[Deck] Long.dec

[Smmenen]

If Urza's Bauble said 0: tap sac draw a card, every deck would play 4 and every deck woudl effectively have 56 cards.

Steve

[Carlos El Salvador]

@Smmennenseman:  Yes, they would.  But it dosn't, that is why many decks don't play them.
@New Long.dec:  I need to test it myself personally, but I am liking the discussion it is generating.  I personally think that we should try and fit in a couple of helms, as the advantage of them with the addition of Death wish and Cabal Ritual is tremendous.  I'll churne out a list and playtest on MWS for a while...

[carlossb]

Urza's Bauble 0

Artifact  
TAP: Sacrifice Urza's Bauble to choose a card at random from target player's hand, look at that card. Ignore this ability if that player has no cards left in hand. Draw a card at the beginning of the next turn's upkeep.

[Nehptis]

I've tested the Helm's and they feel clunky.  I'm not syaing rule them out but they are just as speculative as the 3 D Wish / Cabal Ritual route.  I can tell you though, the Helm's greatly increasw the power of the Cromatic Sphere's.  I tested with 4 Spheres and 3 Helm's.  The 4th helm felt extra clunky.

To clarify, by clunky I mean that in most games I felt like I wasted a turn setting up the Helm and then went off the next turn.  Now that's acceptable if I setup Turn 1.  But, that doesn't happen too often.  Mostly I was setting up turn 2 or even 3......clunky.

Also, does anyone have any more suggestions for adding / removing cards from the Core Card list?  I'd really like to keep that current.  It's a great starting point for doing a lot of testing.

[Di]

Actually, I've been using Crop Rotation for a while - since Dec. 28th since which I've been playing Death wish Long - my understanding DRG is that Kirdape leaked it to you.

Steve

Actually, he kinda leaked it to me, who drg` then showed me his own list that Syracuse people(who have no connection to TMD/meandeck what so ever) started constructed and then I noticed the similarity, and then gave drg' some of the info from what Rian told me.

Sorry Rian, -Diablos.

[rozetta]

I got a chance to try the Helms. When playing Helms, I generally tend to not want to drop them until I'm trying to go off - off a ritual, for instance. However, I agree that they felt a little clunky too. You tend to want to drop them early to get  the most bonus off them, for instance even before casting a Chromatic Sphere.

To illustrate the point, imagine having two 5-colour mana sources on the board, a ritual, a cabal ritual and a wheel. In this situation, you'd cast the ritual, the cabal ritual and then wheel, leaving 2 black in the pool.

If that cabal ritual were a helm, you might not want to cast it, since after the wheel, you'd have no mana in the pool to continue.

However, the cards you draw after the wheel are all cheaper (for example Chromatic Spheres, Mana Vault, Sol Ring are now free). But if you have no mana, you're gambling on drawing a mana source, which is worse if you've already dropped a land.

In essence, the Helms are a little slow, needing an extra turn to set up. What's worse is that they don't lessen the mana cost of the cards you're using to get the mana you need to continue with.

I'm still on the fence about them and will try them a little more, but they're not as good as they were in theory.

[drg`]

Sorry about posting this stupid thing.  If Smmenen would ever of replied to his e-mail I wouldn't of.  Regardless sorry for getting Colin (di) in trouble or something.  Even though I solved the Mud / Slavery / Big O matchups that were the major issue for this deck I just won't bother progressing this any further.  Since its just pissing people off.  Not like anyone even listens about Spirit Guilds or Spheres anyways.

Out,
Mike

[Smmenen]

Shit, I'm sorry - I should have replied.  I forwarded your post to our group... I just wasn't sure what to say.  I was working on my lists - I could have at least said some small sentence - like: "looks good."  

Steve

[drg`]

I initialy perfered to keep it low key, thats why I didn't post it till after Waterbury as I figgured you would play it.  Its not big deal, I thought you just blew me off.  If you want to talk about some idea's I had just PM me, they might help make this deck more meta relivent.

Mike

[Smmenen]

I thought about replying - but, like I said, I wasn't sure what to say.  After that, it just got lost in the shuffle.

Steve

[rozetta]

I decided to try out the non-wish route, replacing the 3 wishes (I had already dropped one Death Wish previously) and 1 consult in my build with a Yawgmoth's Will and the 3 Helms (still running the 3 Cabal Ritual). Initial goldfishing had the deck running a lot faster than with the wishes.  However, that's just goldfishing.

I'm worried about the lower threat density, though, since the wishes or consult, when topdecked, can end the game (but not the helms). Also, the deck would be susceptible to random cap effects, which is bad (even if they're not played all that much). However, a more reliable turn 2 win should at least minimize the damage.

