UG Budget Gro - Criticism Please

[TheFram]

This is budget 2 color Gro w/ an NBLH theme, there are 2 Darkstell cards in the SB


NBLH - 11
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Stifle
2 Back to Basics
2 Null Rod

Threats - 8
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Werebear

Control/Draw - 23
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Deep Analysis
1 Gush
2 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Misdirection
2 Cunning Wish

Mana - 18
2 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
6 Island
2 Forest
1 Lotus Petal

Sideboard - 15
3 Viridian Zealot
2 Submerge
1 Oxidize
1 Naturalize
1 Berserk
1 Stifle
1 Back to Basics
1 Null Rod
3 Tormod's Crypt

The point is clearly to aggro-dryad/werebear on control, while locking down their mana. On aggro you can try to sit back on the dryad. Game 2 you can drop null rod and B2B for submerge and viridian zealot for more chumping and removal.

I made this deck when some one asked me for a budget "control" deck. Generally, the deck is just basic gro with a land hate sub theme. So far has been pretty good, but I would like to make it better if possible.

Thanks in advance.

[BreathWeapon]

Did you consider ESG for first turn Dryad/Werebear drops and additional 2/2 beat stick in the MD?

Has Intuition done anything for you? It seems kind of slow and unwieldly for a deck without Mana Acceleration, maybe Isochron Scepters instead? The Stix seem to compliment both AK and Dryads rather nicely.

What about Xantid Swarms/Carpet of Flowers in the SB for the Control Mirror?

Just some random thoughts for discussion.

[JACO]

Because 'mana denial' is a sub-theme to your deck, Wasteland of course immediately springs to mind. You might consider swapping in 2 Wastelands for the 2 Stifles you have main deck. This will
a) prevent your Stifles from being a dead draw, and
b) provide the same possible land destruction elements, while providing the possibility of Wasteland being able to provide colorless mana if you are light during any point in the game.

This would be essentially upping your possible mana sources to 20 (from the very meager 18 you provide, which usually works better when you have Moxes), while still providing that mana denial spark you might need in a pinch.

[TheFram]

I play 4 wastes and 1 strip

Reading lists is tech.

[mouth]

I'm assuming you tried Daze, but why didn't you like it? Clogging up your hand with land is a bad thing I suppose, especially with the amount of draw in there. Any further reasons? Not enough room?

Was Mystical Tutor considered? I know it's a tough call without the default Ancestral to tutor up, but it's nice to grab that last AK or even an Intuition.

It's an interesting design, and I can see it's merits, but it seems like some more early game counters would be beneficial.

[EDIT]: Just to add, the whole Gro archetype thrives on pitch counters. From Foil to Fow to Daze, they're there not only to protect a turn 1 or 2 Dryad while tapped out, but they allow you to continue tapping out for card draw. Mise is perfect for the deck as well. Also, I mention Foil because it's been used in previous Gro decks in other formats, but it's overshadowed by FoW in classic.

[Roxas]

As someone else mentioned, Xantid Swarm would be a good sideboard addition.  

Finding room for more cantrips (like Opt) might be a good idea.  I'd cut Intuition and Back to Basics for them; Back to Basics isn't that good anymore, and the big (but pricey) boost from Intuition isn't quite as good when you don't have any Psychatogs to feed.  If you don't want to use cantrips, Ophidian and Daze would be good to consider in these slots as well.

The decklist you posted also has a noticable lack of removal.  While Quirion Dryad will often be bigger than your opponent's creatures, you can't exactly rely on that.   I suggest splashing a third color - white for Swords to Plowshares (and maybe Meddling Mage and Mystic Enforcer too), or red for stuff like Fire/Ice and artifact hate.



P.S.  Organizing your decklist the same way most people do is 'tech' too.  People typically look with the other lands for Wasteland and Strip Mine, so when you toss it in some other section, it can be easy to miss.  Usually, non-mana source spells are grouped by function, and then all lands and mana sources grouped together.

[snotball007]

One question has popped to mind. Have you tried the horn of greed/exploration (and fastbond) draw engine or are they too slow? I realize it really wouldnt work in this list with a whole 18 mana sources (not counting the 5 strip effects).

I would highly suggest the addition of merchant scroll. You basically have the ability with that one card to find anything in your deck that you might need outside of creatures/lands.

Also, how has the 2 wishes worked out? Seems rather pointless when you have such a small wish board. I would probably cut one of those (or a mis-d/stifle) for a scroll.

Lotus petal seems weak in the mana-base here. I feel another forest would do better in it, but that is just me.

