Top 25 Creatures Article

[Cliff]

Mishra's Factory has been a staple whenever its been legal.

Treetop Village has also seen play in a variety of decks in both Standard and Extended.

Chimeric Idol was ubiquitous in block and Standard and has appeared in extended.

[lurking_evil]

Where the hell is MOGG FANTIC?!   

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Just for completeness sake, there was a Morphling in an extended T8 this season. Mike Pustilniks three color Tog deck from GP New Orleans. Not that this means he's broken in extended, but he is still playable to t8 finishes!

[Ric_Flair]

As far as Mishra's and its ilk, as I said before, the line I drew was the card had to be a summon spell.  If I began looking at creature like cards, there would be no real place to stop.  If Mishra's, Villages, and Idols are included why not Call of the Herd, and then after that, why not Squirrel Nest?  The regression becomes to difficult to control.  Admittedly this is a semi arbitrary line, but one the game itself uses, not one I made up.

As far the the judging is concerned I am revising the standings, swapping Meddling Mage for Soltari Priest, I think.  However, Welder seems to have little historical support.  He is broken, no doubt, but he has had a very small impact on Standard.  I am still working on it though.  Any help with Welder decks in Standard would be great.  I am also reconsidering D'nought as well.  Worldgorger is considerably more narrow than the "combo creatures" on the list.  D Hermit being the most versatile, followed by Squee, and then D'Nought.  Worldgorger is good in only one deck and only in a combo.  His value cannot be that high given these facts.

Savannah Lion is a card that seems to prove the value in my three part approach (independent efficiency, metagame value, historical value).  Savannah Lion is better than Jackal Pup in the first category, but loses dramatically in the last two.  The long and the short of it is that Savannah Lion has been in, at most, one third as many winning decks as Jackal Pup.  The history lesson tells us Jackal Pup is better.  The fact that Savannah Lion set the bar is important (which is why it is on this list), but in the end this is not exclusively a history lesson.  It is similar to why Erhnam and Juzam and Serra are not on the list.  They are historically important, but have largely been replaced by better more efficient creatures (Ernie by Arrogant Wurm and Roar, Juzam by a ton of cards, and Serra by Exalted Angel) and even these replacement creatures are not good enough to make the cut.  Actually if Roar were simply a creature it would have made the list in all likelihood.  It would have been low if the restriction on being able to kill it with bounce remained, but it would have made it nonetheless.

Morphling did appear in a top 8 in this past Extended season.  I admit that I was wrong.  However, the irony is telling.  There was a single morphling, one, in the entire season that appeared in the top 8.  Mikey P's lone Superman was in fact a back up to the real star of his deck--Psychatog, of which there were three.  Put it this way there were more Topples in the top 32 this season of Extended than Morphling.

[leakycow]

You're right not to include man-lands and token creatures.  That would just muddy the waters way too much.

As far as Pups and Lions...I understand your point about historical significance playing a minor role, at best, in your list.  However, I wouldn't compare Savannah Lions to Ernie or Juzam or Serra (old staples from a long-gone era).  Those other creatures have fallen off the face of the Earth.  Savannah is still pretty heavily played...any WW/x deck and several zoo decks that splash white jump all over the Lions.  I'd dare say, and I might be wrong, that Savannah Lions shows up in as many 2003 decklists as Serendib Efreet, another older card that still sees some play.

Mogg fanatic is definitely another consideration, as somebody else brought up.  He owned 1998, appearing in Sligh decks as well as Type 2 control decks like counterphoenix.  It also made the jump to Extended and Type I.

As far as the "combo" creatures go, I think Squee is the most important of the bunch, followed by Dreadnought and a distant 3rd for WGDragon.

[walking dude]

Welder was very big in block, with dangertron red being a big deck in UBC. It was wildfire with welders, I think Mike Flores or someone wrote an article about it on the dojo way abck when. Anyway, it is big in T1 and it was big in block.

[Puschkin]

There is one glaring error in your judging process:
I understand that you examine historical evidences in the various formats but put too much emphasize one "the other" formats as in non-Type I-formats.
I do not say this because Type I is my favourite format. You are determining the best creatures of magic, and as with any of these questions like ("best card in magic" etc.) one has to consider Type I the most because its the only format where all cards are legal! Nowhere else are all cards in complete rivalry, directly against each other!

Despite of that, you posted here in the Vintage Forum and not in Community or Casual where it would be more appropriate.

[Ric_Flair]

I tried to make clear the heavy bias for the Type 1 metagame in evaluating the cards.  The problem is when looking at creatures, few make it to the cut throat tables of Vintage.  Thus if a creature is good in Vintage it gets a ton of points.  If it is not, then I look at other formats.  Juggernaut/Su Chi, Squee, Serendib Efreet, Morphling, Hypnotic Specter, Kird Ape made the list EXCLUSIVELY on their power in Vintage.  Creatures like Negator, Masticore, Shade, Jackal Pup, Mogg Fanatic, and Piledriver were also helped out enormously by their impact on Type 1.  Only a few creatures on the list are truly useless in Type 1.  So I take your advice and will try to implement my standard more fairly.  