Testing against real opponents is required, so I'll post some results when I get around to it (although this Darksteel release means I probably won't get to play any Magic this weekend).

[hellswarm]

was just pondering somethings.....
n e on ever consider using

ill gotten gains?
seeing how this engine tends to dropping its own hand and expoting draw 7's

with helm out if u are using this bb to grab and reuse three cards while striping the oppoents hand away could be potenially usefull....

n e thoughts..

i think the 4 mana investment could be a bad part...but considering cabal ritual....doesn't this need threshold to get huge.... so coudn't this help reach that faster?

[carlossb]

Ill-Gotten Gains
2BB Sorcery  

Remove Ill-Gotten Gains from the game. All players discard their hands, then each player puts up to three cards from his or her graveyard into his or her hand.

You´re not exactly striping opponent hand, cause they can always discard the Force of Wills and put 2 of them in his/her hand. Also, they could put 3 counters previously used in hand...

[Queequeg]

I have just had a look at the Darksteel spoiler on the way home from work Today,(form mtg.com, but remeber it is a spoiler) and it looks like DCI have delivered the goods.

Retract
U
Instant
Return all artifacts you control to your hand.

[SpencerForHire]

We've been running a very successful version of Tendrils, its not long but the same values apply.  We have been running meditate, its no draw 7, but its only 3 mana, and two of which you usually arent paying because of multiple helms.  The deck is also VERY consistent, first and second turn kills for the most part.  The slowest is a crappy turn 4 on a very bad draw..
But if you consider it, what is the loss of your next turn if they dont live that long?

[BreathWeapon]

Strange, I really expected to see this sort of thread immediately after Jan 1st. I'm really surprised it took this long, no pun intended, to see renewed interest.

After the Bannings were announced, the first thing I did was use 3 ESG and 3 Death Wish. After that, I ditched the Chromatic Spheres to make room for; 4th Death Wish, 4th ESG, Crop Rotation and Channel. You simply can't afford to sink 1 mana into Chromatic Sphere anymore with Death Wish at 3cc instead of Burning Wish's 2cc. Sphere's color fixing isn't necessary with Red out of the picture, I run Duress over Xantid Swarms so Green isn't nearly as necessary. Cabal Therapy is an interesting direction to take the deck in, I really like this idea to tell you the truth. I wish I had thought of it. I'm just not sure how to fit them into the deck right now.

The majority of the MD seems locked to me, but whats even more interesting than the MD, IMO, is the added versatility to the deck's Side Board with Death Wish in the mix. Mirror Universe is really amusing, lol.

Keep up the good work.

Edit: Chrome Mox is probably better than Mox Diamond, but you can always use both.

[carlossb]

Sphere's color fixing isn't necessary with Red out of the picture

While I played with 'old'-Long, the Spheres where used most of the times mainly to put any card you want in your hand, with vampiric and mystical tutor, and to draw an extra card with mana-floating.

In new-Long you don´t have much mana to waste, but the drawing ability of the sphere seems necessary

4th Death Wish, 4th ESG, Crop Rotation and Channel

So you´re using now green instead of red?......

[rozetta]

@Breathweapon: Channel. That's an interesting choice. Has the GG casting cost ever been a problem? Going out of your way to make GG for a channel and still needing U and B for most of the key spells sounds like it would be a problem, but I've never tested it, so I'm just guessing. Noted that you're running 4xESG, but with no chromatic sphere, so it's, in essence, the same number of G sources as running with the reverse situation (although maybe a litle faster).

I have an alpha channel sitting in my card box which has never seen play in any of my decks since I acquired it, and the idea of being able to break it out is quite exciting.

@Gimbles: Meditate and helms sounds like a return to the Academy decks of a year or two ago (but obviously with a more reliable win condition). How much does it have in common with the long-style decks discussed here? Does it still run rituals, wishes, etc.?

[Nehptis]

I'm just going to toss this out there and take the abuse.  Most of our discussions have been around speeding up the deck to make up for the lost turn due to the latest restrictions.  But, maybe the tools are just not there to do that and its better to take the opposite approach.  Slow the game down by a turn while we set up the kill.

Peace Talks - 1W - Sorcery

Oracle Text: This turn and next turn, players skip their combat phases and can’t play spells or abilities that target a permanent or player. (Triggered abilities are unaffected.)

I know that Orim's chant is even safer.  But, WW is much more difficult to produce than 1W.

I'm thinking of testing with 3 maindeck and 1 SB.  Or 2 and 1 SB.

[carlossb]

Peace Talks - {W} - Sorcery
.....can’t play spells or abilities that target a permanent or player...

