)  Green - +1 Fastbond.  I would also conciter dropping a winter orb or two.  How has your sideboard been working?

[Misemaster]

I played against your deck once before at a tourny in Lincoln RI a long time ago and i thought it was very cool so i wouldnt say drop it. I think it definently can be improved.

Carlos really hit on something with the goblin carbelcher i think. It would probably be a quicker kill than the angel and it would help with the aggro problem if you use it as spot removal. I would leave in an angel or another kill though as it is vunerable to null rod.

Have you considered running back to basics in this? With the trade routes and so many basics that could be nuts. I would probably get rid of the winter orb for them because it basically does the same job. Thats all i have right now but back to basics in here really appeals to me.

And the synergy between back to basics and tangle wire seems really cool.

[Carlos El Salvador]

Mmm...  That is one helluva combo!  Wow...  That is great.  Good job, mize.  If we do that, we do have to minimize our duals, though.  I also still say the deck needs 4 Drains, as they allow for third turn craziness (Playing a Back to Basics AND Tangle wire on turn 3 would make me cream pants... and you can do that by countering somthing for four!)
Mmm...   goodness...

sorry about that... anyhow... I still think this deck is evolving, and I still say cutting a color to make a more stable manabase would be svg t3ch.