I hope I helped  

[mouth]

Intuition is pretty mandatory when running Accumulated Knowledge. Against Tog though, you may not win the counter war, especially with the low amount of counters and the low mana count.

Ophidian is not really what the deck wants, but Daze could be alright, possibly as a Wish target, although there isn't any expendable room in the sideboard.

Categorizing Wasteland and Strip Mine in the NBLH category is a personal convention; some people include them under mana, others under disruption, but it shouldn't matter either way.

The TurboNevynish style draw engine doesn't fit the deck. It's an aggro-control deck, as odd as that may seem with only 8 threats. HoG + Exploration is a combo, and works best in dedicated combo decks.

The 2 Cunning Wish are integral to the deck. Although the Wish targets may seem limited, Berserk, Stifle, Naturalize and Oxidize are some of the strongest options available. They're all very useful, particularly Stifle and Berserk.

Lotus Petal simply allows for turn 1 Dryad, which, with sufficient pitch counters is just sick. It can win games, as counter-intuitive as that may seem.

Also, Submerge is freakin' tech against GBU Dragon, Verdant Forces, O. Stompy, etc. Have you tested Viridian Zealot? They're pretty cool and all, but they are GG, non-blue and another sorcery speed spell. What matchup do you really see them being great against? For Workshop a combination of Naturalize and Oxidize would just be better, and you already have 3 Crypts's, 3 Stifle, 2 Submerge and 2 Cunning Wish -> Naturalize versus Dragon. Concering B2B; it can also be devastating against either of those decks, which along with the Keeper and various other 3 or 4 colour lists necessitates their inclusion, but not more than 2.

[Flurp™]

Exactly how budget is this?  If it can go higher I would make it more like GAT or super gro.

Intuition is pretty mandatory when running Accumulated Knowledge

Intuition is not mandatory with AK, Its slow and without tog it dosent provide enough boost.  Even in GAT I think that Intuition is suboptimal.

[Roxas]

Exactly how budget is this?  If it can go higher I would make it more like GAT or super gro.

Intuition is pretty mandatory when running Accumulated Knowledge

Intuition is not mandatory with AK, Its slow and without tog it dosent provide enough boost.  Even in GAT I think that Intuition is suboptimal.

Pretty much took the words right out of my mouth.  Intuition rocks with Psychatog because it gives a bigger boost to the amount of cards in hand and cards in graveyard in the span of only a single turn.  When your focus is pumping Quirion Dryad, however, the quantity of spells is almost as important as the amount of cards they draw (hence my earlier suggestion of the one-mana cantrips, such as Opt and Sleight of Hand).

Adding another color and turning the deck into SuperGro would make it an overall more versatile deck.  Replacing four basics with four duals (and changing some of the fetchlands to island-fetching ones) would still leave your mana base relatively safe, while making Cunning Wish significantly better and vastly improving your removal selection.

Lastly, you probably want at least one Blue Elemental Blast in the sideboard to Cunning Wish for against Dragon and Blood Moon.

[TheFram]

Flurp™ wrote:

Exactly how budget is this? If it can go higher I would make it more like GAT or super gro.


Quote:

Intuition is pretty mandatory when running Accumulated Knowledge


Intuition is not mandatory with AK, Its slow and without tog it dosent provide enough boost. Even in GAT I think that Intuition is suboptimal.


Pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. Intuition rocks with Psychatog because it gives a bigger boost to the amount of cards in hand and cards in graveyard in the span of only a single turn. When your focus is pumping Quirion Dryad, however, the quantity of spells is almost as important as the amount of cards they draw (hence my earlier suggestion of the one-mana cantrips, such as Opt and Sleight of Hand).

Adding another color and turning the deck into SuperGro would make it an overall more versatile deck. Replacing four basics with four duals (and changing some of the fetchlands to island-fetching ones) would still leave your mana base relatively safe, while making Cunning Wish significantly better and vastly improving your removal selection.

Lastly, you probably want at least one Blue Elemental Blast in the sideboard to Cunning Wish for against Dragon and Blood Moon.

1) Stifle and Naturalize are just as good against dragon as BEB. There is NOTHING to BEB in dragon other than the dragon, while stifling the dragon has the same effect and stifle #3 is more versatile than BEB.

2) Intuition is not mandatory, but it is good. I dont know about the rest of you but I like having ways of getting immediate card advantage. Without 4 Gush, cantrips just dont do the job anymore.

3) Adding a second color is an option.