So you can´t target the opponent with 'your' Tendrils of Agony...

[BreathWeapon]

Channel hasn't been very impressive for me, I cut it for another Mana Source.  I don't run green with the exception of the single Crop Rotation, and I don't run Red with the exception of the single Burning Wish and Wheel of Fortune. From what i've seen, the deck needs to be generating more mana as opposed to filtering mana, which is why ESG is soo important.

[Nehptis]

So you can´t target the opponent with 'your' Tendrils of Agony...

Correct, but the idea is that the PT is a setup spell.  So you cast it to give yourself one more turn to go off.  Think of it as a mini-Time Walk.  You wouldn't cast it the Turn that you are going off.

eg...Turn 2 I cast PT I can't play anymore spells that target this trun. My turn ends.  It's now my opponent's turn.  They can't attack or play targeting spells.  Their turn ends. It's now my turn.  I go off.

My thinking is that having 3-4 Time Walks in this deck isn't a bad thing.    Long used to need 1 or 2 turns to win.  Now it needs 2 or 3.  I think that it may be better to try and go down the path of winning in 2 or 3 turns instead of trying to find solutions to make the deck win on Turn 1 or 2 as it did in the past.  If the tools were there to win T1 or T2 then fine.  But, I just don't see any suitable replacements for 3 LEDs and 3 BWs.  The deck is so crutched by the Draw 7s now-a-days that playing it like it was orginally designed is just too fragile and inconsistent.  I'm not saying give up on the current thinking.  But, I think that it is worth taking the time of considering this new direction of slowing down the match in adddition to continuing to research ways of stabilizing and speeding up the deck.

[carlossb]

Correct, but the idea is that the PT is a setup spell. So you cast it to give yourself one more turn to go off

I don´t think it´s a good idea, because in those 'extra' turns, the opponent (if he doen´s counter the Peace Talks...) will draw extra cards, extra counter spells...

One of the functions of the duress is to clear the opponent hand an go-off ealier. If you have to wait more turns, you´ll have more cards to discard from the opponent.

[BreathWeapon]

To be honest, I think the weakest link in the entire deck is Time Walk. The only time I ever want to see it is turn 1, or possibly turn 2. The Top Deck tutors are also coming up a little short without Chromatic Spheres, so its tempting to cut them to. That might seem to be a little extreme, but who knows?

[Nehptis]

@ carlossb:

Well, arguing over Peace Talks resolving or not is a moot point.  Of course an opponent is going to counter a powerful spell when he can in a match.

So, let's examine your second critique.  Card advantage.  Your worried about the opponent drawing more cards.  Now he's going to get one card from his draw.  There's no stopping that.  But, of the POPULAR Type 1 drawing cards what can be played if PT resolves?

Ancestral Recall-Nope, can't target a player
Braingeyser-Nope, can't target a player
Stroke of Genius-Nope, can't target a player

Frantic Search - Yes, 0 card advantage
Brainstorm - Yes, 1 card advantage
Intuition - Yes, 1 card advantage
AK-Yes, 1-4 card advantage
LoA-Yes, 1 Card advantage

That's a pretty short list.  And of them, only AK can provide massive card advantage.  Also, which decks do you need to worry about gaining card advantage?  IMO only decks that pack Countermagic/Stifle.

I don't care if an Aggro Deck draws more cards.  They can't attack, don't have counters and I'm going off next turn.
Combo decks, well they can't target me, so they can't win that turn, and I'm going off next turn.

So you're argument IMO only applies to decks that have control, play 1 of the 5 cards above and draw into a "counterspell". Those are some pretty low odds.  I'll take them any day.

Of course, if u are playing a deck that packs COTV they could draw into that and play it.  But, that's a whole separate arguement and analysis.

[Nehptis]

@BreathWeapon:

I agree with your analysis of Time Walk in a "Classic" long build and play strategy.  But, keep in mind that I'm approaching it from the reverse direction.
Previous discussions were about fixing the deck so that it MUST win AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.  I'm saying that I don't think the cards are there to make it as fast as it once was.  (I've been trying since the restrictions announcemnt to fix it, just like you guys.)

So I'm going in the reverse direction.  Setting up my game so that I WILL win AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.  The difference lies in TRYING to go-off and KNOWING you will go off.

I've just started testing and time will tell.  But, in Goldfishing so far shows that having that 1 extra turn makes all the difference in the world.  And remember the deck is still essentially the same.  I cut 2 x C Rituals and 1 x Brain Storm.  So it still has its Turn 1, 2 etc. broken wins regardless of the PTs.  But, when I find myself in a situation where I try to go off and see it stalling or if I need just 1 more draw and untap step the PTs make all the difference in the world.