Also here is a rough percentage allotment of value:
Historical Power: 60%
Vintage Power: 20%
Other Constructed Power: 10%
Efficiency: 10%  

The fact is most of the creatures' histories are in non-Vintage formats simply because so few creatures are good in Vintage.  When Vintage is important, like in Morphling's case, I try to emphasize it.  Thanks for the criticism.  I will try to amend the error.

Also, after looking over all of the DTB on the Dojo Archives I have decided to drop Ophidian in favor of Mogg Fanatic.  Thanks for pointing me that way.

[Spizzard]

You drop ophidian but keep goblin piledriver?  These seems off to me.  Ophidian has been used sucessfully in many different decks in vintage.  Piledriver, is useful in one, that has yet to make a large impact.  It is good in t2, but far from broken.  Ophidian should make the list before piledriver.  It was used everywhere when it was legal.

[Puschkin]

Quote Juggernaut/Su Chi, Squee, Serendib Efreet, Morphling, Hypnotic Specter, Kird Ape made the list EXCLUSIVELY on their power in Vintage

Sure, I mean, most of them were never legal in any other format but Type I. That alone should catapult them into the top15. Then again, if Negator & Co would have been in A/B/U, they would perhaps also have been banned from the early day of Type II!?

Its really messed up.

[Magimaster]

Quote (Ric_Flair @ Feb. 26 2003,07:23)Also, after looking over all of the DTB on the Dojo Archives I have decided to drop Ophidian in favor of Mogg Fanatic.  Thanks for pointing me that way.

You know, instead of switching creatures, why not just move Ophidian's ranking down 1 as well as all creatures who ranked above it and stick the Mogg Fanatic in its place.

[Ric_Flair]

My big issue with Ophidian is that it is not as good as other creatures not on the list, namely Shadowmage Infiltrator.  The list was made when, for some odd reason, I did not think of this.  However, now I see the error in my way and have changed things around a bit.  

Meddling Mage has been added at #21, with Mother of Runes going to #24.  

Mogg Fanatic comes in at #17, with Ophidian falling off the list.

This was based on reviewing the dtb from the dojo archive and my own database that includes every PT and GP ever played in, plus Worlds Nationals and Regionals for all ten years.  Plus a lot of debate on this forum.  No other changes were made, as of yet.  All of the input has been fantastic.  I am still looking for a convincing case to be made for Welder and D'nought.  Keep 'em coming.

[Spizzard]

So you are judging specifically on the creature to where shadowmage is better than ophidian.  But ophidian which has made a large impact whereas shadowmage has not.  Ophidian is easier to cast and blue is awesome support color.  I thought that wasn't going to happen because savanah lions is better than jackal pup if you dont consider the color.

[Ric_Flair]

If this list were Magic's 25 High Impact creatures it would look dramatically different.  Ophidian would certainly be on the list as would Serra Angel, Erhnam Djinn, and Juzam.  Impact is certainly one factor, but not the entire thing.  I listed the criteria used in the original post.  Impact is most closely related to historical power, but that is not a one to one comparsion.  Something has historical power if it is powerful over a long period of time and continues to be so.  Ophidian, thus would be historically important (impact), but not historically powerful.  At least, not enough to be on the list.  Can anyone make a case that Ophidian is still good enough to be among the best?  I am not asking rhetorically, I am genuinely curious.  Is Ophidian still used? And if so how good are the decks using it?  Thanks.

[Piggy]

it definitely seems that you are cutting morphling short.  You basically used the ancestral sucks because people run misdirection sometimes argument.  While deed and discard may get rid of him they can get rid of nearly every creature.

[j_orlove]

Quote Is Ophidian still used? And if so how good are the decks using it?

UrPhid and some Gro decks run it currently, and it has seen a tremendous amount of play over its lifetime. Although it might be a little less powerful than the infiltrator, its CC makes it much, much stronger. After all, a deck that's paying 1BU for a creature would rather have psychatog, no?

[Piggy]

you do seem to keep changing criteria

Quote
Also here is a rough percentage allotment of value:
Historical Power: 60%
Vintage Power: 20%
Other Constructed Power: 10%
Efficiency: 10%  

based on this, ophidian kicks the hell out of infiltrator.
I has only made an impact on T2 in any MAJOR way, while ophidian has been used since it's first printing and continues to be used in U/R Phid, emerald alice and random other decks here and there.

[Ric_Flair]

I was just quantifying the criteria.  And I am adding Ophidian.  I am not sure where it is going to go, but it will be on the list.  Can you guys send me deck lists from Vintage that include Ophidian?  Thanks.

Also where should I send the article when it is finished?  Any suggestions.

[jshields]

How could you have forgotten the Tazmanian Devil, himself - Spiritmonger?  He is a 6/6 beast with the abilities of getting a +1+1 counter whenever he deals damage to a creature, B Regenerates, G Changes color to whatever you want and is only 3BG for a whopping beatdown stick that is still amazingly good in the Rock and PT Funk