[BreathWeapon]

Blue Elemental Blast is Goblin Welder removal. I'm not sure if thats a significant point in budget T1, but it is the 1 thing BEB does that Stifle can't.

I wouldn't add the third color just for Swords to Plowshares. In a scrub metagame the Bears and Dryads should be enough to run over 90% of the aggro decks your going to see played. Back To Basics and the Null Rods are too integral to the deck to remove or weaken. If this deck wants to have a shot vs more dedicated control, its going to have to hit their manabase with everything its got. Swords will only really improve your matchups vs Mask and Aggro-Workshop, as you can always MD or SB more Stifles for Rector, Spoils Trix and Dragon ... which are the only viable budget combo decks for scrubs.

I think a picture of the metagame you intend to play this deck in would greatly help.

P.S. Nobody has a comment on ESG? If people are using Lotus Petal for first turn Dryad drops, why not ESG?

[TheFram]

ESG is under consideration, but i think the deck may need blue too much for it.

-Avi

[MadManiac21]

In a budget Gro deck, I think ESG definately needs to be considered. maybe not four, but running two I think would greatly help you cast your spells a turn faster since you're lacking moxen. It is also a complete surpirse attack on your opponents when you have one blue open EOT and you suddenly pitch ESG to AK for 2-4 cards. It helps you drop the creatures on turn one, before most decks have counter ability besides for FoW. That's big.

I'm not intirely sold on the intuition front. Both of the last winners of the big waterbury tournaments were GAT builds, and neither one ran intuitions. You are not only a) not using power but also b) not using tog. If you decide to stick with it though, their number should not rise above two.

Sol ring should really in here. I don't care if you also run null rod. It spits that out faster, along with almost every other card in the deck. I would definately keep the B2B if you see alot of duals in your area.

(P.S. Flurp, you're from noho? Do you go to the hadley tournaments alot? Maybe i've seen you before)

[Grand Inquisitor]

NBLH - 11
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Stifle
2 Back to Basics
2 Null Rod

Gro decks, unlike Keeper for example, don't want to slow down the pace of the game.  In my experience with dryad based decks, mana denial is not as effective as a strong counter base and lots of card advantage.  I think this is especially true since your NBLH is rather unfocused.  On a sidenote, running lots of two-of's has bad synergy with intuition.

My advice would be to keep flexible utility like stifle, and hosers like Back to Basics, but drop the rest.  I can see Null Rod as a possible sideboard option (against workshop, storm and mask), but wouldn't run it main unless I was running 3 or 4.

The creature base looks fine.  For a minute I considered Forgotten Ancient as an alternative to werebears, but I don't think this deck has the acceleration.  You may want to check out PhantomTapeWorm's new creation just to see if anything can be borrowed from it.

Control/Draw - 23
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Deep Analysis
1 Gush
2 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Misdirection
2 Cunning Wish

The biggest factor to consider here is whether or not you're going to make Intuition a focus in your deck.  If so, you should increase the number of Deep Analysis and add a Cunning Wish.  You should also bring the 3rd SB Back to Basics main, or run all three in the board.  With the higher curve sol ring looks like a solid addition.

I reiterate that I think you should substitute your mana denial strategy for more counters.

Mana - 18
2 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
6 Island
2 Forest
1 Lotus Petal

This looks fine, but I doubt you'll need the second forest, especially with werebears providing green mana in a pinch.  The Lotus Petal looks odd, and I already mentioned Sol Ring.

Regarding the maindeck as a whole, usually gro decks run some sort of utility for creatures and artifact main.  Since you don't have access to pernicious deed, powder keg would work if you can find room for it.

Sideboard - 15
3 Viridian Zealot
2 Submerge
1 Oxidize
1 Naturalize
1 Berserk
1 Stifle
1 Back to Basics
1 Null Rod
3 Tormod's Crypt

This looks good for a general metagame.  Submerge looks weak, and it would help if people posted card text for Darksteel cards since some people have jobs and don't have time to read primers immediately after they come out


To throw in my own two cents, I played a variation of Emerald Alice at the Waterbury tournament.  Although it was the only time I've 'tested' the deck, it performed pretty well.  Picture the above deck, except it runs a morphling, and additional draw instead of wearbears and mana denial.  It also splashes black (two Underground Seas) for Yawgmoth's Will and Cunning Wish targets.

The sideboard looked like this:

4x Oath of Druid
1x Gaea's Blessing (one main for dragon)
1x Woodripper
1x Spike Weaver
2x Null Rods
6x Metagame instants

Just something to think about...